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Future Civil Servants will be second rate

  • 06-08-2010 10:17AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭


    Classic :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0806/1224276311101.html

    THE CHAIRMAN of the Higher Public Servants Remuneration Committee has voiced concerns that future generations of top civil servants may be “second division” material.
    Tony O’Brien said Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan, who last week announced the Government was to open up top public service jobs to private-sector applicants, was going to be disappointed. “The pay differentials are still enormous. You may get the odd one but by and large you won’t.”
    Mr O’Brien, who stood down as chairman of CC this week, said the ability and work rate of some secretaries general, such as Dermot McCarthy in the Department of An Taoiseach, was phenomenal. “And they have great minds.”
    Speaking to The Irish Times , he said it was the culture 30 years ago that the cream of the country went for public sector jobs. However, he said, the private sector would “attract the cream in the future”.
    “I’d worry about the future, about 15 years’ time. They won’t be the cream of the nation. They’ll be the second division, and that will be a challenge for the Government.”
    He said his committee at first looked at how pay rates compared with the private sector. Pay rates at the top of the private sector were way ahead of those in the public sector. “Also, private sector pensions at the top are very attractive and the public sector guys know that very well.”
    He said the case for higher pay for top civil servants had been weakened by the fact their quality was not an issue. “I think it will be in the future.”
    Since the downturn, the committee looked at pay rates in comparable European countries. It found Irish rates compared favourably.
    Mr O’Brien said it was his view that people were motivated by the power and influence that came with being a senior public servant but he still believed “Ireland Inc” would suffer in the longer term because the pay differentials were too great.
    Asked about the implications of secretaries general getting paid more than their ministers, he said he had discussed this with a number of ministers. “They certainly don’t like it but they might wear it if they had to.” He said senior ministers and taoisigh could earn more money after they left office. “But the poor old secretary generals don’t.”
    On balance, he felt the quality of the thinking of a secretary general was vital to the State’s interests and, “we should pay premium rates to get the best talent we can”.
    He said the committee’s examination indicated the cuts in private sector pay had been overstated in the media. “The cuts weren’t anything like the folklore would suggest, while in the public service they were very significant.”
    Mr O’Brien, who was on the board of Anglo Irish Bank as a non-executive director for five years and chairman for four years up to 2002, also spoke about his time there.
    “During my reign it was a winning formula,” he said. The Anglo team were “the envy of the banking world” and seemed invincible. “Directors’ loans, I can tell you, were modest when I was there.” He said that during his period there management knew that a bank needed a diversified loan portfolio. “They didn’t heed that ultimately. They fell for what they said they shouldn’t do.” The bank was “wedded to property”.
    Mr O’Brien, who also sat on the board of CRH, said the company, which sold cement to the Irish market, was more cautious about the property boom. “Brian Griffin and his guys would say, ‘something’s got to give here,’ and we’d say, ‘come on, enjoy it.’ But they were issuing warnings to their board, saying forecasts had to be toned back. But the banks weren’t. They were just fuelling it.”
    He said the former Anglo chief executive and chairman, Seán FitzPatrick, was a “fairly autocratic” manager. “Success gave him added freedom and licence. And the shareholders loved him. I chaired four agms and he got a standing ovation at each of them. It was a great shame that it went wrong with Anglo. It was a lovely story for so long. My heart would go out to Seán


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Funkfield


    Why is this classic?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Seems like stating the obvious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    he said it was the culture 30 years ago that the cream of the country went for public sector jobs

    Cream of the country? Cream of the country! :rolleyes: :confused: :cool: :pac:

    ffs Elephants s***k is creamier


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tora Bora


    Tora Bora wrote: »
    Classic :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    He said the former Anglo chief executive and chairman, Seán FitzPatrick, was a “fairly autocratic” manager. “Success gave him added freedom and licence. And the shareholders loved him. I chaired four agms and he got a standing ovation at each of them. It was a great shame that it went wrong with Anglo. It was a lovely story for so long. My heart would go out to Seán


    Classicer and classicer:cool::cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    I can't believe the neck of this f**ker, cream of the crop?? This is the same cream of the crop which presided over the period where we developed one of the most expensive public services on planet Earth, with very little to show for it in terms of improved services. What does he expect, to be rewarded for failure? The arrogance in his statement is almost unbelieveable.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Tora Bora wrote: »
    He said the former Anglo chief executive and chairman, Seán FitzPatrick, was a “fairly autocratic” manager. “Success gave him added freedom and licence. And the shareholders loved him. I chaired four agms and he got a standing ovation at each of them. It was a great shame that it went wrong with Anglo. It was a lovely story for so long. My heart would go out to Seán
    Just read this bit at the end, sweet jesus is it April 1st or something?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tora Bora


    Funkfield wrote: »
    Why is this classic?

    Classic :rolleyes::D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    God almighty.
    Where do we get these people?

    Firstly I hardly think that sitting on Anglo's board, or in fact, doing anything that involved you with Anglo's senior management in the last 10-15 years recommends you as an authority on anything except what NOT to do.

    Secondly "the poor old secretary generals"??My heart bleeds for them - god knows it's hard enough having to survive on a salary of 100,000eur or more for a good section of your career. Terribly tough.

    As for what he says about CRH....I'm a bit disgusted to be honest. CRH are one of the country's most successful businesses, run by people with a bit of cop on. This man has just shown himself up as complete idiot - "come on, enjoy it"???What? Thankfully at least there were some people out there who had the common sense to tell idiots like this fellow where to go...or to ignore them completely.

    He should also look up the definition of autocratic. Hardly a compliment on the individual, his form of "ruling" or his methods for success.And success may have given Sean Fitzpatrick added licence and freedom, but if Sean Fitzpatrick had behaved like he did here in any other country, he would either have simply not been allowed to carry out half of what he did due to tighter regulation, or he would now find himself in front of a judge facing a jail term.The combination of the Irish method of governing, and someone who is "Autocratic" and in charge of a bank, led to the disaster that is Anglo.It wasn't a lovely story. It was a complete sham, with crooked dealings going on at every opportunity behind the scenes, and if this man is stupid enough to believe that it was "a lovely story" I would have to seriously question his intelligence. And more worryingly, that there are others around him that truly believe Anglo was great and things were wonderful and it's a "shame" that things went wrong. Has it not occurred to him that Sean Fitzpatrick is the author of all his own problems?

    And if it comes to that, why on earth is this guy chairing any committee to do with anything, if this is the kind of rubbish he spouts, and worse, believes??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Funkfield


    Classic? Just makes me mad.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Top civil servants work very hard and tend to be very bright to get to where they are.

    Please carry on with the lynching...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Denerick wrote: »
    Top civil servants work very hard and tend to be very bright to get to where they are.

    Please carry on with the lynching...


    hahaha

    are you performing a one man show soon ?, you are very very good


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Denerick wrote: »
    Top civil servants work very hard and tend to be very bright to get to where they are.

    Please carry on with the lynching...

    No doubt they are. My post was all for lynching the idiot who was quoted.

    However this attitude of "we have to pay the best to get the brightest" is completely ridiculous. And I apply the same to the consultants in hospitals, I might add. We cannot afford to pay huge sums of money. That man is not taking into account a large number of external factors either - it may well be that top people in private companies find there wage packet a lot less healthy after the country gets through this mess...or looking around at the havoc that's been wreaked in the private sector, decide the public is safer....

    Either way, the money is no longer there. What's the point in cutting away through the lower echelons of the public service to save money, then completely wiping it out by paying a select number of individuals a hugely increased wage?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tora Bora


    Tora Bora wrote: »
    Classic :rolleyes::rolleyes:


    He said the committee’s examination indicated the cuts in private sector pay had been overstated in the media. “The cuts weren’t anything like the folklore would suggest, while in the public service they were very significant.”

    But lads, you just have to admit, this guy is good, in fact he is very good.
    Give him a one man comdey show at the O2 and he will fill it for a month:P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tora Bora


    Funkfield wrote: »
    Classic? Just makes me mad.

    Fcukin classic:D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    danbohan wrote: »
    hahaha

    are you performing a one man show soon ?, you are very very good


    This is indicative of an absurd attitude that all public workers are idiots. I've no illusions that the civil service is awash with fools from the lowest clerical to the highest department head and believe me, I have plenty of stories to tell about this.

    But there ARE plenty of them working hard and doing their job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    Tora Bora wrote: »
    “I’d worry about the future, about 15 years’ time. They won’t be the cream of the nation. They’ll be the second division, and that will be a challenge for the Government.”
    How many top civil servants studied MBA instead of Greek language?
    How many top civil servants had parents working in civil service?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,612 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Can we please just shoot him?

    I'm sure it'd save the state money somehow...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Can we please just shoot him?

    I'm sure it'd save the state money somehow...
    'Take them out and shoot them' (C) Michael O'Leary


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 379 ✭✭JuniorB


    Tora Bora wrote: »
    . “Directors’ loans, I can tell you, were modest when I was there.”

    Sounds like a certain ex-politician from Mayo on the Late Late...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,457 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Tora Bora wrote: »
    It was a great shame that it went wrong with Anglo. It was a lovely story for so long.

    I love the way he makes it sound like the fact that it went wrong was completely out of their control. No actually love is the wrong word, resent is more like it.
    Sleepy wrote: »
    Can we please just shoot him?

    I'm sure it'd save the state money somehow...

    Waste of a bullet I reckon. You're overlooking the opportunity cost, that bullet could be used to shoot somebody fast. Just push him off a cliff, that costs nothing.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Anyone see Labours Pat Rabbitte licking arse on previous primetime discussing nationalization of semistates?

    "Yee at RTE should be paid more than ESB..."


    makes me ****ing mad hearing that ****e, people get paid what others are willing and able to pay not what some ****ing leftie says they are worth

    and the ****ing cheek of Labour commenting on Eircom nationalisation, it was their involvement in it and campaigning for the union staff to pay no taxes on their shares, that led to Eircom being cannibalised by both their new owners and their employees


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Denerick wrote: »
    Top civil servants work very hard and tend to be very bright to get to where they are.

    Please carry on with the lynching...
    Would you call Patrick Neary bright? Not trying to take the p**s but his case is quite staggering, he failed spectacularly and was rewarded with an enormous payoff and terrific pension which most of us can only dream of. There is no accountability for failure. If somebody is massively qualified and has a proven track record at running large organisations wll then fair enough, give them a good salary of course, but there should also be concrete targets which are pay related and real consequences for failing (getting removed from the job without a lottery type payoff maybe?).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    mickeyk wrote: »
    Would you call Patrick Neary bright? Not trying to take the p**s but his case is quite staggering, he failed spectacularly and was rewarded with an enormous payoff and terrific pension which most of us can only dream of....

    I never bought into the "light touch" approach to regulation, nor was I ever a believer in self-regulation. That means that I was against the approach that was taken under Neary.

    But it is unfair to isolate him and heap all the blame on him. He was simply giving expression to the prevailing attitudes in financial and political circles. The business community, particularly the adventurers among their number, actively sought freedom from "the dead hand of bureaucracy" and many politicians were persuaded to go along with them (McCreevy springs to mind).

    One man is being scapegoated, and I go along with the view that he must carry some of the culpability. But we should see the environment in which he operated, and recognise that we have a large herd of goats to scape.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tora Bora


    Cream of the crop, rose to the top of FAS:eek:
    In fact they were creaming it by all accounts:p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,639 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    future civil servants to be second rate?

    That's good then, better than the 3rd rate ones we have now



    *gets coat


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    I never bought into the "light touch" approach to regulation, nor was I ever a believer in self-regulation. That means that I was against the approach that was taken under Neary.

    But it is unfair to isolate him and heap all the blame on him. He was simply giving expression to the prevailing attitudes in financial and political circles. The business community, particularly the adventurers among their number, actively sought freedom from "the dead hand of bureaucracy" and many politicians were persuaded to go along with them (McCreevy springs to mind).

    One man is being scapegoated, and I go along with the view that he must carry some of the culpability. But we should see the environment in which he operated, and recognise that we have a large herd of goats to scape.
    P Breathnach it was the environment in which he operated that I was trying to highlight, I'm sure Mr Neary is a perfect gentleman, and a very intelligent one at that. That does not mean he should be excused for the failure that he presided over, he was not solely to blame nor did I try to say he was. My gripe is that there was no penalty whatsoever for his failure, in fact he was richly rewarded with a golden handshake and bumper pension, much the same as Roddy Molloy, who presided over the most outrageous waste imaginable while at the helm at FAS. If these people want to hold on to their enormous salaries and perks, at least lets have some accountability when they are not up to the job. For the record I'm sure there are many top CS's who are excellent, and would command good money in the Private Sector, but there are also those on obscene salaries that can't be justified, and probably never could be justified. For this man to come out with this nonsense when we are in the grip of the most severe recession in living memory with near 14% unemployment is distasteful at best, and downright arrogant if you ask me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,612 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    future civil servants to be second rate?

    That's good then, better than the 3rd rate ones we have now



    *gets coat
    I was just about to post that...

    Now, forgive me if I'm wrong on the details of this, my knowledge of the American political system was nearly entirely gleaned from the West Wing but aren't the top Civil Servants there paid significantly below the salaries they can attract in the private sector?

    Surely it can only be of benefit to the country to have it's public servants be those civic minded individuals who are happy to work for a lower salary in order to have an opportunity to change the country for the better? True, they have a financial incentive in terms of their increased value in the private sector after a decade or two spent working for the state but I'd imagine that would be replicated here too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    You would be wrong there sleepy, we seemingly have to pay them extortionate amounts of money so they won't be dipping their hands in the pot.

    Obviously this is not working so we should be paying them more!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    mickeyk wrote: »
    P Breathnach it was the environment in which he operated that I was trying to highlight, I'm sure Mr Neary is a perfect gentleman, and a very intelligent one at that. That does not mean he should be excused for the failure that he presided over, he was not solely to blame nor did I try to say he was. My gripe is that there was no penalty whatsoever for his failure....

    In half a paragraph you move from recognising that Neary operated in a particular environment to focusing on his failure as if he were solely responsible for the banking crisis.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    In half a paragraph you move from recognising that Neary operated in a particular environment to focusing on his failure as if he were solely responsible for the banking crisis.
    Neary is the driver that should have pressed the brake pedal in the out of control car.

    Car is a write off and he got out unscathed with a big payout


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