Lebanese troops open fire on IDF engineers

BlaasForRafa

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/3-lebanese-soldiers-journalist-killed-in-clash-on-israel-lebanon-border-1.305734

Since the end of the Second Lebanon War, the IDF has conducted patrols up to the international border, which in some places is on the Lebanese side of the border fence. It is possible that Tuesday's incident was caused by one of the sides misidentifying the correct location of the border. In Lebanon, there was a report that Lebanese soldiers had demanded that Israeli troops leave the area before the exchange of fire took place.

Responding to the incident, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman authorized Israel's UN ambassador Gabriella Shalev to lodge an official complaint against Lebanon with the UN Security Council.

and
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-officer-killed-in-clash-on-israel-lebanon-border-1.305791

One Israeli officer was killed during clashes between Israel and the Lebanese army along the border on Tuesday. 45-year-old Lt. Col. Dov Harari, from Netanya, was a reserves battalion commander in the engineering corps.
Exchange of fire on the border between Israel and Lebanon - August 3, 2010
Exchange of fire on the border between Israel and Lebanon - August 3, 2010Yaron Kaminsky
1/16

Another Israeli officer sustained severe wounds and has been admitted to Rambam Medical Center in Haifa. He is in stable condition.

Lebanese and Israeli troops exchanged fire on the border Tuesday in the most serious clashes since a fierce war four years ago, and Lebanon said at least three of its soldiers and a journalist were killed in shelling.

From the reports so far it seems that as the IDF were removing some scrub/trees on the Israeli side of the border they came under fire from Lebanese troops who may have misidentified the true location of the border. The result was one senior IDF officer killed and another wounded and 3 Lebanese soldiers and a journalist killed in a retaliatory shelling and helicopter strike of a lebanese army post.

On a border that is a powderkeg one would have thought that the Lebanese would have consulted the United Nations border troops before shooting first. Lets hope it dosen't escalate any further.

arybvtcw0eolkf

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/3-lebanese-soldiers-journalist-killed-in-clash-on-israel-lebanon-border-1.305734



and
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-officer-killed-in-clash-on-israel-lebanon-border-1.305791



From the reports so far it seems that as the IDF were removing some scrub/trees on the Israeli side of the border they came under fire from Lebanese troops who may have misidentified the true location of the border. The result was one senior IDF officer killed and another wounded and 3 Lebanese soldiers and a journalist killed in a retaliatory shelling and helicopter strike of a lebanese army post.

On a border that is a powderkeg one would have thought that the Lebanese would have consulted the United Nations border troops before shooting first. Lets hope it dosen't escalate any further.

The Leb army are idiots, you'd have to work with them to understand!.

I wonder what part of the 'Blue Line' (Lebanese/Israeli border) this incident took place, any mention of it?.

BlaasForRafa

Rayan Wrong Pastrami wrote: »

The Leb army are idiots, you'd have to work with them to understand!.

I wonder what part of the 'Blue Line' (Lebanese/Israeli border) this incident took place, any mention of it?.

Its near Kiryat Shemona, theres a little spur of Israel that sticks up into Lebanon, thats where it happened.

FlutterinBantam

Hopefully these murderers will be brought to justice.

OhNoYouDidn't

You have to admire the propaganda. An 'exchange of fire' which saw an IDF soldier killed by the Lebanese after they crossed the border and then Lebanese soldiers and a civilian killed in an artillery barrage. Not exactly the OP's story

These pictures very clearly show the IDF were in Lebanon when the Lebanese fired warning shots. See picture 2

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10853998

Ben Hadad

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Hopefully these murderers will be brought to justice.

Yeah me to. I hope all murderers are brought to justice.

OhNoYouDidn't

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Hopefully these murderers will be brought to justice.

Who are they here? The Lebanese soldiers who tackled an illegal incursion initially with warning fire or the IDF who called in artillery that killed a civilian?

Shin Bet

http://idfspokesperson.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/11.jpg

why not understand what a buffer zone is before you try and twist things saying they were over the border.

Along that strech there is at parts 4 fences seperating Israel and Lebannon.
as for the post saying they fired warning shots...
Its not warning shots when they get people.

OhNoYouDidn't

Shin Bet wrote: »

http://idfspokesperson.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/11.jpg

why not understand what a buffer zone is before you try and twist things saying they were over the border.

Along that strech there is at parts 4 fences seperating Israel and Lebannon.
as for the post saying they fired warning shots...
Its not warning shots when they get people.

The Lebanese disagree, they say that was the border line. Regardless, the IDF have no business within the buffer zone one way or another - its a demilitarised space.

Your picture strangely has this buffer zone in Israel
Have to chuckle when the IDF claim that they are the victims of unprovoked brutality.

wes

Considering the IDF's reputation, concerning there ability to tell the truth, I see no reason to believe there version of events. Its seem most likely that it is the Lebanese who are telling the truth, but I can't say who is right or wrong definitively just yet, but considering the IDF's well known lies, i simply cannot trust a single thing they say.

OhNoYouDidn't

wes wrote: »

Considering the IDF's reputation, concerning there ability to tell the truth, I see no reason to believe there version of events. Its seem most likely that it is the Lebanese who are telling the truth, but I can't say who is right or wrong definitively just yet, but considering the IDF's well known lies, i simply cannot trust a single thing they say.

To me the second picture is very telling. Soldiers in full combat kit hanging over a barbed wire fence. Even if that line is not the border, rather a buffer zone, they clearly weren't going about their normal day.

Why do they need to clear firing lines into Lebanon anyway?

Shin Bet

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

To me the second picture is very telling. Soldiers in full combat kit hanging over a barbed wire fence. Even if that line is not the border, rather a buffer zone, they clearly weren't going about their normal day.

Why do they need to clear firing lines into Lebanon anyway?

They dont they have plenty of things that can fire over trees.

Its clearing trees that were hindering an observation point a common thing with militarys throught the world.
Even the UN says the Lebanese were wrong a simple search on google will show you that from sources you might rather believe.

OhNoYouDidn't

Shin Bet wrote: »

They dont they have plenty of things that can fire over trees.

Its clearing trees that were hindering an observation point a common thing with militarys throught the world.
Even the UN says the Lebanese were wrong a simple search on google will show you that from sources you might rather believe.

Do they? Source?

To sum up

IDF lean over a barbed wire fence to cut down a tree so they have a clear line of fire on a village. There is a dispute over whether that fence is a buffer zone or the legitimate border. Lebanese fire warning shots. IDF return fire and a gun battle ensues that the IDF lose and an officer is killed. The IDF then call in artillery and 3 Lebanese soldiers and a civilian die.

Any dispute on that?

Manic Moran

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

To me the second picture is very telling. Soldiers in full combat kit hanging over a barbed wire fence. Even if that line is not the border, rather a buffer zone, they clearly weren't going about their normal day.

Why do they need to clear firing lines into Lebanon anyway?

Probably so that they can see people coming up to the border.

Considering only five died, it wasn't the most disasterous tree-cutting operation in history. One must look at Panmunjom where a tree was blocking a UN outpost's field of vision, and they sent some people to go remove it. That one resulted in one of the largest military mobilisations outside of the Vietnam War until the 1980s.

This was attempt #2. With more firepower. (Operation Paul Bunyan)


As for why they're wearing combat kit, why provide a nice, unarmoured target? Play safe, wear your gear.

NTM

Shin Bet

16 posts to completly knock it off topic and country is that a record ??

OhNoYouDidn't

Shin Bet wrote: »

16 posts to completly knock it off topic and country is that a record ??

Have to agree with that. Pablo's contributions on this site are spectacularly irrelevant.

BlaasForRafa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

To me the second picture is very telling. Soldiers in full combat kit hanging over a barbed wire fence. Even if that line is not the border, rather a buffer zone, they clearly weren't going about their normal day.

Why do they need to clear firing lines into Lebanon anyway?

In case of a Hezbollah attack. Iran has been arming them in case you didn't realise.

digme

the truth is that the Israel soldier was cutting the tree and thier decision was to put cameras but thiere was a trees which were making trouble to the camera, trees was inside the Lebanese border, Lebanese solder have the right to defend their territory including the trees which are inside there border.

Scofflaw

pablo escobar wrote:

as Eddie Murphy would say "knock this **** off""

As the moderator would say, knock that **** off, pablo escobar. You've contributed nothing worthwhile to this thread.

moderately,
Scofflaw

BlaasForRafa

digme wrote: »

the truth is that the Israel soldier was cutting the tree and thier decision was to put cameras but thiere was a trees which were making trouble to the camera, trees was inside the Lebanese border, Lebanese solder have the right to defend their territory including the trees which are inside there border.

The UN forces on the ground have issue a report that the IDF did NOT go over the Lebanese border. .

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/unifil-official-idf-did-not-enter-lebanon-prior-to-border-clash-1.305929

Asserting the IDF's claim that it had informed the Lebanese side of the planned border works, Strugar said that UNIFIL had received a message from the IDF "regarding these works, and we had passed that on to the Lebanese army."

"We deal with complaints on provocations of Lebanese soldiers against IDF units on a daily basis," Strugar told Army Radio, adding incidents occur "almost every day, there's a lot of tension round the border, but what happened is the worst incident since 2006."

The incident began at about 8 A.M. Tuesday, when IDF Northern Command informed UNIFIL, the UN Interim Force in Lebanon, that it planned to clear vegetation along the border fence that was disrupting its soldiers' line of sight - an operation the IDF termed "routine maintenance," of the type it performs regularly.

A senior IDF officer said last night that intelligence information indicates the ambush was planned and carried out on the orders of a Lebanese company commander. The Lebanese Army's high command, he said,apparently did order the troops to create an incident to impress the various media outlets present, but told them only to fire in the air. The local commander then decided on his own initiative to escalate the incident by targeting the Israeli soldiers directly.

arybvtcw0eolkf

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

its a demilitarised space.

Seriously?.

Otacon

Why did the IDF try to remove the trees themselves? Whether the fence was the beginning of a buffer zone or the Lebanese border, why did Israel not ask the UN to do the removal?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Otacon wrote: »

Why did the IDF try to remove the trees themselves? Whether the fence was the beginning of a buffer zone or the Lebanese border, why did Israel not ask the UN to do the removal?

And why would the UN remove tree's for anyone?.

Otacon

Rayan Wrong Pastrami wrote: »

And why would the UN remove tree's for anyone?.

I haven't read anywhere that the Lebanese had issue with the trees being removed. It seems like it was purely the 'incursion' of the IDF.

To maintain the peace, I cannot understand why the UN would not want to accommodate the Israelis in this case.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Otacon wrote: »

To maintain the peace, I cannot understand why the UN would not want to accommodate the Israelis in this case.

This sort of stuff is just routine border/fence work for the IDF.

They give UNIFIL OP's in Naqoura notice of any work being carried out along the Blue Line. The work is monitored by UNIFIL and any incursions noted and representations are made to the relevant authorities, including the UNHQ in New York.

UNIFIL troops are not mandated to do this work for anyone.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The UN forces on the ground have issue a report that the IDF did NOT go over the Lebanese border. .

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/unifil-official-idf-did-not-enter-lebanon-prior-to-border-clash-1.305929

Well, you forgot to quote this part:

However, the UNIFIL official added that the information he had was "preliminary," adding that he will look into the evidence "more thoroughly" later in the day.
"The situation became tense right away, with the Lebanon army also being there," Strugar said, adding that UNIFIL forces had tried "to calm the situation and allow the IDF to work."

It looks like a preliminary statement has been made on the matter, which to be fair does favor Israel's side of the story, but I find the IDF intelligence to be highly suspect, considering that a more likely explanation is that Lebanese forces screwed up, and didn't plan a provocation.

arybvtcw0eolkf

wes wrote: »

a more likely explanation is that Lebanese forces screwed up, and didn't plan a provocation.

More then likely, we wouldn't have known them to be the brightest bunch!.

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

It looks like a preliminary statement has been made on the matter, which to be fair does favor Israel's side of the story, but I find the IDF intelligence to be highly suspect, considering that a more likely explanation is that Lebanese forces screwed up, and didn't plan a provocation.

Its possible that it may have been a screw up from an individual Leb platoon or it may have been that the local Leb commander wanted to put on a show of strength for the media from beirut and wasn't clear enough in orders to his subordinates.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Its possible that it may have been a screw up from an individual Leb platoon or it may have been that the local Leb commander wanted to put on a show of strength for the media from beirut and wasn't clear enough in orders to his subordinates.

Well, yes those are all possibilities, but IMHO the most likely one is that they (Lebanese Army) screwed up.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Someone (I suspect) made a blunder on the Leb side.

Normally they're terrified of provoking a response from the IDF.

And whats the casualties on this, one dead IDF officer, three dead Leb army soldiers and a reporter - all because someone takes exception to a tree being felled, complete idiocy and a stupid waste of people's life's.

BluePlanet

Some neck of the IDF.
Oh well, at least some of them got killed.

They bungled the raid on an aid flotilla, now they bungled a tree felling operation.

BlaasForRafa

BluePlanet wrote: »

Some neck of the IDF.
Oh well, at least some of them got killed.

They bungled the raid on an aid flotilla, now they bungled a tree felling operation.

What in the hell are you talking about? Had you actually read the thread you would know that the IDF followed the correct procedures, informed the UN and Lebanese in advance and conducted the operation accordingly. It was the Lebanese who fired first and started this incident.

MrDarcy

The Israeli's should have sub contracted in Dublin County Council to deal with the offending tree, it would have taken 16 safety committee meetings, four union committee meetings, one outsourced cost-benefit analysis, a procedural audit, a few planning meetings, and two decision appeals hearings, just to discover that the funds wouldn't be available to deal with the tree in question until 2091.

Archie D Bunker

Gotta wonder though - what was a reporter doing there?

Scofflaw

BluePlanet wrote: »

Oh well, at least some of them got killed.

Not an acceptable comment.

moderately,
Scofflaw

BlaasForRafa

MrDarcy wrote: »

The Israeli's should have sub contracted in Dublin County Council to deal with the offending tree, it would have taken 16 safety committee meetings, four union committee meetings, one outsourced cost-benefit analysis, a procedural audit, a few planning meetings, and two decision appeals hearings, just to discover that the funds wouldn't be available to deal with the tree in question until 2091.

You forgot the completely unnecessary strike and obligitory gathering around a brazier warming their hands.

BluePlanet

So cheerleading for the death of the Iranian president is ok, but it's not ok to cheerlead for the death of IDF?

FunnyStuff

BluePlanet wrote: »

So cheerleading for the death of the Iranian president is ok, but it's not ok to cheerlead for the death of IDF?

It should never be ok to cheer for the death of anyone, these dead soldiers are someone's child, husband, father.

Fuhrer

BluePlanet wrote: »

So cheerleading for the death of the Iranian president is ok, but it's not ok to cheerlead for the death of IDF?

Evidently so.

Scofflaw

FunnyStuff wrote: »

It should never be ok to cheer for the death of anyone, these dead soldiers are someone's child, husband, father.

Exactly so, and this thread can also be closed if necessary.

A reminder that if you have an issue with moderation, PM the moderator, don't comment on thread. If your issue is that "other people are being let away with what I've been infracted for", then use the Report button - that's what it's for. We're not omniscient, and only a machine could read every post in every thread.

moderately,
Scofflaw

FlutterinBantam

Well put, Scoffers.

A Dub in Glasgo

Rayan Wrong Pastrami wrote: »

And whats the casualties on this, one dead IDF officer, three dead Leb army soldiers and a reporter - all because someone takes exception to a tree being felled, complete idiocy and a stupid waste of people's life's.

Agree with the last part although considering 4 of the dead including the civilian were at the hand of the Israelis, I hardly think the Leb Army are fully culpable here

arybvtcw0eolkf

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Agree with the last part although considering 4 of the dead including the civilian were at the hand of the Israelis, I hardly think the Leb Army are fully culpable here

They got off lightly so, and I'm not being flippant when I say that.

But there's a reason why the Leb army are terrified of provoking a response from the IDF - its because the price for taking the life of an Israeli is very high.

I've seen them shell an area for hour's after losing a soldier in battle, and I'm not saying thats right or wrong - its just the way it is, the Leb army know this, UNIFIL know it, Hezbollah know it (but they hide in civilian population centre's).

So an IDF soldier make's a blue line incursion in a cherry picker, and as I've stated earlier this would have been notified to UNIFIL OP's in Naqoura & to the Leb Army - some idiot takes a crack shot and kills a soldier - this is the price for that idiotic action.

I feel sorry for them all, most likely the fvck'tard who fired the shot is alive & well and knocking back a few cold Almaza this evening, no doubt a hero.

A Dub in Glasgo

You have just made a very good case of why the Leb Army are not fully culpable here.... Israeli over-reaction and total ignorance of proportionality. Some may think that is their right and that is fine and it does not absolve the Israelis of taking responsibility for their own actions.

FlutterinBantam

Rayan Wrong Pastrami wrote: »

They got off lightly so, and I'm not being flippant when I say that.

But there's a reason why the Leb army are terrified of provoking a response from the IDF - its because the price for taking the life of an Israeli is very high.

I've seen them shell an area for hour's after losing a soldier in battle, and I'm not saying thats right or wrong - its just the way it is, the Leb army know this, UNIFIL know it, Hezbollah know it (but they hide in civilian population centre's).

So an IDF soldier make's a blue line incursion in a cherry picker, and as I've stated earlier this would have been notified to UNIFIL OP's in Naqoura & to the Leb Army - some idiot takes a crack shot and kills a soldier - this is the price for that idiotic action.

I feel sorry for them all, most likely the fvck'tard who fired the shot is alive & well and knocking back a few cold Almaza this evening, no doubt a hero.

All these snipers are treated as heroes around here Mak.

Except from people like you who have first hand experience.

Wonder why

arybvtcw0eolkf

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You have just made a very good case of why the Leb Army are not fully culpable here.... Israeli over-reaction and total ignorance of proportionality. Some may think that is their right and that is fine and it does not absolve the Israelis of taking responsibility for their own actions.

I didn't see any reports issued by UNIFIL, but I'd have expected a much more robust response from the IDF. The Leb's got off very lightly.

And it doesn't have to be the IDF, it could have been another army and I'd have expected a similar response.

Here's the norm anytime I served there...

And this happened lots of times, however I never seen the Leb army do it. Normally it would be the Hezbollah..

Pre-Qana the IDF would knock the crap out of South Lebanon all day and night - no warnings, and everywhere would get it - MBT, mortar, 155 arty, the lot.

Post-Qana the IDF would contact UNIFIL Operations and give notice of the area to be shelled (shell op warnings), the time shelling would commence & finish. Sometimes they'd tell us when they were going to use, ie Air Force, Navy (rarely) 155mm arty or smaller. This info would be passed along to the Leb army, NGO's on the ground, Red Cross etc.

One thing about the IDF, they're very aware that they're the most closely watched military in the world. A lot of times their actions wouldn't have you believe that, but thats how it is. And whats shocking to you is really just another military action to a soldier - to coin a phrase "War's hell & combats a killer" - the people who pull off stupid attacks like this against the IDF engineers would do well to remember that.

Again I'm not being flippant about this, I've served there lots of times since 1988 & it really was my bread & butter for a long time. So I speak matter of fact about it.

BlaasForRafa

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Agree with the last part although considering 4 of the dead including the civilian were at the hand of the Israelis, I hardly think the Leb Army are fully culpable here

The lebanese army ambushed the Israelis, they are completely responsible for all that came from that.

johnnyskeleton

MrDarcy wrote: »

The Israeli's should have sub contracted in Dublin County Council to deal with the offending tree, it would have taken 16 safety committee meetings, four union committee meetings, one outsourced cost-benefit analysis, a procedural audit, a few planning meetings, and two decision appeals hearings, just to discover that the funds wouldn't be available to deal with the tree in question until 2091.

An Irish peace. We will confuse the world with so much chat and mindlessly inefficient bureacracy that they'll all get board and head to the pub. Where we'll chat to them some more, until we own all their houses.

I'm up for it.

johnnyskeleton

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You have just made a very good case of why the Leb Army are not fully culpable here.... Israeli over-reaction and total ignorance of proportionality. Some may think that is their right and that is fine and it does not absolve the Israelis of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Yes I suppose he does.

But why does someone always have to be culpable when it comes to the Middle East?

I mean, most Irish people would take objection if it were suggested that the troubles were all the fault of the IRA or the British Army (or any other paramilitary group you wish to choose). No matter what side you are on, be die hard Republican or die hard Unionist, it would just be wrong to say in black and white terms that one side or the other was right, and even if they flattered your vanity by saying your side was right (e.g. saying it's the Brit's fault for conquering Ireland to a Republican etc), they would still be saying something you know is very far from the truth.

But yet people can have clear cut views on the Middle East. The Lebanese/Palestinians are good, therefore they are always right and Israel is always wrong, or Israel is good, therefore they are always right and it is the Lebanese/Palestinians who are wrong.

So it's a long and difficult policial and social issue that rarely has any clear cut answers. Or, to be a bit glib, they're all acting like a bunch of drunkards turfed out at 2.30 and ready for a fight.

arybvtcw0eolkf

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Yes I suppose he does.

Well not really, I mean. Who over reacted to a cherry picker crossing a fence to carry out routine maintenance?.. Lads, this work is almost daily along the blue line, and like I said there are good and workable protocols in place.

If the Leb army objects to anything they make their representations through UNIFIL. And believe it or not UNIFIL have a very good & close working relationship with both sides - and in fact stronger in some ways with the IDF.

Its pretty plain to see that someone ignored accepted protocols and took it upon themselves to kill someone, and tbh the response from the IDF was very restrained.. The Americans, Brits, Indians, Canadians etc etc would have taken similar retaliatory action, it just suits some people when its the IDF - as I said earlier, they're the most closely watched military in the world.

Plus there's an assumption in the minds of many here that once the Israeli's are involved there's an assumption of guilt and wrong doing.

Ping Chow Chi

It sounds like someone on Lebanese side screwed up to be honest. Just be greatful that it didn't lead to a bigger escalation.