Being tracked leaving the country!

princess-lala

Theres an app for that.....

Just reading an article online - in Saudi Arabia women are being tracked leaving the country. These women need permission from their guardian to leave the country!

Now I know in Saudi the majority religion would be Muslim and these women have to obey their husbands as part of their religion but this now is going too far.

So what do you think? Would you be happy knowing you husband/partner was keeping tabs on you?

Link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/04/keeping-tags-text-women-saudi

metrovelvet

No. I would not be happy. Seriously pissed off.

I would very much like to know how this technology works and where it comes from.

El_Drago

princess-lala wrote: »

Theres an app for that.....

Just reading an article online - in Saudi Arabia women are being tracked leaving the country. These women need permission from their guardian to leave the country!

Now I know in Saudi the majority religion would be Muslim and these women have to obey their husbands as part of their religion but this now is going too far.

So what do you think? Would you be happy knowing you husband/partner was keeping tabs on you?

Link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/04/keeping-tags-text-women-saudi

This is purely a Saudi thing,nothing to do with Islam.Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

Stheno

Until recently women in Saudi and similiar states had to give their passports to their husbands and could not travel.

There have been several documentaries/docudramas about it, such as not without my daughter etc

Stheno

El_Drago wrote: »

This is purely a Saudi thing,nothing to do with Islam.Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

It is a strict applicaton of Islam and it's laws, as interpreted by the Imam's who rule such sects.

Nothing to do with the original Koran which iirc does not even mention veils, but has been interpreted to do so.

Pembily

princess-lala wrote: »

Theres an app for that.....

Just reading an article online - in Saudi Arabia women are being tracked leaving the country. These women need permission from their guardian to leave the country!

Now I know in Saudi the majority religion would be Muslim and these women have to obey their husbands as part of their religion but this now is going too far.

So what do you think? Would you be happy knowing you husband/partner was keeping tabs on you?

Link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/04/keeping-tags-text-women-saudi

I wouldn't like it, I am a very independent person but I know that there are men out there who would use this, Irish men too!!! Irish women too I would imagine but why be in a relationship if you can't trust the person!!!!

It is part of their tradition but technology is just bad!!!

El_Drago

Stheno wrote: »

It is a strict applicaton of Islam and it's laws, as interpreted by the Imam's who rule such sects.

Nothing to do with the original Koran which iirc does not even mention veils, but has been interpreted to do so.

aka Wahabi teachings,which couldn't be further from the real Islam than they are in so-called "Islamic states"

princess-lala

El_Drago wrote: »

This is purely a Saudi thing,nothing to do with Islam.Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

I never said it was the religion that had anything to do with this tracker device!

Stheno

But it's all to easy to interpret it as so Lala

To turn it on it's head and bring in personal responsibility, do the women in this scenario have full knowledge of it and are there actions taken regardless of that knowledge?

El_Drago

princess-lala wrote: »

I never said it was the religion that had anything to do with this tracker device!

Apologies if I interpreted you incorrectly, but I was referring to was the "have to obey their husbands as part of their religion" bit

metrovelvet

It's not just Saudi's who do this. Thanks to the Guardian, every stalker out there will have a new weapon.

Any tech people who can explain this?

princess-lala

Stheno wrote: »

But it's all to easy to interpret it as so Lala

To turn it on it's head and bring in personal responsibility, do the women in this scenario have full knowledge of it and are there actions taken regardless of that knowledge?

El_Drago wrote: »

Apologies if I interpreted you incorrectly, but I was referring to was the "have to obey their husbands as part of their religion" bit

By obeying their husbands - in most cases these women's husbands know they are leaving the country! Unless in certain circumstances they are running away the husband obviously wont know!

What I was asking was would you want your partner/husband tracking you?

Ectoplasm

When I see articles like this one, it honestly makes me grateful that I was born in Ireland. The idea that I could be tracked like a piece of mail or a package horrifies me.

Then I stop and wonder, if I hadn't been born in Ireland, would I expect anything else? Would I be so inured to things like this that it wouldn't surprise me? Would I be quite so horrified? I'd hope so, but cannot be sure. This notion of a woman as property to be controlled by the men in her life is just too alien to me to really grasp.

Pembily

princess-lala wrote: »

What I was asking was would you want your partner/husband tracking you?

Nope and at the same time I wouldn't track my husband or boyfriend!!

entropi

The tracking thing would be a modern way I guess of what used to happen, as in a male relative would accompany the wife if the husband was unable to. I'm not one to denounce religions because I'm athiest and dont actually care about them, but as far as womens rights go...this should be frowned upon.

All women who have not been imprisoned for a crime, should be free to go about their day as they wish, leave the county/country if it takes their fancy, and not have to answer to their husband because of a law that should not exist.

Novella

If I was married, I'm sure I'd tell my husband if I was leaving the country... So... he'd already know? What do you mean by tracking exactly?

princess-lala

Novella wrote: »

If I was married, I'm sure I'd tell my husband if I was leaving the country... So... he'd already know? What do you mean by tracking exactly?

From what I read - its like a tracking device, nothing on the person but more like an app - thats what the article said!

metrovelvet

Is that something that goes into the phone?

Novella

Novella wrote: »

If I was married, I'm sure I'd tell my husband if I was leaving the country... So... he'd already know? What do you mean by tracking exactly?

I think it's one thing to be married in a loving relationship and another to be married off to your dad's mate when you're 10!

This app sounds like a horrible thing. I didn't think they let you leave the country unless you were actually accompanied by a male relative though. Didn't that women's rights campaigner get refused at a saudi border since she didn't have someone with her

Ian Beale

metrovelvet wrote: »

It's not just Saudi's who do this. Thanks to the Guardian, every stalker out there will have a new weapon.

Any tech people who can explain this?

No they won't, it doesn't even report where the person has gone to, just that they left the country. It sounds like when you show your passport at immigration it sends an alert out that the person is travelling alone but at that point the person would be long gone. I'd take that article with a pinch of salt, for that to work the airport/government would have had to set it up on the airport system.
Not to mention all the other apps out there that say they can locate any person through their phone number - not a chance, only the phone operator can do that.

southsiderosie

I don't actually see the text message thing as that big of a deal, since the article noted that you couldn't even clear immigration if you didn't already have the paperwork from male guardians giving permission to travel. It's just confirmation of a transaction that has already taken place. I think it's stupid, but I think most of the regulations regarding women in Saudi Arabia are stupid; the bigger issue here is 1) why an adult woman needs permission to leave in the first place, and 2) the fact that mobile technology is the only way for there to be any real, open exchanges of ideas in Saudi Arabia (and many other countries).

Wibbs

Ian Beale wrote: »

Not to mention all the other apps out there that say they can locate any person through their phone number - not a chance, only the phone operator can do that.

No, I'm afraid thats incorrect if it's a smartphone with built in GPS. You can locate and track the phone and not just the phone companies can do it either. If you have an iphone and you sign up to apples mobile me service and your phone is stolen you can track it through the built in GPS module in real time. Android phones also have the same system in place and there are defo third party apps that an do it on both platforms. Here are a couple for the iphone alone. http://techpp.com/2009/09/18/6-ways-to-find-track-lost-stolen-iphone-free/ http://techpp.com/2010/01/20/track-recover-lost-stolen-android-mobile-phone-via-wavesecure/

metrovelvet

Whats an android phone and a third party app?

Ian Beale

Wibbs wrote: »

No, I'm afraid thats incorrect if it's a smartphone with built in GPS. You can locate and track the phone and not just the phone companies can do it either. If you have an iphone and you sign up to apples mobile me service and your phone is stolen you can track it through the built in GPS module in real time. Android phones also have the same system in place and there are defo third party apps that an do it on both platforms. Here are a couple for the iphone alone. http://techpp.com/2009/09/18/6-ways-to-find-track-lost-stolen-iphone-free/ http://techpp.com/2010/01/20/track-recover-lost-stolen-android-mobile-phone-via-wavesecure/

I wasn't referring to the apps that are used to locate your phone if it's stolen. Also the person being "tracked" would have to install it on their phones, there is no app that you can type a randomers mobile number in to and it will show their location. Which is why I said only phone companies can do that.

Wibbs

metrovelvet wrote: »

Whats an android phone and a third party app?

Android is a smartphone operating system that you can install applications like games and various utilities on. The iPhone would be the apple version of that.

Ian Beale wrote: »

I wasn't referring to the apps that are used to locate your phone if it's stolen. Also the person being "tracked" would have to install it on their phones, there is no app that you can type a randomers mobile number in to and it will show their location. Which is why I said only phone companies can do that.

Yes but if these muppets are tracking their wives on their phones chances are they're buying the phone or have access to it. So installing said app would not be too hard. In the case of mobile me it would be easy enough to switch it on. They could then track the phone no problem. Plus if this is something that is vaguely sanctioned by that state(which wouldnt shock me) then I'm sure guys in the phone companies would be only to happy to help track another guys wife even without the GPS. I still reckon its GPS based though as the phone/mast signal triangulation isnt very accurate and varies in that accuracy a lot. On my own phone the mast signal tells me Im about a mile away from where I am, the gps had me about 20 feet away.

metrovelvet

So can you do this without having access to the handset? Can the phone company do this with any phone number?

Galvasean

Hardly surprising. Saudi Arabia's human rights record is atrocious. Their attitude toward women, homosexuals and anyone else who happens to be a bit different is truly barbaric.

Wibbs

Yea but like Ian Beale said only the phone company can do it that way.

The Corinthian

metrovelvet wrote: »

So can you do this without having access to the handset? Can the phone company do this with any phone number?

Short Answer: Yes and only with phones either subscribed to their network or otherwise using their network.

Long Techie Answer: Whenever your phone is on, it automatically seeks out a cell to connect to - once you do this, your connection is authenticated (for billing/routing purposes) and noted. All cells have an ID, and every network keeps a geographical 'map' of these cells and as such an estimate of your location can be recorded. In recent years, a combination of legislation and open source initiatives have made these maps publicly available.

Originally this would connect you to the nearest cell, and thus pinpoint you within a 200 m in cities and 1 km in the countryside. As cell technology progressed and network subscriptions grew, cell networks began to adopt 'cell swapping' techniques, so as to unload demand on busy cells (especially in commercial city areas), which meant you might not be connected to your nearest cell, but one further away, and thus diminish the pinpointing accuracy.

The earliest Location Based Services (LBS) used this technique before the advent of GPS phones and it is still in use for LBS that cater to non-GPS enabled phones or for where the user cannot connect to a GPS satellite. I wrote one of these LBS apps ten years ago, for one of the networks, and while I can say it could locate you, it was not terribly accurate - I could tell you if you were in the south-west of the city centre, for example, but not what street, let alone building you were in.

GPS, if you're connected, will pinpoint you within ten of fifteen meters. However, the operator should (I say 'should' because I'm only 99% certain) not have your GPS information. The US government will, on the other hand.

However, returning to the topic, it is with cellular network that this technology works. If you're on their network, they know what cell you're connected to. If you're out of the country but subscribed to the network, they will know that you are roaming - and in which country - the moment you connect. How else do you think they can bill you?

So what I'd imagine the Saudis have is a process referencing the subscriber database, where whenever a female subscriber switches to foreign roaming, it will raise an alert. Indeed, they probably could raise other flags for when that subscriber is in another part of the country or even a different part of the city.

If you are not subscribed to a Saudi network but roaming on it, then the network will naturally know what cell you're connected to. However, they won't know who you are. So now if you're ever asked to give your MSISDN (mobile number) at Saudi immigration, you know why.

As an addendum, this use of the technology is not limited to places like Saudi Arabia. The Gardai sometimes request cell records to verify or uncover the whereabouts of suspects and there have been cases, abroad at least, where individuals are put under surveillance using this technology.

metrovelvet

ok. But the phone company and the cops can do this, the ordinary civilian cant, except in Saudi.

The Corinthian

metrovelvet wrote: »

ok. But the phone company and the cops can do this, the ordinary civilian cant, except in Saudi.

An ordinary 'civilian' cannot. Unless they work for the phone company or the cops. Or they are good friends with someone who works for the phone company or the cops. Or they have the knowledge and inclination to trojan your phone, which is very, very easy to do with smartphones.

Paranoid yet?

Herbal Deity

metrovelvet wrote: »

ok. But the phone company and the cops can do this, the ordinary civilian cant, except in Saudi.

No.

You've been able to track people for years using their phone number.

Here's an article from 2006:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/feb/01/news.g2

I'm not sure how it was done in that article. There wouldn't have been GPS in many phones back then. Presumably the company he used had some way to access the operator's HLR or something.

But with GPS in phones these days, it's a lot more trivial. In fact, both my parents routinely track each other for the lulz (my mother was in London the other weekend and he was watching her go around the city, he even was able to see her in the middle of the Irish Sea while flying home).

metrovelvet

What's a smartphone?

Herbal Deity

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=smartphone

metrovelvet

Is this legal?

The Corinthian

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I'm not sure how it was done in that article. There wouldn't have been GPS in many phones back then. Presumably the company he used had some way to access the operator's HLR or something.

Pretty much - the giveaway was "within 150 yards". The Web site in question was either owned by an operator or had a special deal with them for the data.

But with GPS in phones these days, it's a lot more trivial. In fact, both my parents routinely track each other for the lulz

You need to have GPS enabled for this to work. I'm sure it's possible to get the data from the GPS network if you have access to it and an ID for the phone's GPS client, not sure how that would work as GPS is primarily a military network and civilian access is restricted.

(my mother was in London the other weekend and he was watching her go around the city, he even was able to see her in the middle of the Irish Sea while flying home).

Naughty. She should have switched off (or put in flight mode) her mobile while flying :cool:

Herbal Deity

metrovelvet wrote: »

Is this legal?

Well I'm no lawyer, but if the person owning the phone authorizes another person to track them via a PC or a smartphone, I can't see why it would be illegal.

I'm sure tracking someone against their will could be deemed illegal, but I'm not sure how one could prove that they did not permit another person to track them. It's not like a legal contract is signed, someone simply needs access to the phone they want to track for 5 minutes.

And of course, if someone could send the person they want to track a trojan, then they could track people without even needing access to the phone at all. I'm sure that this would be clearly illegal though.

The Corinthian

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Well I'm no lawyer, but if the person owning the phone authorizes another person to track them via a PC or a smartphone, I can't see why it would be illegal.

He used her phone and effectively pretended to be her when authorizing the tracking, so it would probably be covered under identity theft legislation.

Not sure how much of that legislation was in place back in 2006 though.

Herbal Deity

The Corinthian wrote: »

You need to have GPS enabled for this to work. I'm sure it's possible to get the data from the GPS network if you have access to it and an ID for the phone's GPS client, not sure how that would work as GPS is primarily a military network and civilian access is restricted.

I dunno, a quick Google found me this:
http://www.gpsfortoday.com/free-gps-tracking-applications-and-software/

And wiki says:

The U.S. Government controls the export of some civilian receivers. All GPS receivers capable of functioning above 18 kilometers (11 mi) altitude and 515 metres per second (1,001 kn) [3] are classified as munitions (weapons) for which U.S. State Department export licenses are required. These limits attempt to prevent use of a receiver in a ballistic missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Restrictions_on_civilian_use

Which wouldn't stop civilians tracking gps devices unless they were on board military aircraft or otherwise travelling very fast or flying very high.

The Big Red Button

I'm confused with all the talk about tracking via the woman's phone and GPS etc!

The article linked to in the OP involved the husband receiving a text from the foreign ministry when his wife is at the airport (at which point, she would have been stopped anyways unless she had all of the right paperwork from her "guardian" allowing her to leave the country.

I'm very much against the idea of the women requiring such permission, but I didn't see anything in the article about an actual tracker device in the wife's phone? And anyways, surely if this was the case, all she'd have to do is leave her phone behind?

Shouldn't the discussion be whether or not it's right that women require permission to leave the country in the first place? Rather than getting sidetracked discussing the technology that may or may not be involved when it's not really all that relevant!

The Corinthian

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I dunno, a quick Google found me this:
http://www.gpsfortoday.com/free-gps-tracking-applications-and-software/

Interesting - as I said, I'm not sure. I know it's technically possible, but am not familiar enough with the legal and administrative restrictions in place to comment.

chatterpillar wrote: »

Shouldn't the discussion be whether or not it's right that women require permission to leave the country in the first place? Rather than getting sidetracked discussing the technology that may or may not be involved when it's not really all that relevant!

Short discussion if that is the case, as I cannot see many suggesting that this is acceptable.

The only possible instance where I could see a reason for it might be in child custody cases, but even then it's not really about tracking the location of a woman, but the child(ren), would not be targeting women, per say (but anyone with temporary or permanent custody - so it could apply to 'weekend dads/mums') and even then would be seen an unacceptable overkill by most.

Saudi Arabia is a country with medieval attitudes towards women, regardless of the technology employed, and I doubt you'll find many people who will argue the case for such tracking in the West, where our attitudes are completely different.

The Big Red Button

The Corinthian wrote: »

Short discussion if that is the case, as I cannot see many suggesting that this is acceptable.

Oh I know.

I guess it's just that I don't see the point in everyone arguing so vehemently about the details and pros and cons of phone tracking devices - when that's not what the linked article in the OP is about at all! I mean, why argue against an "evil" that doesn't even exist?!

The Corinthian

chatterpillar wrote: »

I guess it's just that I don't see the point in everyone arguing so vehemently about the details and pros and cons of phone tracking devices - when that's not what the linked article in the OP is about at all! I mean, why argue against an "evil" that doesn't even exist?!

OK, but I thought how it can be done was relevant to the discussion, which is why I entered it.

What do you suggest we talk about then?

The Big Red Button

The Corinthian wrote: »

OK, but I thought how it can be done was relevant to the discussion, which is why I entered it.

What do you suggest we talk about then?

Well, I would imagine that the fact that the women require their husband's permission to leave the country and whether there is any hope of this changing in the near future would be an interesting topic, however it is one that I know little about!

metrovelvet

chatterpillar wrote: »

Oh I know.

I guess it's just that I don't see the point in everyone arguing so vehemently about the details and pros and cons of phone tracking devices - when that's not what the linked article in the OP is about at all! I mean, why argue against an "evil" that doesn't even exist?!

Because the devil is in the detail.

The Corinthian

chatterpillar wrote: »

Well, I would imagine that the fact that the women require their husband's permission to leave the country and whether there is any hope of this changing in the near future would be an interesting topic, however it is one that I know little about!

Well that is something that only occurs in a small number of typically hard line Islamic countries, principally Saudi Arabia.

Is there is any hope of this changing in the near future? Doubtful, if anything the last decade has seen a move towards more radical Islam in the region.

Is there a chance of it affecting us in the West? No.

The Corinthian

metrovelvet wrote: »

Because the devil is in the detail.

This is true in that the press will often misrepresent something and blow it out of proportion for the sake of a story, so examining what really is happening, how and why is important.

Of course, in this case there's not really a lot of need to do that, given the country in question is Saudi Arabia.

Personally I do think the technology will end up being widely employed in the West, but it will probably be done so on the basis of national security rather than gender.

The Big Red Button

metrovelvet wrote: »

Because the devil is in the detail.

But what's the point of discussing the details of mobile phone tracking devices when that's not what the article is about at all, and when to the best of my knowledge (open to correction here) mobile phone tracking devices are not used to track women leaving the country in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else for that matter?

metrovelvet

chatterpillar wrote: »

But what's the point of discussing the details of mobile phone tracking devices when that's not what the article is about at all, and when to the best of my knowledge (open to correction here) mobile phone tracking devices are not used to track women leaving the country in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else for that matter?

Because people find it interesting? That's usually why people talk about things.

Nevyn

Given that women in Saudi can't usually sign legally binding contracts the phones would be on thier husbands accounts and he would be the one getting the tracking turned on for the phone.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

Given that women in Saudi can't usually sign legally binding contracts the phones would be on thier husbands accounts and he would be the one getting the tracking turned on for the phone.

Why don't they just dump the phone.