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Lebanese troops open fire on IDF engineers

  • 03-08-2010 04:51PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭


    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/3-lebanese-soldiers-journalist-killed-in-clash-on-israel-lebanon-border-1.305734
    Since the end of the Second Lebanon War, the IDF has conducted patrols up to the international border, which in some places is on the Lebanese side of the border fence. It is possible that Tuesday's incident was caused by one of the sides misidentifying the correct location of the border. In Lebanon, there was a report that Lebanese soldiers had demanded that Israeli troops leave the area before the exchange of fire took place.

    Responding to the incident, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman authorized Israel's UN ambassador Gabriella Shalev to lodge an official complaint against Lebanon with the UN Security Council.

    and
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-officer-killed-in-clash-on-israel-lebanon-border-1.305791
    One Israeli officer was killed during clashes between Israel and the Lebanese army along the border on Tuesday. 45-year-old Lt. Col. Dov Harari, from Netanya, was a reserves battalion commander in the engineering corps.
    Exchange of fire on the border between Israel and Lebanon - August 3, 2010
    Exchange of fire on the border between Israel and Lebanon - August 3, 2010Yaron Kaminsky
    1/16

    Another Israeli officer sustained severe wounds and has been admitted to Rambam Medical Center in Haifa. He is in stable condition.

    Lebanese and Israeli troops exchanged fire on the border Tuesday in the most serious clashes since a fierce war four years ago, and Lebanon said at least three of its soldiers and a journalist were killed in shelling.

    From the reports so far it seems that as the IDF were removing some scrub/trees on the Israeli side of the border they came under fire from Lebanese troops who may have misidentified the true location of the border. The result was one senior IDF officer killed and another wounded and 3 Lebanese soldiers and a journalist killed in a retaliatory shelling and helicopter strike of a lebanese army post.

    On a border that is a powderkeg one would have thought that the Lebanese would have consulted the United Nations border troops before shooting first. Lets hope it dosen't escalate any further.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/3-lebanese-soldiers-journalist-killed-in-clash-on-israel-lebanon-border-1.305734



    and
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-officer-killed-in-clash-on-israel-lebanon-border-1.305791



    From the reports so far it seems that as the IDF were removing some scrub/trees on the Israeli side of the border they came under fire from Lebanese troops who may have misidentified the true location of the border. The result was one senior IDF officer killed and another wounded and 3 Lebanese soldiers and a journalist killed in a retaliatory shelling and helicopter strike of a lebanese army post.

    On a border that is a powderkeg one would have thought that the Lebanese would have consulted the United Nations border troops before shooting first. Lets hope it dosen't escalate any further.

    The Leb army are idiots, you'd have to work with them to understand!.

    I wonder what part of the 'Blue Line' (Lebanese/Israeli border) this incident took place, any mention of it?.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    The Leb army are idiots, you'd have to work with them to understand!.

    I wonder what part of the 'Blue Line' (Lebanese/Israeli border) this incident took place, any mention of it?.

    Its near Kiryat Shemona, theres a little spur of Israel that sticks up into Lebanon, thats where it happened.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Hopefully these murderers will be brought to justice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    You have to admire the propaganda. An 'exchange of fire' which saw an IDF soldier killed by the Lebanese after they crossed the border and then Lebanese soldiers and a civilian killed in an artillery barrage. Not exactly the OP's story

    These pictures very clearly show the IDF were in Lebanon when the Lebanese fired warning shots. See picture 2

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10853998


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭Ben Hadad


    Hopefully these murderers will be brought to justice.

    Yeah me to. I hope all murderers are brought to justice.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Hopefully these murderers will be brought to justice.

    Who are they here? The Lebanese soldiers who tackled an illegal incursion initially with warning fire or the IDF who called in artillery that killed a civilian?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭Shin Bet


    http://idfspokesperson.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/11.jpg

    why not understand what a buffer zone is before you try and twist things saying they were over the border.

    Along that strech there is at parts 4 fences seperating Israel and Lebannon.
    as for the post saying they fired warning shots...
    Its not warning shots when they get people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Shin Bet wrote: »
    http://idfspokesperson.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/11.jpg

    why not understand what a buffer zone is before you try and twist things saying they were over the border.

    Along that strech there is at parts 4 fences seperating Israel and Lebannon.
    as for the post saying they fired warning shots...
    Its not warning shots when they get people.

    The Lebanese disagree, they say that was the border line. Regardless, the IDF have no business within the buffer zone one way or another - its a demilitarised space.

    Your picture strangely has this buffer zone in Israel
    Have to chuckle when the IDF claim that they are the victims of unprovoked brutality.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Considering the IDF's reputation, concerning there ability to tell the truth, I see no reason to believe there version of events. Its seem most likely that it is the Lebanese who are telling the truth, but I can't say who is right or wrong definitively just yet, but considering the IDF's well known lies, i simply cannot trust a single thing they say.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    wes wrote: »
    Considering the IDF's reputation, concerning there ability to tell the truth, I see no reason to believe there version of events. Its seem most likely that it is the Lebanese who are telling the truth, but I can't say who is right or wrong definitively just yet, but considering the IDF's well known lies, i simply cannot trust a single thing they say.

    To me the second picture is very telling. Soldiers in full combat kit hanging over a barbed wire fence. Even if that line is not the border, rather a buffer zone, they clearly weren't going about their normal day.

    Why do they need to clear firing lines into Lebanon anyway?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭Shin Bet


    To me the second picture is very telling. Soldiers in full combat kit hanging over a barbed wire fence. Even if that line is not the border, rather a buffer zone, they clearly weren't going about their normal day.

    Why do they need to clear firing lines into Lebanon anyway?


    They dont they have plenty of things that can fire over trees.

    Its clearing trees that were hindering an observation point a common thing with militarys throught the world.
    Even the UN says the Lebanese were wrong a simple search on google will show you that from sources you might rather believe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Shin Bet wrote: »
    They dont they have plenty of things that can fire over trees.

    Its clearing trees that were hindering an observation point a common thing with militarys throught the world.
    Even the UN says the Lebanese were wrong a simple search on google will show you that from sources you might rather believe.

    Do they? Source?

    To sum up

    IDF lean over a barbed wire fence to cut down a tree so they have a clear line of fire on a village. There is a dispute over whether that fence is a buffer zone or the legitimate border. Lebanese fire warning shots. IDF return fire and a gun battle ensues that the IDF lose and an officer is killed. The IDF then call in artillery and 3 Lebanese soldiers and a civilian die.

    Any dispute on that?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    To me the second picture is very telling. Soldiers in full combat kit hanging over a barbed wire fence. Even if that line is not the border, rather a buffer zone, they clearly weren't going about their normal day.

    Why do they need to clear firing lines into Lebanon anyway?

    Probably so that they can see people coming up to the border.

    Considering only five died, it wasn't the most disasterous tree-cutting operation in history. One must look at Panmunjom where a tree was blocking a UN outpost's field of vision, and they sent some people to go remove it. That one resulted in one of the largest military mobilisations outside of the Vietnam War until the 1980s.

    This was attempt #2. With more firepower. (Operation Paul Bunyan)
    Start-cutting2.jpg

    As for why they're wearing combat kit, why provide a nice, unarmoured target? Play safe, wear your gear.

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭Shin Bet


    16 posts to completly knock it off topic and country is that a record ??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Shin Bet wrote: »
    16 posts to completly knock it off topic and country is that a record ??

    Have to agree with that. Pablo's contributions on this site are spectacularly irrelevant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    To me the second picture is very telling. Soldiers in full combat kit hanging over a barbed wire fence. Even if that line is not the border, rather a buffer zone, they clearly weren't going about their normal day.

    Why do they need to clear firing lines into Lebanon anyway?

    In case of a Hezbollah attack. Iran has been arming them in case you didn't realise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    the truth is that the Israel soldier was cutting the tree and thier decision was to put cameras but thiere was a trees which were making trouble to the camera, trees was inside the Lebanese border, Lebanese solder have the right to defend their territory including the trees which are inside there border.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    as Eddie Murphy would say "knock this **** off""

    As the moderator would say, knock that **** off, pablo escobar. You've contributed nothing worthwhile to this thread.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    digme wrote: »
    the truth is that the Israel soldier was cutting the tree and thier decision was to put cameras but thiere was a trees which were making trouble to the camera, trees was inside the Lebanese border, Lebanese solder have the right to defend their territory including the trees which are inside there border.

    The UN forces on the ground have issue a report that the IDF did NOT go over the Lebanese border. .

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/unifil-official-idf-did-not-enter-lebanon-prior-to-border-clash-1.305929
    Asserting the IDF's claim that it had informed the Lebanese side of the planned border works, Strugar said that UNIFIL had received a message from the IDF "regarding these works, and we had passed that on to the Lebanese army."

    "We deal with complaints on provocations of Lebanese soldiers against IDF units on a daily basis," Strugar told Army Radio, adding incidents occur "almost every day, there's a lot of tension round the border, but what happened is the worst incident since 2006."

    The incident began at about 8 A.M. Tuesday, when IDF Northern Command informed UNIFIL, the UN Interim Force in Lebanon, that it planned to clear vegetation along the border fence that was disrupting its soldiers' line of sight - an operation the IDF termed "routine maintenance," of the type it performs regularly.
    A senior IDF officer said last night that intelligence information indicates the ambush was planned and carried out on the orders of a Lebanese company commander. The Lebanese Army's high command, he said,apparently did order the troops to create an incident to impress the various media outlets present, but told them only to fire in the air. The local commander then decided on his own initiative to escalate the incident by targeting the Israeli soldiers directly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    its a demilitarised space.

    Seriously?.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Why did the IDF try to remove the trees themselves? Whether the fence was the beginning of a buffer zone or the Lebanese border, why did Israel not ask the UN to do the removal?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Otacon wrote: »
    Why did the IDF try to remove the trees themselves? Whether the fence was the beginning of a buffer zone or the Lebanese border, why did Israel not ask the UN to do the removal?

    And why would the UN remove tree's for anyone?.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    And why would the UN remove tree's for anyone?.

    I haven't read anywhere that the Lebanese had issue with the trees being removed. It seems like it was purely the 'incursion' of the IDF.

    To maintain the peace, I cannot understand why the UN would not want to accommodate the Israelis in this case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Otacon wrote: »
    To maintain the peace, I cannot understand why the UN would not want to accommodate the Israelis in this case.

    This sort of stuff is just routine border/fence work for the IDF.

    They give UNIFIL OP's in Naqoura notice of any work being carried out along the Blue Line. The work is monitored by UNIFIL and any incursions noted and representations are made to the relevant authorities, including the UNHQ in New York.

    UNIFIL troops are not mandated to do this work for anyone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The UN forces on the ground have issue a report that the IDF did NOT go over the Lebanese border. .

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/unifil-official-idf-did-not-enter-lebanon-prior-to-border-clash-1.305929

    Well, you forgot to quote this part:
    However, the UNIFIL official added that the information he had was "preliminary," adding that he will look into the evidence "more thoroughly" later in the day.
    "The situation became tense right away, with the Lebanon army also being there," Strugar said, adding that UNIFIL forces had tried "to calm the situation and allow the IDF to work."

    It looks like a preliminary statement has been made on the matter, which to be fair does favor Israel's side of the story, but I find the IDF intelligence to be highly suspect, considering that a more likely explanation is that Lebanese forces screwed up, and didn't plan a provocation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    wes wrote: »
    a more likely explanation is that Lebanese forces screwed up, and didn't plan a provocation.

    More then likely, we wouldn't have known them to be the brightest bunch!.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    wes wrote: »
    It looks like a preliminary statement has been made on the matter, which to be fair does favor Israel's side of the story, but I find the IDF intelligence to be highly suspect, considering that a more likely explanation is that Lebanese forces screwed up, and didn't plan a provocation.

    Its possible that it may have been a screw up from an individual Leb platoon or it may have been that the local Leb commander wanted to put on a show of strength for the media from beirut and wasn't clear enough in orders to his subordinates.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Its possible that it may have been a screw up from an individual Leb platoon or it may have been that the local Leb commander wanted to put on a show of strength for the media from beirut and wasn't clear enough in orders to his subordinates.

    Well, yes those are all possibilities, but IMHO the most likely one is that they (Lebanese Army) screwed up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Someone (I suspect) made a blunder on the Leb side.

    Normally they're terrified of provoking a response from the IDF.

    And whats the casualties on this, one dead IDF officer, three dead Leb army soldiers and a reporter - all because someone takes exception to a tree being felled, complete idiocy and a stupid waste of people's life's.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Some neck of the IDF.
    Oh well, at least some of them got killed.

    They bungled the raid on an aid flotilla, now they bungled a tree felling operation.


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