Time to raise the corporate tax rate?

View

Interesting article in the Irish Times on the corporate tax rate.

I have to say I am surprised this issue hasn't come up before. The state has no money. Raising corporate tax to, let's say, 15% or even 17.5%, would provide the state with the money to:

• invest in infrastructure that industry needs
• fund (joint) research programmes that would be of ultimate benefit to industry and the economy
• fund university courses that train the graduates that hi-tech industries need

Comments anyone?

Agent Smith

Surely its Time to Lower Corporate Tax, to encorage more foregin Investment

amacachi

There's companies who funnel profits through here to avoid tax elsewhere, fairly sure Cadbury do it for example. If we increase the rate of tax will that mean we get more tax from that company? No, we'd get 0% and the couple of dozen jobs they have to have based here would also be gone, and they're far from the only country. GDP is growing because of these foreign companies' investment, without them we're even more screwed.
There's a number of costs that influence where companies set up. In cost terms the only thing we have in our favour in this country is the low corporation tax, while we have high wage costs and transport/shipping costs etc., so increasing the corporation tax will leave us with next to no reasons why companies would set up here.

I'm very surprised that article was printed, it reads like someone whose never heard of the concept of Economics.

Wolfe Tone

No, its the only good thing about our economy.

kev9100

I'm not sure. On the one hand, it does seem rather low when compared to other countires but like it or not, we need foreign investment if we ever want to get out of this recession.

amacachi

kev9100 wrote: »

I'm not sure. On the one hand, it does seem rather low when compared to other countires but like it or not, we need foreign investment if we ever want to get out of this recession.

Even aside from getting more investment I'd be surprised if an increase in the rate produced more than a very, very short term increase in receipts.

nesf

Low taxes encourage growth in a sector, we should be cutting corporation tax (we can't) rather than raising it.

Our major problem is that we're spending too much not that we're taxing too little etc.

ei.sdraob

View wrote: »

Interesting article in the Irish Times on the corporate tax rate.

I have to say I am surprised this issue hasn't come up before. The state has no money. Raising corporate tax to, let's say, 15% or even 17.5%, would provide the state with the money to:

• invest in infrastructure that industry needs
• fund (joint) research programmes that would be of ultimate benefit to industry and the economy
• fund university courses that train the graduates that hi-tech industries need

Comments anyone?

go right ahead

there wont be "industries" left for these graduates

Jaysoose

Only in ireland would an article come out advocating we become "less competitive" than we already are...my head hurts.

Denerick

Ireland has high wages, high personal income taxes (Which are going to get higher) a rather unproductive workforce, a bloated public sector, massive personal, corporate and state debt...

Whats going in our favour? A low corporate tax rate. britain is reducing her tax rate and much of Eastern Europe is following the Irish model and has the lower tax in place. We really shouldn't be looking to damage one of our few competitive advantages left.

oscarBravo

As well as the FDI arguments, there's also the long-suffering SME sector here. A hike in corporation tax is the last thing we need on top of customers with no money and banks that won't lend.

rightwingdub

Corporation tax should be cut to 8%, employers PRSI should be cut to 5% and 6% respectively as well, the costs of doing business in Ireland is far too high and need to be drastically cut.

McDougal

It should be raised to around the 30% mark in line with other developed european countries.

amacachi

McDougal wrote: »

It should be raised to around the 30% mark in line with other developed european countries.

What would that achieve?

McDougal

amacachi wrote: »

What would that achieve?

More tax revenue obviously

oscarBravo

McDougal wrote: »

It should be raised to around the 30% mark in line with other developed european countries.

Why stop there? Why not raise it to 75%? Then we'd increase our corporation tax take six-fold, right?

McDougal

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why stop there? Why not raise it to 75%? Then we'd increase our corporation tax take six-fold, right?

I'd prefer 100% to be honest

oscarBravo

McDougal wrote: »

I'd prefer 100% to be honest

The technical term for which is "economic illiteracy".

McDougal

oscarBravo wrote: »

The technical term for which is "economic illiteracy".

Yes yes I know. Anyone who doesn't always support lower taxation of the rich and the transnationals is a nut.

But in all seriousness we need to push for corporate tax harmonisation accross the EU. 30% should be the rate. That will stop competition between nations and allow increased revenue for states.

oscarBravo

McDougal wrote: »

Yes yes I know. Anyone who doesn't always support lower taxation of the rich and the transnationals is a nut.

No; anyone who thinks companies will stay in business with a higher corporation tax rate hasn't done the sums.

But in all seriousness we need to puch for corporate tax harmonisation accross the EU. 30% should be the rate. That will stop competition between nations and allow increased revenue for states.

...and will cause the large multinationals to shut up shop, laying off thousands, and also force hundreds of SMEs to close. Say goodbye to the tattered remnants of the economy.

McDougal

oscarBravo wrote: »

No; anyone who thinks companies will stay in business with a higher corporation tax rate hasn't done the sums. ...and will cause the large multinationals to shut up shop, laying off thousands, and also force hundreds of SMEs to close. Say goodbye to the tattered remnants of the economy.

That's rubbish. Of course the IBEC types will say if you tax them more then it will be disasterous. And in return for the increase in taxation maybe a deal can be struck where better services like broadband and cheaper ESB and water rates are provided.

oscarBravo

McDougal wrote: »

That's rubbish. Of course the IBEC types will say if you tax them more then it will be disasterous.

I pay corporation tax. Do you?

And in return for the increase in taxation maybe a deal can be struck where better services like broadband and cheaper ESB and water rates are provided.

I'm sure Intel will happily fork over 30% of their profits in return for a discount on their rates.

Not.

Broadband and electricity are not provided by the state. How is the state going to make them cheaper?

Denerick

McDougal wrote: »

It should be raised to around the 30% mark in line with other developed european countries.

Socialists have the uncanny ability to delude themselves into thinking the world works by punishing risk taking and entrepreneurship. The only thing worse than an exploited member of the proletariat is one who hasn't been exploited at all and who is sitting in the dole office.

the_syco

View wrote: »

Comments anyone?

"Spot the shinner" is becoming easier.

McDougal wrote: »

It should be raised to around the 30% mark in line with other developed european countries.

amacachi wrote: »

What would that achieve?

Everyone with half a brain would f**k off to Poland.

Who ever this "Authur" person is should be taken out back and shot :pac:

McDougal

oscarBravo wrote: »

I pay corporation tax. Do you? I'm sure Intel will happily fork over 30% of their profits in return for a discount on their rates.

Not.

Broadband and electricity are not provided by the state. How is the state going to make them cheaper?

No don't pay any corporation tax. And nation states will be held to ransom by the outrageous demands of transnational corporations. Ideally we would have a global rate of corporation tax be we may have to settle for an EU wide one.

And Eircom should be renationalised at once and invested in so me might eventually get a half decent telecommunications service.

Denerick

McDougal wrote: »

And Eircom should be renationalised at once and invested in so me might eventually get a half decent telecommunications service.

Whats so bad with the present system? I was in America and the system is effectively monopolised over there by one or two giant companies. You can't get mobile phone credit in the corner shop, for example.

McDougal

Denerick wrote: »

Whats so bad with the present system? I was in America and the system is effectively monopolised over there by one or two giant companies. You can't get mobile phone credit in the corner shop, for example.

Are you not one of those types always bitching about the quality of broadband and how it makes us uncompetitive?

Denerick

McDougal wrote: »

Are you not one of those types always bitching about the quality of broadband and how it makes us uncompetitive?

No. I've never bitched about the quality of broadband in this country and I'm only intermittently interested in economic competitiveness. However, I am amused that someone who wants corporate taxes to be 100% would have sleepless nights worrying about the quality of the telecommunications industry.

Welease

Denerick wrote: »

No. I've never bitched about the quality of broadband in this country and I'm only intermittently interested in economic competitiveness. However, I am amused that someone who wants corporate taxes to be 100% would have sleepless nights worrying about the quality of the telecommunications industry.

Quality broadband infrastructure will be vital when we are all unemployed and sitting at home watching Youtube videos, wondering why companies don't bother to locate here anymore

McDougal

Denerick wrote: »

No. I've never bitched about the quality of broadband in this country and I'm only intermittently interested in economic competitiveness. However, I am amused that someone who wants corporate taxes to be 100% would have sleepless nights worrying about the quality of the telecommunications industry.

Of course I'm concerned about the dreadful quality of broadband on offer

Denerick

McDougal wrote: »

Of course I'm concerned about the dreadful quality of broadband on offer

Hardly the most pressing issue for a socialist revolutionary, is it?

Sleepy

As far as I can see, the only one's whinging about broadband at this stage are the ones who choose to live in areas where it's economically unviable for anyone to provide quality broadband. Sure, our broadband could be better and cheaper but I don't know of any companies who have ruled out an investment here because the broadband wasn't better...

Still, nothing to worry about in the magic utopia of a harmonised European Corporate Tax of 30% or higher... all the companies will stay in the US, or more likely re-locate to Australia, India or more realistically, the UK who'd pull out of the EU instantly were it to take the direction you espouse...

PKen

View, you say: raising corporate tax will "fund university courses that train the graduates that hi-tech industries need". Guess what, some companies are already doing this in an indirect philanthropic way. Intel and Hewlett Packard have been doing this for years.

McDougal, you seem to trust the "State" (sector) a lot. They haven't done such a great job so far - have they? Do you think that the "State Aparatus" is going to run any better with your lot in power? We are (and would be) governed by the same self serving Civil Service. That's always been the problem. It's a "Stalinist" model that despises economic free thinking and any form of entrepreneurship.

How do you benefit Industry by taxing it further? Where's the incentive? You do understand the term "Incentive" - don't you? Do you also support the proposed ESB price increase? This alone will destroy a lot of small and medium sized business's, puting more on the Dole.

REAL tax revenue (generated by REAL private sector job creation) will ultimately be increased by encouraging Industry - not penalisiing it. Don't forget, all the people employed in Private Industry contribute REAL tax revenue. We are getting it in THAT way. Why punish companies for providing much needed jobs?

To conclude, IBEC, ISME and SFA (employers groups) don't just represent big corporations. SFA in particular, lobby for many who aren't making very much money, e.g. retail shops and restaurants. Some are living below the poverty line. I'm not joking! These types of bussiness's need to be helped - not crucified. In fact, you're income is probably higher than theirs.

oscarBravo

McDougal wrote: »

No don't pay any corporation tax. And nation states will be held to ransom by the outrageous demands of transnational corporations. Ideally we would have a global rate of corporation tax be we may have to settle for an EU wide one.

And Eircom should be renationalised at once and invested in so me might eventually get a half decent telecommunications service.

Admit it: you have a problem with corporations. You don't want an increase in corporation tax, you want everything nationalised.

While you're waiting for your socialist workers' paradise, some of us are trying to run viable businesses and generate employment, and the last thing we need is to be crucified with a hike in corporation tax.

jimmycrackcorm

Sear Op, like you, I too was shocked that electricity flows form negative to positive. Unlike you I have white hair to prove it but hopefully your opening post will lead you to poke your finger into a socket and you will shorten the education process for Electricity / Economics /subjects beginning with the letter E

jimmycrackcorm

Sear Op, like you, I too was shocked that electricity flows form negative to positive. Unlike you I have white hair to prove it but hopefully your opening post will lead you to poke your finger into a socket and you will shorten the education process for Electricity / Economics /subjects beginning with the letter E

Head The Wall

McDougal wrote: »

And Eircom should be renationalised at once and invested in so me might eventually get a half decent telecommunications service.

Eircom has debts of nearly €4Bn, only a fool would recommend nationalising them (that seems to be the govt that you are a fan of). Let them go to the wall and then take control of the local loop.

They also have a large pension deficit (€435m) but thats okay because the ESOT has paid out €750 million to the employees.

It's obvious where the employees interests lie so hopefully they all get laid off

Scofflaw

Denerick wrote: »

Hardly the most pressing issue for a socialist revolutionary, is it?

Depends on their similarity to Citizen Smith...

cordially,
Scofflaw

McDougal

oscarBravo wrote: »

Admit it: you have a problem with corporations. You don't want an increase in corporation tax, you want everything nationalised.

While you're waiting for your socialist workers' paradise, some of us are trying to run viable businesses and generate employment, and the last thing we need is to be crucified with a hike in corporation tax.

We have one of the lowest corporation taxes in the world and the lowest in western europe yet you business people are whinging and moaning as usual.

nesf

McDougal wrote: »

We have one of the lowest corporation taxes in the world and the lowest in western europe yet you business people are whinging and moaning as usual.

Of course they complain, the only low input cost to business here is corporation tax, everything else, the rest: rates, wages etc are all very high for the EU.

McDougal

PKen wrote: »

View, you say: raising corporate tax will "fund university courses that train the graduates that hi-tech industries need". Guess what, some companies are already doing this in an indirect philanthropic way. Intel and Hewlett Packard have been doing this for years.

McDougal, you seem to trust the "State" (sector) a lot. They haven't done such a great job so far - have they? Do you think that the "State Aparatus" is going to run any better with your lot in power? We are (and would be) governed by the same self serving Civil Service. That's always been the problem. It's a "Stalinist" model that despises economic free thinking and any form of entrepreneurship.

How do you benefit Industry by taxing it further? Where's the incentive? You do understand the term "Incentive" - don't you? Do you also support the proposed ESB price increase? This alone will destroy a lot of small and medium sized business's, puting more on the Dole.

REAL tax revenue (generated by REAL private sector job creation) will ultimately be increased by encouraging Industry - not penalisiing it. Don't forget, all the people employed in Private Industry contribute REAL tax revenue. We are getting it in THAT way. Why punish companies for providing much needed jobs?

To conclude, IBEC, ISME and SFA (employers groups) don't just represent big corporations. SFA in particular, lobby for many who aren't making very much money, e.g. retail shops and restaurants. Some are living below the poverty line. I'm not joking! These types of bussiness's need to be helped - not crucified. In fact, you're income is probably higher than theirs.

That's just a rant with no structure to it. It's also completely contradictory.

The idea that tax cuts create jobs is completely without foundation. In fact they cost jobs.

And the problem with the state sector in Ireland is that it is run by Fianna Fáil appointed cronies. And it's not the fault of the ESB enery prices are going up. The energy regulator ordered the increase so that airtricity won't go bust. So it's actually the private sector's fault for the increase.

nesf

McDougal wrote: »

The idea that tax cuts create jobs is completely without foundation. In fact they cost jobs.

Back that up with something more than mere assertion.

Denerick

McDougal wrote: »

The idea that tax cuts create jobs is completely without foundation. In fact they cost jobs.

How? How is that even remotely logical?

If somebody is used to paying 30,000 euro per year in tax, and then suddenly has to pay 50,000 euro per year without an increase in revenues, what happens to that 20,000 euro? Does it get re-invested in the company? Does it reward risk taking and enterprise?

I've said it before and will say it over and over again - the only thing worse than an exploited worker is one who isn't exploited at all.

McDougal

nesf wrote: »

Of course they complain, the only low input cost to business here is corporation tax, everything else, the rest: rates, wages etc are all very high for the EU.

The profits they were making in the last 10 years were also very high compared to the rest of the EU. These IBEC types have been ripping us off for decades. No matter what the situation is they always bitch about wages and costs being too high.

McDougal

Denerick wrote: »

How? How is that even remotely logical?

If somebody is used to paying 30,000 euro per year in tax, and then suddenly has to pay 50,000 euro per year without an increase in revenues, what happens to that 20,000 euro? Does it get re-invested in the company? Does it reward risk taking and enterprise?

I've said it before and will say it over and over again - the only thing worse than an exploited worker is one who isn't exploited at all.

What if that 20,000 extra gets invested by the state in building infrastruture or hiring more teachers or firemen? That is new jobs. Where is the evidence that profits are re-invested in Ireland?

Head The Wall

I am going to say something I have never said before

Stop feeding this troll, he's not even a good one at that

alex73

lololo, Had a good laugh!, The day Ireland raises corporate tax will spell the end of our export industry.

Mr. Presentable

View wrote: »

Interesting article in the Irish Times on the corporate tax rate.

I have to say I am surprised this issue hasn't come up before. The state has no money. Raising corporate tax to, let's say, 15% or even 17.5%, would provide the state with the money to:

• invest in infrastructure that industry needs
• fund (joint) research programmes that would be of ultimate benefit to industry and the economy
• fund university courses that train the graduates that hi-tech industries need

Comments anyone?

12.5% of a little is worth more than 17.5% of nothing.

Our low corporation tax is one of the few reasons we still get foreign investment.

McDougal

alex73 wrote: »

lololo, Had a good laugh!, The day Ireland raises corporate tax will spell the end of our export industry.

Can you provide any evidence to back that claim up?

Sean Bateman

McDougal wrote: »

More tax revenue obviously

McDougal's trolling...raising our CT rate would be ridiculous. Tax receipts would hit the floor.

alex73

McDougal wrote: »

Can you provide any evidence to back that claim up?

100%, But If I did I would be breaching confidential insider information. Lets say that many American companies are here because the Irish goverment has given their word that there will be tax stability. IF that changed it would change the credibility of our economy and basically they would not trust us. TAX is big incentive and companies who have forecasted a certain profit after tax would find there forecasts wrong. You can say what you like but the government has to keep its word on this.