Rifle twist rates

mac80

Always wondered what these rates meant so done a Google to find out

Info here http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-barrel-twist-rates.html

It may enlighten someone else

Is there such a thing as a better twist rate for foxing ?

Mac

tac foley

mac80 wrote: »

Always wondered what these rates meant so done a Google to find out

Info here http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-barrel-twist-rates.html

It may enlighten someone else

Is there such a thing as a better twist rate for foxing ?

Mac

Sir - twist rate does not depend on the thing you are going to shoot, but what you are going to shoot the thing with.

Lighter bullet - slow twist - heavy bullet - fast twist.

What weight bullet you shoot is up to you, but the rate of twist is not a variable. When you buy your rifle what you get is what you get.

ezridax recently posted a very good resume of what effects different ROT have on various bullet weight - do a search and read it.

tac

Tackleberrywho

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - twist rate does not depend on the thing you are going to shoot, but what you are going to shoot the thing with.

Lighter bullet - slow twist - heavy bullet - fast twist.

What weight bullet you shoot is up to you, but the rate of twist is not a variable. When you buy your rifle what you get is what you get.

ezridax recently posted a very good resume of what effects different ROT have on various bullet weight - do a search and read it.

tac

I'm still toying with a 1/8 or 1/10 twist for my .223 so it will fire 55grain and 75 grain.
Currently 1/12 which suits 55grain .223

However if I am to excede 500 yards or so on bunnies I will need a better BC on a par with Hornady 75 grain Match.

or perhaps HPS blitzking.

Using a 28" trueflite barrel.

Lots can comment on FTR, and lots on varminting. I want a hybrid of the best of both rifles in one rifle.

I have not got the spare cash currently to fund a long range varmint rifle.

or I could stay with 1/12 and perfect my 55grainers!!

Cass

Try these threads. Cover some aspects and will (hopefully) give you an understanding of some of the principles.

Then come back and try explain it to me .:D

Thread 1
Thread 2

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

Try these threads. Cover some aspects and will (hopefully) give you an understanding of some of the principles.

Then come back and try explain it to me .:D

Thread 1
Thread 2

I know the scéal Ezri.

the craic is though, sometimes what makes sense is not the correct twist rate!
When is the ultimate barrel length? At some point length will become erdundant.
if I could get away with a 24" barrel over a 26" with different twist rates etc.

What is the optimium powder burn length, and is it proportionate to the amount of powder in the round.

Will a 55 grain group better than it currently is in a 1/12 in a 1/8
What barrel is best suited for 55-75grain
Trueflite say 1/10 but I can get a 1/8 barrel at better money than the 1/10

tomcat220t

For .223 id say CZ got it right with their 1/9 twist....Seen as it will fire 40gr well and still stablise the 75gr ,too.I had a 1/8 twist sako and seemed to shred the 40gr and copper foul ......

mac80

Cheers lads, it all seems a bit complicated but I think I get the basics anyway.

Mac

vixdname

What do ye lads think of 1:12 twist for .223s ? Good \ Bad \ Middle Of The Road ?

johngalway

vixdname wrote: »

What do ye lads think of 1:12 twist for .223s ? Good \ Bad \ Middle Of The Road ?

Typical varminting twist. For target work you'd likely want something faster like 1:8 or 1:9 for target work to throw the longer (read heavier) bullets accurately.

Tackleberrywho

vixdname wrote: »

What do ye lads think of 1:12 twist for .223s ? Good \ Bad \ Middle Of The Road ?

I'm currently using 1/12 with 55grains and they are serious accurate in that configuration out of a 26" barrel. I have posted several pics previously of tight groups, almost 1 hole @100 yards

It's when you want to go further than 400 that the BC of a 75 grain is a good deal better than the 55grain.

I could not get 75 grains to group out of my 1/12

I'm have afraid to go messing with my .223 as she is just the business on bunnies and foxes out to 350 or so.

Merch

Interesting stuff

virminhunter

tomcat220t wrote: »

For .223 id say CZ got it right with their 1/9 twist....Seen as it will fire 40gr well and still stablise the 75gr ,too.I had a 1/8 twist sako and seemed to shred the 40gr and copper foul ......

i've a varmint kevlar too, but i've been told that a 40grain bullet is to fast for a 1in9 twist i.e. it will burn out the barrel, can anyone comment a bit more on this?

It wasn't me!

virminhunter wrote: »

i've a varmint kevlar too, but i've been told that a 40grain bullet is to fast for a 1in9 twist i.e. it will burn out the barrel, can anyone comment a bit more on this?

The only thing that will stop a barrel getting shot out is not pulling the trigger. .223 isn't a hot round, so I wouldn't worry about slightly accelerated barrel wear when it's the difference between 7,000 rounds and 8,000 rounds.

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

............the craic is though, sometimes what makes sense is not the correct twist rate!

What?

How can what is right and works, NOT be the right option. Of course unless you're buying it for someone you intend to shoot against.

When is the ultimate barrel length? At some point length will become redundant.

Personally 34" would be the absolute limit, and even at that you are not getting the return for the extra inches. I would go no further than 32". Seems the optimal lenght.

What is the optimium powder burn length,........

The HPS target ammo that most LRT shooters use seems to be best suited to 30" barrels. Now i'm going on performance and personal experience here so there is a chance i'm talking through my a**.

..............and is it proportionate to the amount of powder in the round.

You've lost me again.

If HPS load their ammo for 30" barrels then OF COURSE the amount of powder is suited or "proportionate". Again, as above, why would HPS try out many different loads then use something "wrong" or "disproportionate".

I don't understand you're point.

Trueflite say 1/10 but I can get a 1/8 barrel at better money than the 1/10

So you'd go for the wrong barrel, against the advice of the experts, because its cheaper. :rolleyes:

tomcat220t wrote:

For .223 id say CZ got it right with their 1/9 twist...............

CZ, i thought, come with a 1:12 twist rate, with the 1:9 only on request. Except with the American (Kevlar/H&S precision stock) version that comes standard with 1:9. OTC.

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

What?

How can what is right and works, NOT be the right option. Of course unless you're buying it for someone you intend to shoot against.
What i mean was for a weird example, the 38 Special Wad Cutter. looks like sh*t but is a tack driver of a pistol calibre.
Some guys have got 1/8 Tikkas and score and group quite well, even at the longer ranges.



Personally 34" would be the absolute limit, and even at that you are not getting the return for the extra inches. I would go no further than 32". Seems the optimal lenght.



The HPS target ammo that most LRT shooters use seems to be best suited to 30" barrels. Now i'm going on performance and personal experience here so there is a chance i'm talking through my a**.



You've lost me again.

If HPS load their ammo for 30" barrels then OF COURSE the amount of powder is suited or "proportionate". Again, as above, why would HPS try out many different loads then use something "wrong" or "disproportionate".
I have HPS coming but I never specified that I was using a 26" barrel


I don't understand you're point.
In All calibres is 30-32 optimum? Trueflite sell .223 in 28" for example!!



So you'd go for the wrong barrel, against the advice of the experts, because its cheaper. :rolleyes: 2 Custom rifle builders who are also shooters said i'd be better off 1/8



CZ, i thought, come with a 1:12 twist rate, with the 1:9 only on request. Except with the American (Kevlar/H&S precision stock) version that comes standard with 1:9. OTC.

I'm just wondering is there a magic combination, barrel length & twist, and ammo grainage that can be short enough to carry in the field 26 with a mod on is just bearable, and can handle a wide variety of ammo grainage.

Hopefully HPS will be able to supply me with 75grain .223's for long stuff. i'm getting 55grain stuff next weekend for 0-400 ish.

I hate typing as sometimes it can be difficult to get my point across!:D
Hopefully you get what I mean now; and don't think I've totally lost the plot:D:D

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I'm just wondering is there a magic combination, barrel length & twist, and ammo grainage that can be short enough to carry in the field 26 with a mod on is just bearable, and can handle a wide variety of ammo grainage.

YES.

Listen to the people that make the barrels. If they tell you that you should have a 1:12 because you intend to shoot 40-53gr (.223) then get a 1:12. NOT a 1:8 because its "cheaper".

Very (very, very0 basic principle. The lighter the bullet and the faster the MV, the slower the twist rate.

i.e - 155gr (.309) doing 2950 -3050fps will work well in a 1:12 and very well in a 1:13 barrel.

Hopefully HPS will be able to supply me with 75grain .223's for long stuff.

I'm sure they will make any grainage you want.

i'm getting 55grain stuff next weekend for 0-400 ish.

Delighted for ya.

I hate typing as sometimes it can be difficult to get my point across!:D

Correct.

Hopefully you get what I mean now; and don't think I've totally lost the plot:D:D

No and i do.

Sorry you had you're chance and ya blew it.

It wasn't me!

No, there's no all round optimum in terms of barrel length and twist rate. Even in a given calibre, for a given task, there's no optimum, merely a series of trade-offs and compromises.

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

YES.

Listen to the people that make the barrels. If they tell you that you should have a 1:12 because you intend to shoot 40-53gr (.223) then get a 1:12. NOT a 1:8 because its "cheaper".

Very (very, very0 basic principle. The lighter the bullet and the faster the MV, the slower the twist rate.

i.e - 155gr (.309) doing 2950 -3050fps will work well in a 1:12 and very well in a 1:13 barrel.



I'm sure they will make any grainage you want.



Delighted for ya.



Correct.



No and i do.

Sorry you had you're chance and ya blew it.

lol

I might need your help to spot for me Next week when I get these babies. I might try that chart you know who makes, see what happens 55grainers @600 on a calm day. One 20 or so mind, not all my new ammo.

Hopefully they will behave in a mannerly way out to 300/400.
We shall see after that!

Cass

It wasn't me! wrote: »

No, there's no all round optimum in terms of barrel length and twist rate. Even in a given calibre, for a given task, there's no optimum, merely a series of trade-offs and compromises.

Don't agree with that.

There are limitations due to ammo performances, barrel performances, etc, etc. Therefore eveything we shoot is done at optimum levels.

i.e - The best obtainable results with specific/given conditions and equipment.




Some are simply "more" optimum than others though.

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

Don't agree with that.

There are limitations due to ammo performances, barrel performances, etc, etc. Therefore eveything we shoot is done at optimum levels.

i.e - The best obtainable results with specific/given conditions and equipment.




Some are simply "more" optimum than others though.

The optimum 26" barrel twist and HPS ammo combination to create red mist @ 600 yards ??

It wasn't me!

ezridax wrote: »

Don't agree with that.

There are limitations due to ammo performances, barrel performances, etc, etc. Therefore eveything we shoot is done at optimum levels.

i.e - The best obtainable results with specific/given conditions and equipment.




Some are simply "more" optimum than others though.

See, that's the thing. Let's take barrel length and profile for a minute. A longer barrel leaves a gun muzzle heavy. This is a problem for both prone and position shooters and for rested shooters, as it causes issues with recoil and tracking, and barrel flip in the various positions, which can cause wild shots in and of itself. However, you do get velocity advantages from it, and if shooting with irons, sight base extension advantages. It's also much heavier overall if you're shooting positions or need to make weight limits. You can fix this part with a lighter profile (which is why so many are available) but you can then run into heating issues as well as increased issues with barrel flip. It's all a series of trade-offs.

tac foley

It wasn't me! wrote: »

See, that's the thing. Let's take barrel length and profile for a minute. A longer barrel leaves a gun muzzle heavy. This is a problem for both prone and position shooters and for rested shooters, as it causes issues with recoil and tracking, and barrel flip in the various positions, which can cause wild shots in and of itself. However, you do get velocity advantages from it, and if shooting with irons, sight base extension advantages. It's also much heavier overall if you're shooting positions or need to make weight limits. You can fix this part with a lighter profile (which is why so many are available) but you can then run into heating issues as well as increased issues with barrel flip. It's all a series of trade-offs.

Today I saw and shot a .223 Remington Model 700 tactical, in a Bell & Carson tactical stock, fitted with a 20 inch barrel, that shot forty consecutive bullets into a single ragged hole of considerably less than half an inch at 100m. The rounds were 70gr Match. The owner then shot ten rounds with 55gr bullets into an even smaller-sized group. The ROT was 1:9.

The gun had less than 200 shots from new.

tac

Tackleberrywho

tac foley wrote: »

Today I saw and shot a .223 Remington Model 700 tactical, in a Bell & Carson tactical stock, fitted with a 20 inch barrel, that shot forty consecutive bullets into a single ragged hole of considerably less than half an inch at 100m. The rounds were 70gr Match. The owner then shot ten rounds with 55gr bullets into an even smaller-sized group. The ROT was 1:9.

The gun had less than 200 shots from new.

tac

That sounds like what i want !!

Cass

It wasn't me! wrote: »

See, that's the thing. Let's take barrel length and profile for a minute. A longer barrel leaves a gun muzzle heavy. This is a problem for both prone and position shooters and for rested shooters, as it causes issues with recoil and tracking, and barrel flip in the various positions, which can cause wild shots in and of itself. However, you do get velocity advantages from it, and if shooting with irons, sight base extension advantages. It's also much heavier overall if you're shooting positions or need to make weight limits. You can fix this part with a lighter profile (which is why so many are available) but you can then run into heating issues as well as increased issues with barrel flip. It's all a series of trade-offs.

Barrel flip can be rectified with training and proper positioning behind the rifle. If you have the centre line of the rifle in line with your point of contact (shoulder) rather than above it then this act alone will reduce barrel flip. This comes back to my point of "optimum" equipment. Have the best/proper stock and butt pad.

In relation to barrel length. Common sense should rule. Do not consider a 40" barrel. No additional benefits and as you said it would be muzzle heavy. In FTR a 30" - 32" barrel would give you the best possible performance will keeping within your weight limit and avoiding "tipping" due to overly heavy muzzle.

Suppose its a matter of perspective. An 18lb FTR rifle or 22lb F-0pen rifle and the entailing setup/rig would have no useful features for a .22 prone/3P shooter. Vice Versa. I imagine that while some crossover between the different disciplines does occur it is of a relatively low level/amount.

I don't see it as a trade off more a matter of utilising the best equipment i can get/afford. There will always be "something" better or something that improves your existing setup. Until i can get it or someone invents it i use the best i can.

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

The optimum 26" barrel twist and HPS ammo combination to create red mist @ 600 yards ??

You may want to consider that differently. Pick a bullet or particular set of grainages (depending on the primary use of the rifle). Then choose the best barrel twist rate to suit the bullet choice. So if you intend to shoot with 65gr up to 75gr a 1:10 or so. If you want to do target shooting (in .223) with say a 90gr consider a 1:9 or even 1:8 1/2.

So have a think about the type of bullet you would like to shoot then select the barrel and twist rate. Not pick a barrel with a certain twist rate then try find a bullet to suit.

Just a suggestion, nothing more.

tac foley

As a quasi-furriner, I'm having a bit of trouble getting my head around the constant referring to 'grainage'. It's a term I've never encountered before - anywhere.

If you mean 'bullet weight', why not just say 'bullet weight'? Instead of a 'heavier grainage bullet', why not just 'a heavier bullet'?

We all know [don't we?] that bullets are weighed in grains, not pounds or kilo's...

tac

Tackleberrywho

tac foley wrote: »

As a quasi-furriner, I'm having a bit of trouble getting my head around the constant referring to 'grainage'. It's a term I've never encountered before - anywhere.

If you mean 'bullet weight', why not just say 'bullet weight'? Instead of a 'heavier grainage bullet', why not just 'a heavier bullet'?

We all know [don't we?] that bullets are weighed in grains, not pounds or kilo's...

tac

I think I "coined" the word grainage !
I work with a lot of americans hence the poor use of English language!

Why can't we talk in Grams and mm instead, or even angstroms, terms I am more familiar with ; - ) (that is a wink buy the way & It's a bit retorical of me to ask!)

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

As a quasi-furriner, I'm having a bit of trouble getting my head around the constant referring to 'grainage'. It's a term I've never encountered before - anywhere.

Yes you have, here.

If you mean 'bullet weight', why not just say 'bullet weight'? Instead of a 'heavier grainage bullet', why not just 'a heavier bullet'?

We all know [don't we?] that bullets are weighed in grains, not pounds or kilo's...

tac

If i ask a lad at the range, "What grainage bullets do you use". He will know exactly what i want to know and answer appropriately.

So its not a case of knowing or not knowing, its a colloquialism of sorts. Used in casual conversation. Everyone knows what it refers to so an explanation or "exact" wording is not necessary. You will find alot of "wrong" words as you view these pages.

Cass

ezridax wrote: »

CZ, i thought, come with a 1:12 twist rate, with the 1:9 only on request. Except with the American (Kevlar/H&S precision stock) version that comes standard with 1:9. OTC.

I owe a HUGE apology to tomcat220t.

Your comments about the CZ having a 1:9 were spot on. As above i made mention that the CZ 527 comes with a 1:12 twist unless specifically ordered from the manufacturer with the 1:9 or by buying the American version.

It got me thinking. The dealer told me mine was the 1:12 twist and like a fool i took his word for it "blindly". However it has been playing on my mind so 5 minutes ago i got her out and done the "rod test" on it. Turns out it IS a 1:9 twist and just made my whole train of thought on the "appropriate" bullet weight to use for it.

I have been told by other users of the 527 (kevlar/H&S stock) that it can take "some time" to bed in. However with the exception of 50gr AE hollow points (flat base) i have not found a truely great round to suit the rifle. I am now thinking that in limiting myself to (max) 55gr bullets to suit the 1:12 twist was a mistake and i can start trying a few "heavier" bullets. As a .223 "virgin" what are ye lads using in the "mid-range" weight bullets in similar twist rate rifles?



PS - tomcat220t, although i did not correct your post it could be seen that i was, hence the apology. :cool:

tomcat220t

Apology not required .....I learn something new everyday ,myself.Thanks any way !

virminhunter

while the subject of cz's is up i thought i'd ask this question, is a 24inch barrel with a 1:9 twist to short a barrel to stabalise 60grain plus bullets, i've only tried one box of 62grain bullets through my varmint kevlar but these didn't group as well as any of the 55grain or under rounds i've tried so far looking at the groupings in the following reviews seem to reinforce my suspicions...

http://www.snipercentral.com/cz527.htm
http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/cz_0728/

Tackleberrywho

20" 1/12 .308 Remington VTR 100 yards

Cass

virminhunter wrote: »

............ is a 24inch barrel with a 1:9 twist to short a barrel to stabalise 60grain plus bullets, .........

The article seems thorough and to support the ammo i and others are currently using, but i will let you know in a few days when i've tried a few different ones. I was hestitant to push anything over 55gr through the rifle thinking it was a 1:12. Will try it out now though.

With regards to the lower weight bullet. I agree that i am getting good results wih certain bullets, but not with all them and even some p**s poor results with "higher" end (price wise) bullets. I will try some higher weight ones then decide whether to stay with lower or higher weighted bullets.

virminhunter

cheers ezridax i'll keep an eye out to see how you get on with it, nice grouping there tack if i was a stag in the slieve blooms i'd be makin meself scarce come sept 1st...:D