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What would happen if people turned their backs on consumerism?

  • 04-08-2010 02:01AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭


    What would be the repercussions if people stopped wastage and started bartering?


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    Most likely it would not happen. If you have say computer skills but want eggs, you have to find someone in need of those computer skills but has eggs to trade. Can't see it working in the modern complex society and if it did it would still be consumerism just of a different form.

    Another idea is that of a local currency. Not barter as such but a currency created by local people and only valid in the local area. A few such schemes have been started in Ireland but they don't seem to survive very long.

    What do you think would happen? It is always nice if the person starting a thread puts forward an opinion of their own.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 425 ✭✭daithicarr


    By consumerism i would take it to mean the desire to purchase or services in amounts far beyond peoples needs , not capitalism or a market economy where people exchange goods and services for a price.
    was it one of these or both you were refering too?

    bartering would probably lead to waste as well, i might not want all the apples you have produced at that moment and you have to go find other things you want to off load your apples before they go bad, there by getting goods you dont imediatly need.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Cannibal Ox


    SkepticOne wrote:
    If you have say computer skills but want eggs, you have to find someone in need of those computer skills but has eggs to trade.
    This isn't really the problem with consumerism. Companies produce too many goods that we don't necessarily need and they produce too many goods that don't have a long shelf life. If the company that is producing those goods wants to make money it needs to convince people to buy those goods. It isn't so much that the consumer needs to turn their back, or find alternative ways of producing goods*, it's that the economy needs consumers to function, and if consumerism wants to become more 'ethical', the means by which we produce goods and the quality of goods needs to change.


    *I mean, if the computer programmer had any sense, he/she would just buy some chickens ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    *I mean, if the computer programmer had any sense, he/she would just buy some chickens ;)

    What would he use to pay for the chickens ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭hiorta


    If consumers made a serious effort to minimise - absolutely minimise spending - no tobacco, alcohol, gambling or other frivolous waste, reducing demand and prices and curtailing government waste, fat cats, etc., in one stroke, Ireland would be a fitter place for thye children and grandchildren.

    I doubt whether there is an appetite for any real change, but only that where it is expected that others must take the pain for the present mess.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Cannibal Ox


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    What would he use to pay for the chickens ?
    With the money he makes from working as a computer programmer? :P

    Don't get me wrong, I like using money to buy shiny things as much as the next person and I don't think there is a moral imperative for everyone to go out and buy chickens but if some of what you're consuming is your own produce your lifestyle is going to be a little more sustainable then if you are relying entirely on others produce (particularly if that produce is coming from, I dunno, a chicken farm in Argentina).

    That isn't really what I was trying to say though. I don't really think individuals, or small societies with relatively little cultural and economic impact like Ireland, have all that much control over how consumerism operates. Consumerism is both an economic and cultural phenomena, and an improvement, as it were, would require changes in how we produce and also in how we consume. Which'd be pretty huge. Particularly when we have new consumer societies like China and India, with very large populations, just getting into consumerism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    hiorta wrote: »
    If consumers made a serious effort to minimise - absolutely minimise spending - no tobacco, alcohol, gambling or other frivolous waste, reducing demand and prices and curtailing government waste, fat cats, etc., in one stroke, Ireland would be a fitter place for thye children and grandchildren.

    I doubt whether there is an appetite for any real change, but only that where it is expected that others must take the pain for the present mess.
    The consequences though is that jobs in these frivolous areas would disappear. Things would reorientate towards the primary production of food. Modern farm machinery would no longer be manufactured or would be unaffordable so the predominant form of labour would be manual farm work. Even if people wanted to spend money of frivolous things, then, they would not be able to afford to.

    What you are looking at really is the situation that exists in much of the developing world with large numbers of people working in fields. The reason I think anti-consumerism is infeasible is that in these countries and areas where manual farm labour is the norm, people expend huge amounts of energy and take large risks trying to escape it. Wether or not it is the healthiest, people seem to crave the complex consumerist society we enjoy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    This post has been deleted.
    I wonder if consumerism has reached a sort of plateau there? A new product comes out and people just go "meh".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Spending is false ecomomics. Bertie ahern style economics. An economy should never be built around it. Take TV's. Most people probably traded in they're big old ones and bought LCD's. But how many feel the need to buy LED's? Similarly with housing, absolute madness to build an economy around housing.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 220 ✭✭skinner2x


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    I wonder if consumerism has reached a sort of plateau there? A new product comes out and people just go "meh".

    Yeah I've gone like that, haven't bought a gadget in over 2 yrs:eek: I find myself repairing alot of my stuff with cheap parts..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭Bob Z


    Ok so would I be right in saying that even though Goverments give the impression that they don't want people to stop waste and tax accordingly they don't really want people to stop buying/updating tv's, radios, computers , iPods etc because it would harm the economy?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,789 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    The whole world economy is built on growth.
    Growth provides future profit which in turn enables current investment.
    Stop the growth, nobody invests, everything stagnates


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    There will never be an end to consumerism - if people just purchased what they *needed*, people would eat only bread, drink only water, dress in rags, and shelter in shacks built from throw away rubbish.

    People want stuff they dont *need*. Theres nothing particularly wrong with that, so long as they are prepared to work for it and pay the true cost of it. Civillisation is built on things we dont *need*. Civillisation is a place where wants become the priority.

    Theres an underlying theme in the attacks on consumerism that are essentially the same <Back to working the land, subsistence existence, when men were men and women were grateful> alternative to the <corruption and decadence of wasteful, unprincipled> urbanised life. The idealistic struggle between the image of the honest, clean living farmer living within his means and from the sweat of his own brow contrasted with the slimy, corporate executive who lies and cheats his way around the big city, never truly happy or satisfied. Basic Disney movie plotting.

    Its a tale as old as time - the Romans eternally yearned for a return to the simple, idealistic, imagined lives of their stern, farmer forefather and continually dismissed their civillisation as decadent and corrupt. We do the same. Its nothing new. Various revolutionary groups all throughout time have attacked modern "decadence" and called for a return to an imagined, golden age, back to basics.

    Consumerism isnt a problem that needs to be solved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭hiorta


    ""People want stuff they dont *need*.

    Absolutely true.
    It is also true that the Ireland of yesterday perished because of it.

    The Ireland of tomorrow must change or perpetually live in a handout society, with depression, pill-popping just to get through the day.
    There is no magic wand, no fairy godmother or godfather. No bail-outs. Nothing!
    The buck has stopped and will remain stopped.

    The future is in you own collective hands. Think of the children, for God's sake - you MUST change.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭George Orwell 1982


    People have already turned their back on consumerism

    This lecture by Professor Elizabeth Warren shows people in the US are spending much less than 30 years ago on clothes, electronic goods, cars, food, etc. They are spending more on mortgages, health insurance and education and they are earning less in real terms.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    ""People want stuff they dont *need*.

    Absolutely true.
    It is also true that the Ireland of yesterday perished because of it.

    The Ireland of tomorrow must change or perpetually live in a handout society, with depression, pill-popping just to get through the day.
    There is no magic wand, no fairy godmother or godfather. No bail-outs. Nothing!
    The buck has stopped and will remain stopped.

    The future is in you own collective hands. Think of the children, for God's sake - you MUST change.

    Yeah, back to the fields with us, a good days work toiling on the land with a good feed at night - well earned and so on. We dont want to be carrying on with our souless corrupt godless materialism.

    Its a very old story.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    during the Great Depression, impoverished farmers in the united states would often use barter to pay for services, offering produce instead of money. I seem to recall this being mentioned in To Kill a Mocking Bird where it's stated that a doctor in the town charges a sack of potatoes for delivering a baby.

    the thing about barter is that it's a very inefficient means acquiring goods which is why money evolved. With Barter, if I want some bread but the baker wants something I dont' have in return, I have to find the object of his desire before I can have my bread. The benefits of money over this are profound and self evident.

    That being said, barter still does happen and as the Depression proved, people will naturally turn to it when they lack money. Remember, money only works when everyone has/wants it. If you're the only one with money then you will have alot of paper you can't eat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    I saw an ad recently in the paper, went something as follows....
    'I want to swap a warehouse for an apartment'

    I can't think of more extreme barterism than that!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭hiorta


    """Yeah, back to the fields with us, a good days work toiling on the land with a good feed at night - well earned and so on. We dont want to be carrying on with our souless corrupt godless materialism.

    Its a very old story. """.........Sand

    It is a very old story Sand, but it is not consumerism per se, that is the main problem. The difficulty which drains away economic vitality is interest payments, These arise through unnecessary expenditure, or premature expenditure, using money you dont yet have.
    Minimise debt, with a view to eliminating it - as far as possible - and get all the benefit from your income.

    This will take time and depends on just how heavy borrowings were. BUT it can be done.
    As has been said, Government needs your taxes to spend and what they get depends on how happy you are to spend. If they dont get their idea of 'enough', they will have to get their thinking caps on and perhaps go after the more affluent. That, however is their problem.

    The current situation leads to disaster and simply must be stopped. I suggest that by maximising your income by eliminating waste, you will have retaken control of a major function of your life, which in turn creates a positive outlook, which brings health, both mental and physical. This is a time for self help and cooperation with friends family and neighbours in as many ways as you can think of.
    It is down to yourselves neither government or fatcat will care if you eat or not. Mutual support will provide help.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Bob Z wrote: »
    What would be the repercussions if people stopped wastage ?

    Already happened and the response was that the government urged us to do our patriotic duty and spend spend spend.
    Bob Z wrote: »
    and started bartering?

    Well that's a completely different kettle of fish. Barter is highly impractical when you are dealing with a complicated market place (i.e. more than say 10 items. We have hundreds of thousands of items to trade).

    On a smaller scale, if people started bartering, the government would kick up a fuss because they would be denied the transaction taxes that are easily obtained by money transactions but much harder to collect from barters.

    Crucially, what we need to reject is the idea that buying a lot of imported goods made by other countries will somehow magically make our country better. The idea of a consumerist society, where people do nothing but consume and work in the retail or non-export-services sector is what caused a lot of our problems.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I love the presentation of a rejection of consumerism as going "back to the fields". What a nonsensical false choice.

    There are a lot of things wrong with consumerism, or rather the extremes of materialism, not just the fact that our planet simply cannot deal with the tiny privileged percentage of the population that do buy the most ridiculous things, never mind the vast majority that want to join them.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    This post has been deleted.

    You know, they talk about the horrors of the Japanese recession, deflation and lost generation, but on the other hand if you go to Japan it is still one of the wealthiest countries in the world, has a massive export sector and a very high standard of living.

    Saving is a good thing, especially when what you are saving on is not basic amenities such as food and electricity, but on luxuries and fripperies.

    Everyone should save some money. It creates a steady economy and allows for proper investment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    'Everyone should save some money. It creates a steady economy and allows for proper investment'

    Very wise words indeed. Not what the likes of dermot aherne wants to hear, but you're spot on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Farmers do this all the time.
    I don't mean bartering animals. With paper work it's a lot more complicated then you think it would be!

    But swopping tasks like the use of machienry for another piece of machienry.
    It doesn't make sense for every local to have a 15,000 euro silage mower so one local has it and part payment can be labour and machinery for some other task.
    Hundreds of other examples and it goes on in every area of Ireland.

    Farmers do tasks for each other and no money swops hands.

    I hope I haven't missed the point of the thread :o


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Rockery Woman


    ok - so if consumerism ended tomorrow and we all started bartering instead....

    Well some of us have more to work with, for example people living in towns couldnt possibly live off the land, so perhaps they would barter their skills, computer programming per se.

    now I need petrol for my car.... hummmm how am I gonna pay for that?? eggs, milk and some home made beer maybe?

    it all seems a bit beyond me really. It smacks of communism and that never worked because its human nature to be greedy and comsume more and more!

    its a nice idea but we, as a race, have lived through excessive consumerism and we will never turn our backs on it - that is my opinion!

    But if anyone has ideas for its implementation - please post it - its a fascinating subject!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    Well some of us have more to work with, for example people living in towns couldnt possibly live off the land, so perhaps they would barter their skills, computer programming per se.
    This is the problem. If you are a computer programmer you need to find someone that has what you want e.g. sausages AND who needs a bit of programming done. This is why money was invented. In a pure barter society, a highly specialist job like computer programmer would cease to exist. Only generally useful skills would remain e.g. farming.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Er..I think there are a few ideas of what consumerism is floating around this thread.

    In the OED, the economic sense of the word means " A doctrine advocating a continual increase in the consumption of goods as a basis for a sound economy."

    You can reject consumerism but still use money.

    I suppose the confusion is in the original post, which seems to conflate a rejection of consumerism with a rejection of money.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Sand wrote: »
    There will never be an end to consumerism - if people just purchased what they *needed*, people would eat only bread, drink only water, dress in rags, and shelter in shacks built from throw away rubbish.

    People want stuff they dont *need*. Theres nothing particularly wrong with that, so long as they are prepared to work for it and pay the true cost of it. Civillisation is built on things we dont *need*. Civillisation is a place where wants become the priority.

    Well said we theoretically dont need art for example, yet our world would be so much poorer and blander without great painters and musicians for example ...


    Anyways my own take on growth, most of the worlds population is extremely poor and has plenty of room to grow, and yes most of them want the livestyle we have, im not sure why some people have romantic views of a "simple" life in the old days, i recommend yee spend a day or two working at a farm minus modern equipment


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    As Taconnel has pointed out there is a huge difference between consumerism and bartering and are not really related at all

    For my own point of view, and I don't know if it is the recession that has caused this or is it that i am getting a little older and wiser, but I am certainly cutting down on what i would call completely unnecessary expenditure.

    In the 2000's I spent money as well as the next man or woman and enjoyed what some would say was a good quality of life. Regularly I would wander down Grafton Street and drop a few hundred euro on clothes that essentially I didn't need, for a while i owned over 20 pairs of expensive jeans. That for me is what consumerism is and it is a complete waste of my money. My new outlook on consumer spending is if i need something then i buy it, if i don't then stay clear. So I needed an iphone so i bought it, however I am don't need to have 20 pairs of jeans so now i only have 5.

    I would also disagree with Donegalfella (which i am surprised at as i usually would find myself with a similar viewpoint) assessment on Japan, as Johnnyskeleton says they still have a very high standard of living and are still one of the wealthiest nations on earth. Maybe they have copped onto the fact that you don't need to spend every last penny before you next paycheck arrives. Germany is another country with a strong saving mentality and it hasn't done their standard of living much harm either

    I also think that consumerism needs to be taken in the situation of the person that is doing the spending. If i earn 100k and spend 100k on things that i don't really need then thats a completly different thing to earning 50k and spending 100k on things i don't really need. IMO it's ok to be a consumerist (is that even a word??) if its your own money, if its on borrowed money then its nuts

    And that applies across the board to governments, companies and individuals IMO


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