Dublin traffic lights - pedestrian signals

mambo

There are a lot of pedestrian crossings in Dublin (maybe all of them?) where if you DON'T press the pedestrian crossing button, then the "red man" never turns green.

When I'm out cycling I see loads of such junctions, with pedestrians standing like eejits waiting for the "red man" to turn green, but it never does because no-one pressed the button, and they end up just "taking a chance" and crossing against the red man.

And you have to press the button BEFORE the traffic gets a red light, otherwise the red man never changes to green, even though it is completely safe to cross.

If this deliberate, or a cock-up? Why would the pedestrian lights be set up this way? It's either safe to cross or it isn't, why should having pressed the button or not make a difference.

Cookie_Monster

because having a pedestrian cycle every minute or 90 seconds when it not need backs traffic up hugely and is one of the most annoying things about driving.

The lights are set up sensibly, ie they don't change unless requested.

mambo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because having a pedestrian cycle every minute or 90 seconds when it not need backs traffic up hugely and is one of the most annoying things about driving.

The lights are set up sensibly, ie they don't change unless requested.

The lights are changing every N seconds anyway, but when the traffic gets a red light, and it is SAFE for pedestrians to cross:

* if the button was previously pressed, the pedestrian signal turns green
* if the button was not previously pressed, the pedestrian signal remains red (even though it is safe to cross)

Red Alert

It will have an effect on some crossings where there might be a green arrow straight ahead but no left arrow for the duration of the pedestrian phase.

a_ominous

This is one of my hobby horses - I do not understand why the people who installed traffic lights seem not cater for pedestrians in a capital city in their traffic plans.
When I started working in city centre there were no lights for pedestrians to cross Baggott St to Merrion Row and lots of other very busy junctions. If lights are installed in city centre, there should _always_ be a cycle for pedestrians to cross. That should also make vehicular traffic flows more predictable too.

I thought the countdown timers at the major junctions for pedestrian crossing was great - if I knew I would only have to wait 15 seconds to get a green, I'd be less inclined to cross when there were no cars.

mambo

Red Alert wrote: »

It will have an effect on some crossings where there might be a green arrow straight ahead but no left arrow for the duration of the pedestrian phase.

I'm talking about junctions where pressing the button doesn't have ANY affect on the lights that the TRAFFIC gets, they just go in their normal sequence.

All the button does is cause the the red man to turn to a green man when it's safe to cross. If you haven't pressed the button, the red man STAYS red, even though the traffic is stopped anyway, and it is SAFE TO CROSS.

Cookie_Monster

mambo wrote: »

I'm talking about junctions where pressing the button doesn't have ANY affect on the lights that the TRAFFIC gets, they just go in their normal sequence.

All the button does is cause the the red man to turn to a green man when it's safe to cross. If you haven't pressed the button, the red man STAYS red, even though the traffic is stopped anyway, and it is SAFE TO CROSS.

perception. Its all about keeping it standard, you always press the button and it always changes only if you do. People (society) are too stupid to have it mixed and matched

steve-o

The current system is dangerous as well as stupid. You arrive at a junction and want to cross. You see the traffic is stopped. The stupid system means you'll have to wait a full cycle for a green man, even if it is perfectly safe to cross. But you don't know how long you have left to cross. Sometimes you can see the green light for the traffic that's moving and know if it's safe to go, but many people just risk it and go for it anyway.

Casey_81

I have to say that I pay more attention to the lights for the traffic than the green man anyway..
doesnt take long to learn the sequence of lights for any junction and when its safe to cross

HonalD

mambo wrote: »

I'm talking about junctions where pressing the button doesn't have ANY affect on the lights that the TRAFFIC gets, they just go in their normal sequence.

All the button does is cause the the red man to turn to a green man when it's safe to cross. If you haven't pressed the button, the red man STAYS red, even though the traffic is stopped anyway, and it is SAFE TO CROSS.

Not sure that you are making your example any clearer - sorry. From your post, it appears that you are referring to traffic signals with pedestrian phases across one approach which doesn't affect traffic turning on other approaches - hopefully this is correct (e.g. on a dual carriageway, a half crossing across an approach that is on red but with other traffic turning elsewhere in the junction.)

I suppose the easy answer to the question is that the timings for pedestrians include "green man" time (a) plus "amber man time" (b) or "black out time" plus a safety "all red" time (c). If pedestrian crossings show the green man automatically (without anyone pressing the button) then the signal cycle time (total time to change) has to include (a+b+c). Otherwise, the signal cycle time only has to cater for the length of the red light on the approach.

Everytime there is no person crossing the cycle time would be un-necessarily higher than what is required and the junction would not be running an optimum cycle time.

However, best practice suggests that in areas of high pedestrian activity (City Centres) that the benefit of not having to press a button outweights the disbenfit to vehicles of a potential higher cycletime.

Finally, the above explanation doesn't excuse low priority to pedestrians! Hope this helps!

HonalD

Casey_81 wrote: »

I have to say that I pay more attention to the lights for the traffic than the green man anyway..
doesnt take long to learn the sequence of lights for any junction and when its safe to cross

Be careful, if the system is truely "adaptive" then there is no way of knowing when it is "safe" to cross - Remember 1, look for a safe place etc. etc. etc. :cool:

Bazzer2

2. Don't hurry - stop and wait.......

mikemac

Such a catchy tune

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEssgMQ1O_k

Simon201

tbh I just don't know why the US way wouldn't work here or anywhere else in the world. It seems to work for millions of Americans where you can move through a junction on the green light if you're going straight. But, you give way to pedestrians if you're turning left or right. Just watch a junction in New York to see this in action. It generally works quite well I think because pedestrians waiting to cross will go in a big bunch and then a few cars will go through. Maybe another pedestrian etc after that.

Unlike here where the big bunch, or maybe even one pedestrian crosses in 5 or 10 seconds but you have to wait another 25 seconds while no one crosses! Either that or the pedestrian presses the button banging it continuously like his life depends on it, crosses cos there's suddenly a break in the traffic not even minding a 'red man' light. Then the green walking man lights up and we're all sitting in our cars staring at each other with not a pedestrian is sight!
(didn't really mean for this to turn into a rant!)

ian_m

The problem here is inconsistency. Some pedestrians simply don't know that the button needs to be pressed because not all traffic lights require it. Therefore leading to confused pedestrians and frustrated drivers waiting at junctions when nobody is crossing.

gurramok

Some junctions I have travelled on are setup as per OP(needs pressing of button to get green man) during the night and during the day they get an automatically green man despite no-one pressing the green button.

The latter case of imaginary pedestrians is a big cause of traffic snarlups.

steve-o

HonalD wrote: »

I suppose the easy answer to the question is that the timings for pedestrians include "green man" time (a) plus "amber man time" (b) or "black out time" plus a safety "all red" time (c). If pedestrian crossings show the green man automatically (without anyone pressing the button) then the signal cycle time (total time to change) has to include (a+b+c). Otherwise, the signal cycle time only has to cater for the length of the red light on the approach.

At many junctions, pedestrians are incidental to the traffic light cycle and showing the green man has no impact whatsoever on the cycle. Most junctions on the quays work this way.

It would be a simple change and I haven't seen any good reason not to do it. If the button needs to stay in place so people don't get confused then fair enough. Let them press it if they want to. Keeping the button would also allow for a night-time mode where the lights are not on a continuous cycle.

seamus

Simon201 wrote: »

tbh I just don't know why the US way wouldn't work here or anywhere else in the world. It seems to work for millions of Americans where you can move through a junction on the green light if you're going straight. But, you give way to pedestrians if you're turning left or right. Just watch a junction in New York to see this in action. It generally works quite well I think because pedestrians waiting to cross will go in a big bunch and then a few cars will go through. Maybe another pedestrian etc after that.

It works for the grid system. Go to any US town or city not employing a grid system and you'll see lights exactly like ours all over the place. If you think about the quays in Dublin, it's a long walk from one "block" to the next, so people won't walk to the next set of lights, they'll just cross where they feel like it. In the US, a block is a relatively small size, so you always know there will be a set of ped. lights a couple of hundred metres up the road.

The issue is not so much at major junctions (though they are often lacking pedestrian crossing when they're badly needed), it's more at chokepoints like the Halfpenny bridge and the Dawson/Nassau St junction where traffic could free-flow all the time if there were no pedestrian lights.

If the pedestrianisation of college green goes ahead, a lot of the bad pedestrian crossings in Dublin city will be eliminated. However, the quays are a much tougher prospect. You can't tunnel for either cars or pedestrians because of the flood risk and there's simply not enough room to build good pedestrian flyovers.

monument

Pedestrians and wheelchair users etc are generally under catered for in Dublin:

• Tiny footpaths in many areas of very high footfall.
• Small crossing in places -- Even the recently upgraded ped crossing around College Green are small in width for the amount of pedestrians in the area.
• Little priority at many crossing, people will often get a chance to cross before the green man
• Complex road junctions where it would be quicker to drive across the road than walk
• Green man cycle too fast in places for older people
• Given that many people can only cross at ped crossing now, there's a huge lack of ped crossing on stretches of some roads
• Crossing places, ie dished / dropped kerbing, out of line with walking along a road
• No dished / dropped kerbing in many places
• Barriers which were put in for apparent safety slowing pedestrians down
• Barriers where there should be footpaths along the city section of the Luas Red line (everybody walks on both sides anyway), with footpaths not linking up etc

And because of the expectation of pedestrians are treated like targets by most drivers and cyclists if they use their right to cross the road away from ped crossings. Pedestrians also have the right of way at unsignaled junctions, but this never respected.

There's a huge expectation from drivers for pedestrians not to get in the way of cars. Outside Cineworld on Parnell Street is a classic case. Large amount of pedestrians but no respect for them. I was once told by a driver that I was crossing on a red man (there is no pedestrian light).

cast_iron

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

perception. Its all about keeping it standard, you always press the button and it always changes only if you do. People (society) are too stupid to have it mixed and matched

What a load of nonsense. How can you say that with authority? The system is mixed and matched - that's the OP's point. I entirely agree, the current setup that the OP describes is quite dangerous.

HonalD

steve-o wrote: »

At many junctions, pedestrians are incidental to the traffic light cycle and showing the green man has no impact whatsoever on the cycle. Most junctions on the quays work this way.

It would be a simple change and I haven't seen any good reason not to do it. If the button needs to stay in place so people don't get confused then fair enough. Let them press it if they want to. Keeping the button would also allow for a night-time mode where the lights are not on a continuous cycle.

I should have said that Dublin City Centre was not the subject of my post - I was explaining that locations where pedestrians are not expected for each cycle then inefficiencies would arise (for no benefit).

For the City Centre areas, pedestrian priority should be top of the list (as set out by Monument's post). What is sought is a utopian vehicular free environment - even motorists among us (including me) will admit that a car-free zone is the best area to walk in (e.g. Grafton Street, Mary Street as opposed to crossing the Quays, College Green etc.)

Equal priority for pedestrians and motorists is impossible (O'Connell Bridge is an example).....

The other thing to say about my post was that it was not condoning poor pedestrian priority at signals!

HonalD

cast_iron wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. How can you say that with authority? The system is mixed and matched - that's the OP's point. I entirely agree, the current setup that the OP describes is quite dangerous.

Consistency is everything - either consistently right or consistently wrong - whatever why is which is anyone's guess......or opinion!

giantturkeyleg

Is it really the case that you have to press the button to get a green man? My own impression from walking extensively around Dublin city centre is that ALL lights are on timers, and it doesn't make a difference whether the button is pressed or not, they will give go through the pedestrian cycle anyway. This seems to be the opposite of what the OP has said. I thought the button was just to pacify people and to give a physical indication to the deaf and blind (the button vibrates when the pedestrian light goes green). Maybe someone else ALWAYS presses the button (since I never bother) while standing at the junction at the same time as me.

As someone else said though, after a while you learn the light sequence, so at this stage I usually read the lights and walk when it is safe to do so (when then traffic has just got a red light, or when there is not traffic), rather than when the green man lights.

The way it is now is not ideal (there is no point in the lights changing if no-one wants to cross, and when the pedestrian crossing is needed it often takes too long to change to green, and then stays green for too short a time) but it would be good to know how the lights currently work i.e. are they are all on timers, or does the button have to be pressed to activate them? Then you could decide what's the best way of changing them. Maybe someone could say for sure how they work?

John Player

the lights on aungier st at the carmelitte church are deadly, u push them and the green man shows up in about 5 seconds, without fail

mambo

giantturkeyleg wrote: »

Is it really the case that you have to press the button to get a green man? My own impression from walking extensively around Dublin city centre is that ALL lights are on timers, and it doesn't make a difference whether the button is pressed or not, they will give go through the pedestrian cycle anyway.

The one junction I see every day and where I know you HAVE to press the button, otherwise the red man never turns to green even when it's safe to cross, is at the Mont Clare hotel, where pedestrians are walking in the direction of Nassau St., with the Davenport Hotel on their right.

I'm so tempted to shout from my bike to pedestrians "It's okay to cross, even though the ickle man is red!"

And I have seen other instances over the years...

steve-o

giantturkeyleg wrote: »

Is it really the case that you have to press the button to get a green man?

I don't know of any lights where the green man comes on automatically. Perhaps some of the lights around O'Connell St work that way... but who's to know since there's always someone there to press the button But elsewhere throughout the city, someone has to press the button even though the traffic is stopping anyway (just like the OP's example).

HonalD

John Player wrote: »

the lights on aungier st at the carmelitte church are deadly, u push them and the green man shows up in about 5 seconds, without fail

Deadly good or pleain deadly :rolleyes:

Casey_81

John Player wrote: »

the lights on aungier st at the carmelitte church are deadly, u push them and the green man shows up in about 5 seconds, without fail

Depending upon traffic volumes that could be very dangerous..

seamus

Depending upon traffic volumes that could be very dangerous..

Actually, that junction is quite dangerous, but for a different reason.
Northbound on Aungier St, there's a road on the left just before this set of lights. When the ped. lights go red, a yellow box requires traffic to stop before the road on the left. Traffic coming out of this side road knows this and often comes flying out of this road when they see that the ped. lights have been activated.
The problem is that cyclists are allowed to proceed through the yellow box and stop before the pedestrian lights - there's one of those big red boxes for cyclists to stop in. I have more than once had stop for an idiot who just came straight out of this side road without stopping.

jack presley

Billy Connolly did a great sketch a few years back about the traffic island at College Green and how he felt he was there for years before the green man came on.

veryangryman

As someone who loses patience alot more with being stuck at a red with nobody crossing than waiting for pedestrian ights to change for me to walk across, I think the "push button only changing" strategy is best

You usually find some gob who presses the button and crosses. Then the traffic has to stop at a red with nobody coming. Its like "Why press the button if you werent even going to wait"

And thats what grinds my gears

KC61

Many of the lights in the city centre such as those at junctions on O'Connell Street, D'Olier Street, College Street, Westmoreland Street, College Green, Nassau Street and College Street are on automatic cycles and the pedestrian buttons are frankly comfort toys. Pressing them has no effect whatsoever as the cycles remain the same.

elekid

I know exactly what the OP means and it's always bothered me. I see two examples of this every day while walking in Dublin, where it is always safe to cross at certain times due to the current flow of traffic, but the pedestrian light will only go green if someone has pressed the button. I've often come across people waiting at a red man when it's actually perfectly safe for them to cross.

Here they are for anyone who doesn't believe they exist (The red lines represent traffic, the blue lines represent the pedestrian crossing):

1. There is no left turn off Granby Row, but this pedestrian light only goes green if the button is pressed. (Though I regularly see drivers turn left through here anyway, even when the man is green)

example1.JPG

2. Nothing else can move when traffic is turning right onto Phibsboro road from Western Way, but again the pedestrian light only goes green if the button is pressed.

example2.JPG

In general I find waiting times very long for pedestrian lights in Dublin, especially given the short amount of time you're given to cross and the huge volumes of people using certain crossings (outside Connolly Station is a prime example).