Effects of new law interpretations

profitius

How do you think it will change things?

I reckon it'll be a reward for the more skillful teams who like to keep ball in hand. The defensive style of Leinster and Ireland will have to change because attacking rugby is being rewarded now.

There should be more tries and faster paced game with more emphasis on ball in hand especially because of the change to the kicking law.

So in the ML I predict the gap between top and bottom to grow a bit, less skillful teams to find it harder and a big change in full back play. Maybe not good news for Rob Kearney.

The breakdown and more attacking style is having an effect on openside play. A more skillful link man could benefit here.

It should be interesting!

profitius

U

profitius wrote: »

How do you think it will change things?

I reckon it'll be a reward for the more skillful teams who like to keep ball in hand. The defensive style of Leinster and Ireland will have to change because attacking rugby is being rewarded now.

There should be more tries and faster paced game with more emphasis on ball in hand especially because of the change to the kicking law.

So in the ML I predict the gap between top and bottom to grow a bit, less skillful teams to find it harder and a big change in full back play. Maybe not good news for Rob Kearney.

The breakdown and more attacking style is having an effect on openside play. A more skillful link man could benefit here.

It should be interesting!

A dig at Leinster and Kearney all in the one post,nice.I expect Leinster and the Ospreys to take the piss in the league,although I expect teams with average backlines like Munster and Arioni will struggle

Amazotheamazing

Kearney can counter-attack, for whatever reason Kidney and Gaffney won't let him do so for Leinster or Ireland. Hopefully this will change.

Leinster also have the players to play a fast paced game, probably the fastest of all the Irish packs, they haven't had to over the last two seasons.

I don't think it'll affect Munster as much as it would have if Kidney was still in charge, McGahan and Fisher have increased Munster's skills a lot, and guys like TOL, Warwick, Earls, Jones etc are as fast as anyone out there in their positions.

profitius

Garryowns will still be used but there'll be less aimless kicking. Its the aimless kicking that will get punished.

Malachi Raspy Signal wrote: »

U
A dig at Leinster and Kearney all in the one post,nice.I expect Leinster and the Ospreys to take the piss in the league,although I expect teams with average backlines like Munster and Arioni will struggle

I think it will benefit Leinster generally as they have some of the most talented backs.

I said Leinster and Ireland will have to change and they will. They're style was built on defense last season. Not having a go just stating what everybody (including Leinster fans) already know. I've also stated that Munster were sh!te last season so no I wasn't having a dig at Leinster and I'll leave all the Leinster/Munster, Sexton/O'Gara debates for others.

Kearneys strengths are kicking and catching. South Africans probably used that tactic the most in the last 2 seasons and it suited Kearney perfectly who is one of the worlds best playing that way. The new rules means there'll be less of it so it won't suit him. He is a bit one dimensional.

Im only messing about the leinster thing.I dissagree strongly about Kearney though,he has a tendancy not to pass but he can definitely counter attack.Look up his try against the ospreys where he runs the pitch.

People think he cant because he kicks so much,he only does that because he is told to.

thomond2006

It will take time for the likes of Munster to get used to this new intensity/pace of rugby.

Maybe there will be more of an emphasis on picking forwards with pace (Goodbye Hayes, Hello Mushy).

The team that adapts first to the new game should 'clean house'.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

It will take time for the likes of Munster to get used to this new intensity/pace of rugby.

Maybe there will be more of an emphasis on picking forwards with pace (Goodbye Hayes, Hello Mushy).

The team that adapts first to the new game should 'clean house'.

You have to remember that supposedly our teams already
played these interpretations for a couple of 6 nations and heineken cup.In these games we saw alot more contesting of the breakdown than in the sh.
Unfortunately I think we are going to end up with 2 kinds of game and the sh jumping further ahead.
Maybe tim robbins can enlighten us?

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

It will take time for the likes of Munster to get used to this new intensity/pace of rugby.

Maybe there will be more of an emphasis on picking forwards with pace (Goodbye Hayes, Hello Mushy).

The team that adapts first to the new game should 'clean house'.

The variance of the standard of referring will have more of affect than teams adapting to the new laws. Imgaine having a run of James Jones reffing your games :eek:

daveharnett

profitius wrote: »

How do you think it will change things?

For me, it seems like this interpretation is giving players and referees permission to revert to the pre-elv breakdown. After a horrendous start to last season, the requirement for players to stay on their feet was slowly and quietly relaxed. Now, the requirement for tackled players to release immediately has implicitly been relaxed, so we're back to square one - the ruck can only be turned over by overwhelming force.

wonton

its a strange feeling watching the tri nations matchs, the tries arent as dramatic and dont stick out as much with so many of them.

almost basketball like at some stages, like when there was a minute between 1 try in the oz and ab match.

but it'll prob just take a while to get used to

wonton

wonton wrote: »

its a strange feeling watching the tri nations matchs, the tries arent as dramatic and dont stick out as much with so many of them.

almost basketball like at some stages, like when there was a minute between 1 try in the oz and ab match.

but it'll prob just take a while to get used to

This has always been the case in the SH tbh.

AUS 38 SA 27

SA 23 NZ 30

SA 33 AUS 31

I have left out some lower scoring matches but im just using these as an example.

wonton

okay but look at the all blacks matches against wales and ireland.

and the springboks against italy and france.

have the summer internationals always been like that too?

wonton

wonton wrote: »

okay but look at the all blacks matches against wales and ireland.

and the springboks against italy and france.

have the summer internationals always been like that too?

The Tri nations matches are different beasts because over their they value entertainment esp in AUS and NZ.

Thus those two especially actually try to run the ball and play running rugby so they mostly have always had big scores.

The greatest game of rugby ever played is testament to this.
If we got a score like this in the 6 nations the headlines would be "rugby is dead" whereas over their the scorline is celebrated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heoO_5MvZ0w

This match was in AUS in front of 110,000 people,the sport is dying over there because it has to compete with Afl and league.The players go out their knowing they have to put on a show to keep the crowds.
When they play NH teams except maybe France they encounter teams who dont want to play running rugby against them because they know they will lose and so the games are usually tighter lower scoring affairs.

Goodluck2me

Malachi Raspy Signal wrote: »

The greatest game of rugby ever played is testament to this.
If we got a score like this in the 6 nations the headlines would be "rugby is dead" whereas over their the scorline is celebrated.

No we wouldn't!

People enjoy high scoring six nations games as well so long as they are well contested. It becomes less interesting when its Italy being handed another 50+ point defeat, some of the Ireland France and Ireland v England matches have been the best in recent years and have had generally high scores.

Goodluck2me

Goodluck2me wrote: »

No we wouldn't!

People enjoy high scoring six nations games as well so long as they are well contested. It becomes less interesting when its Italy being handed another 50+ point defeat, some of the Ireland France and Ireland v England matches have been the best in recent years and have had generally high scores.

I just realised you only come to this forum to reply negatively to anything i say and post nothing more.Do me a favour and never reply to anything I ever write again in any forum.It is not addressed or directed to you and does not concern you!

Goodluck2me

Malachi Raspy Signal wrote: »

I just realised you only come to this forum to reply negatively to anything i say and post nothing more.Do me a favour and never reply to anything I ever write again in any forum.It is not addressed or directed to you and does not concern you!

You really are that important, that all I do is reply to you! get over yourself, perhaps it's because most of your posts are ridiculous?

TheTMO

Goodluck2me wrote: »

You really are that important, that all I do is reply to you! get over yourself, perhaps it's because most of your posts are ridiculous?

Goose is one of the more colourful posters on this forum and is beloved by all.

PhatPiggins

TheTMO wrote: »

Goose is one of the more colourful posters on this forum and is beloved by all.

Though surely not as loved as you are

RuggieBear

Goose banned.

TheTMO

TheTMO wrote: »

Goose is one of the more colourful posters on this forum and is beloved by all.

RuggieBear
Goose banned.

Obviously not

profitius

We'll start to see in a few weeks how the new interpretations are refereed.

Ciaran-Irl

I've seen a couple of Top 14 matches, and haven't noticed any change really. Wonder how much attention they're paying to Paddy.

toomevara

Going to see a big change in the premiership here this season by all accounts. Benefit of the doubt to go to attacking team at the breakdown with defenders being closely reffed. Should free things up somewhat...

JustinDee

Malachi Raspy Signal wrote: »

This match was in AUS in front of 110,000 people,the sport is dying over there because it has to compete with Afl and league.The players go out their knowing they have to put on a show to keep the crowds.
When they play NH teams except maybe France they encounter teams who dont want to play running rugby against them because they know they will lose and so the games are usually tighter lower scoring affairs.

???

That game was played when both the Wallabies and All Blacks had absolutely fantastic squads and were evenly matched. Both teams had great playmakers, packs and gamebreakers. The All Blacks were on the way back from getting booted out of the RWC just over half a year previously. The Wallabies were on a roll as World Champions and were looking good to win the Bledisloe Cup before the Tri Nations got going.
At the time, rugby union in Australia was doing very well. Stadia filled for internationals and Super 12 games. The depth of players staying put at home was healthy.
Rugby League was trying to pick itself up after the so-called Super League war.
AFL had stagnated a little bar a phase in Sydney.
Soccer had nowhere near the profile it currently enjoys in Aussie.

The reason the teams in the 'Sloe game you linked actually played as they did was to win the best way they could ie. by using their strengths. Entertainment of the crowds was a result of the game, not the cause of it.

Daragh86

Defo going to have huge changes in the game, although more long term than short I'd say. It'll, as usual, take the Irish a lot longer to get a hold of the changes than anyone else.

The game has obviously speeded up - obvious reasons. The tackle area is going to be really interesting - teams might look at keep the ball carrier off the ground in contact to slow down play, allowing defence to re align? Or defence may force the ball carrier to come inside, take soft contact in the tackle allowing the ball carrier to get over the gain line and have the defensive 6/7/8 contesting for ball a lot quicker (obviously this would only be ocasional during games)? Maybe we'll see a lot more shooters from defence, I think this will be the way the majority will try to cope with faster attacking ball.

Scrum time in defence will become even more important to counter act a slight wheel, defences will want to give their 7/8 that increasingly important few feet that'll you'll get out of a slight wheel in a scrum. Defo could be the difference in the tackle area on first phase.

Will probably see more teams contesting at 4 and 6 in the lineouts and generally leaving the opposition with clean 2 ball unless they are in their own 22. No body will want to defend quick off the top ball from the back of the lineout. Shortened lineouts will give a massive attacking advantage with quicker ball from first/second phase.

I reckon teams really need to concentrate on the defence end of these changes, attack comes more natural then defence and it will be a real challenge for a lot of teams to work out the method (s) of defending this quicker ball. Personally, obviously depending on the team but generally, I'd use a basic drift defence with shooters with huge commitment on a scramble defence coming through. Very basic and minimal fringe defence on rucks, but also huge commitment and organisation on fringe defence will put basics in place for capable shooters from 12/13.

I'm looking forward to this being pulled to bits!! :P

toomevara

First concrete examples of the new law interpretations being felt according to Shaun Edwards in today's Guardian;

The opening weekend of the Premiership showed how much has changed in a year: Wasps made 160 tackles against Harlequins compared with games last season when we had to make only 50. It is about learning and adapting, not panicking.

profitius

toomevara wrote: »

First concrete examples of the new law interpretations being felt according to Shaun Edwards in today's Guardian;

Scott Johnson fears laws may spell end for Martyn Williams

SCOTT JOHNSON has issued a stark warning that the new interpretations of rugby’s laws could end the careers of Marty Holah and Martyn Williams.

The Ospreys coach has sounded a note of caution on the new direction of the game and the edict on the new interpretations at the breakdown issued by the International Rugby Board.

The former Wales and Australia skills coach revealed his fears the contest at the breakdown is now so much in favour of the attacking side it could the make the role of a genuine openside flanker obsolete.

The likes of former All Black Holah and Wales legend Williams, who are in the mould of the classic No 7, have built their careers on the ability to turn over ball at the tackle area.

The recent Tri-Nations campaign, which has seen a plethora of high-scoring games, has seen referees punish the defensive side at nearly every opportunity at the contact area.

But Johnson, who was clearly frustrated at the interpretations of Scottish official Peter Allen in his side’s 27-26 defeat to Ulster last weekend, has called for clarification and consistency from referees at the tackle area.

“We want to make sure what rules we are playing because it makes a big difference to the likes of Marty Holah and Martyn Williams,” said Johnson.

“It makes a massive difference and you only have to watch the Tri-Nations to see that the interpretation is favouring the attacking team.

“There have been a few turnovers, but it is largely in favour of the attacking team.

“A stroke of a pen can drastically change the importance of a player, there is no doubt about that.

“I did think Phil Waugh, who I didn’t think would adjust as well as he did in the Super 14, would be really affected.

“But he adapted really quickly and found another skill to his game. It does mean that some of us may just go for a bigger back row and not have a genuine openside.

“If you can control the ball, all you need is a big set-piece and to defend it.

“Look at Quade Cooper, he is a wonderfully attacking No 10 for the Wallabies, but he knows he is going to get the ball quite a bit.

“His side are allowed to keep it and it makes him a real threat, but the stroke of a pen can change everything for some types of players.”

Johnson argues that the different interpretations in the northern and southern hemispheres will only undermine world rugby.

The Aussie, who has worked at the highest level in both hemispheres, has called for greater consistency from referees.

“It’s important we get some uniformity,” said Johnson.

“We just looked at some of the footage of a variety of games last weekend and they are refereed this way, that way and halfway.

“We need some serious understanding of the interpretation because if you look at some of the southern hemisphere games it is being refereed completely differently by, in some cases, European referees.

“That is fantastic, but are they going to do the same when it is wet and cold up here?

“We have spent a lot of the season working at the tackle contest and trying to understand it, but it has bitten us a couple of times already and especially last weekend.”

Johnson admits he has concerns about the new interpretation, but generally he understands the desire to open the game up and favour the attacking side.

“I am really happy with the new legislation, but it has to be refereed that way,” said Johnson. “We are half-cooked and I want some clarity and we need that.

“In the Tri-Nations it’s clear it has been given an attacking focus, but the biggest test will be in the Test matches up here in the autumn.

“I could show you five or 10 clips from last weekend, where it is clear the tackler has to get away, but the referee has penalised the non-tackler as well.

“He is looking so hard at the defending side, the side without the ball, that it’s a clear shot for the attacking team.”

While Johnson clearly has issues with the new law interpretation, he has no problems with the Ospreys’ opponents, Benetton Treviso, at the Liberty Stadium, this evening.

Treviso recorded a 34-28 victory over the Scarlets in Italy on the opening weekend of the new Magners League campaign.

Johnson claims the Italian threat shouldn’t be underestimated and welcomes the inclusion of Treviso and Aironi in the new 12-team league.

“People have got to understand Italian rugby has improved,” said Johnson

“We have had two genuine competitors join us and, for rugby as a whole, it is wonderful because it gives us greater credibility in Europe.

“The Magners League has produced so much for Europe over the last five or six years. It will make Europe a bit more difficult and that can only be good for the game.

“It sounds disparaging to the Scarlets, but I am not being that, I just think its good for the tournament and for Treviso that they won.”

The Ospreys still aren’t back to full strength with the likes of Wales skipper Ryan Jones, Mike Phillips, James Hook and Alun Wyn Jones all still missing.

Johnson has a 12-man injury list to contend with, but he has warned his Ospreys side to expect a battle on their own patch.

“They will be very physical and they are very strong in certain areas of the game like the set-piece,” said Johnson.

“That is the Italian way and the foreigners will give them a bit of flair. You want a different way of playing rugby, an Italian way, and in 10 years we will be talking about them like we were about France many years ago.

“They bring something different to the tournament and to rugby with their Latin way and it’s a good thing.

“It will be a tough battle and we are expecting nothing less.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/swansea-ospreys/2010/09/10/scott-johnson-fears-laws-may-spell-end-for-martyn-williams-91466-27238421/

Interesting that he says some coaches might go for a bigger backrow. I think the backrow will be overall lighter because of the extra workload. Shaun Edwards explaining the increased tackle count is an example of this.

RuggieBear

the refs just have to crack down really hard on the guys going off their feet for the "attacking" team when protecting the tackled player.

For example, the other night Munster were picking and driving near the end of the game and nearly every other time the first support players were off their feet. It was like the 2008 final all over again except this time it is supposed to be one of the things that the refs are to ping.

If the refs don't crack down on players going off their feet to prevent a "fair" contest then it won't be long before we have more of that ****e we had to endure a few years back when a team can just keep ball and make no real attempt to attack in order to wind down the clock.

thomond2006

RuggieBear wrote: »

For example, the other night Munster were picking and driving near the end of the game and nearly every other time the first support players were off their feet. It was like the 2008 final all over again except this time it is supposed to be one of the things that the refs are to ping.

If the refs don't crack down on players going off their feet to prevent a "fair" contest then it won't be long before we have more of that ****e we had to endure a few years back when a team can just keep ball and make no real attempt to attack in order to wind down the clock.

Yeah, there was a lot of 'sealing off'. Clearly the NH and SH are still two different games.

daveharnett

For those who haven't heard, apart from the new interpretation at the tackle, the IRB have also 'highlighted' a few areas where standards have been slipping over the last few seasons.

• The team in possession obstructing when setting up a maul (lineouts/restarts) - until the maul is formed, the ball carrier must be 'tackleable'.
• Pillars ahead of the back foot (attacking and defending teams) - you can't stand where John Hayes stands.
• Offside in general play - players walking/jogging forward while offside to form the defensive line.
• The CTPE sequence to be slowed down at the scrum (again).
• Arriving players must enter the tackle area through the gate. (And not the opposition's gate )
• Scrum halves must put the ball in straight

Looking at the matches so far this season, these seem to be pretty rigorously enforced for the first five minutes or so each match.

outwest

seems to be working very well, lots of trys, and the so called cheater are getting pinged

toomevara

daveharnett wrote: »

Scrum halves must put the ball in straight

heh heh how we laughed....;). On the openside flanker debate, guys like Australia's David Pocock (player of the series for me)are showing the way forward. By God did he annoy the kiwis last weekend, and anyone who annoys the kiwis is all right in my book....