Failure to Drive on Left Hand Side of the Road

JD1763

Hi All,

My brother was driving to Navan last night, on the way up there was only 1 other car near him. It hung back a fair distance but it was obvious that it was following him. As they came to the toll booths it accelerated up behind him so he pulled over to the left lane to let it pass and as it drew level - of course, on come the lights. So he pulled in and they did the full inspection, tax, insurance, nct, license, tires - you name it they checked every last item. Everything was fine, so they then told him he may receive a fixed penalty and fine for "failing to drive on the left hand side of the road". Now he was cruising in the right hand lane, as its a two lane road, and freely admits that, but when they closed on him he did yield the lane so he wasn't hogging it and obstructing faster moving traffic or forcing cars to undertake him.

So thats the background, now my query is what exactly this offence under the RTA entails since it is a daily occurrence on any motorway/dual carriageway that cars sit in the right lane, yet I have never heard of penalty points being given for it. Is that what this offence covers - dual carriageways and motorways? Or is it for driving on the wrong side of secondary roads which is how I would have interpreted it?

I know good practice is to shift to the left when the road is clear but it seems ridiculous that you can receive penalty points for driving in the right lane on a motorway when you are not obstructing traffic or causing any danger to other motorists - as any Guard could simply cite that in their opinion you should have been in the left lane and bang heres a fine and penalty point for your troubles.

Tbh he's no angel (who is) but in this instance it seemed the guards were looking for anything to do him on but since he wasnt speeding or acting the idiot they dredged this ridiculous offence up to hit him with.

They also had a film crew in the car with them - they cheekily asked for my brothers permission to use the footage on tv - it was a very short reply!

Anan1

TBH i'm delighted to finally hear of someone being prosecuted for this.

markpb

With commenting on the right or wrong of the situation, Section 17 of the Road Traffic Act 1964 says

A driver shall drive as near to the left hand side of the roadway as is necessary in order to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or a pedestrian, approaching traffic to pass him on his right and overtaking traffic to overtake him on his right.

The penalty points website says:

Failure to drive on the left hand side of the road.
Penalty Points on Payment of Fixed Charge: 1
Penalty Points on Court Conviction: 3
Fixed Charge paid in 28 days: €60
Fixed Charge paid in next 28 days: €90

JD1763 wrote: »

Tbh he's no angel (who is) but in this instance it seemed the guards were looking for anything to do him on but since he wasnt speeding or acting the idiot they dredged this ridiculous offence up to hit him with.

In my experience, almost everyone who has been caught breaking the Road Traffic Acts thinks it's an innocent crime and that the Gardai were out to get them. Maybe when people (including the Gardai!) view RTA violations in the same light as the rest of legislation, we'll have better drivers.

JD1763

And yet you fail to acknowledge the fact as I outlined them - that 1) he was not obstructing traffic or other motorists in anyway and 2) he yielded as soon as another car approached to overtake.

Thanks markpb - but tbh the penalty points offence is not clear in that does it relate to motorways or to secondary roads where driving on the right hand side is quite clearly dangerous

TestTransmission

JD1763 wrote: »

H

I know good practice is to shift to the left when the road is clear but it seems ridiculous that you can receive penalty points for driving in the right lane on a motorway when you are not obstructing traffic or causing any danger to other motorists - as any Guard could simply cite that in their opinion you should have been in the left lane and bang heres a fine and penalty point for your troubles.

What do you mean "good practice" and "should of"

It's in the rules of the road.

bladebrew

why was he driving in the right lane if the road was empty??

he wasnt overtaking so he drives on the left its very simple, unfortunately half of ireland dont understand this rule

bazzachazza

He was HOGGING the overtaking lane.

You are only meant to be in the overtaking lane WHEN OVERTAKING.

Its not for cruising in that's what the left DRIVING lane is for.

Well done to the Gardai.

As for a ridiculous offence. Wake up this is one of the most annoying things on motorways that happens everyday.

The Gardai were following him for ages as they wanted to see if your brother had just forgotten to move back to the Driving lane.

Using lanes properly

It is very important that you understand the purpose of each lane on a motorway. To help explain how and when to move from one lane to another, each lane is given a number. The picture below shows that lane 1 is the lane nearest the hard shoulder. This is also known as the inside lane. On a two-lane motorway, the lane nearest the central median is lane 2 (also called the outside lane). On a three-lane motorway, this lane is lane 3.


Lane 1

The normal 'keep left' rule applies. Stay in this lane unless you are overtaking.

Lane 2

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.

On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

Lane 3

If you are travelling on a three-lane motorway, you must use this lane only if traffic in lanes 1 and 2 is moving in queues and you need to overtake or accommodate merging traffic. Once you've finished overtaking, move back to your left and allow faster traffic coming from behind to pass by.

You must not use the lane nearest the central median (lane 2 or lane 3, depending on the motorway width) if you are driving:

a goods vehicle with a design gross vehicle weight of more than 3,500 kilograms,
a passenger vehicle with seating for more than 8 passengers (aside from the driver), or
a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan.
You may use it, however, in exceptional circumstances when you cannot proceed in the inner lane because of a blockage ahead. You may also use it if you are at a location on a motorway where a speed limit of 80km/h or less applies

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

losthorizon

Anan1 wrote: »

TBH i'm delighted to finally hear of someone being prosecuted for this.

I agree. How many times have you been driving on a two lane road (and I dont mean a dual carraige way) and the car in front of you is in the right hand lane preventing you from passing out. About time this was stamped out.

JD1763

*sigh read the post - yes I know the rules of driving on the left - what I am querying is whether this offence applys to motorways and dual-carriageways or is it meant to apply to secondary routes where driving on the right hand side in relation to the flow of traffic would place you in the dangerous position of being on the wrong side of the road.

bazzachazza

By the way you will get very little support here in fact I think by days end you might wish you never posted this topic.

I'm absolutely delighted to hear he got done. It might be a good idea for you both to get a copy of the RULES OF THE ROAD and actually read them.

markpb

JD1763 wrote: »

*sigh read the post - yes I know the rules of driving on the left - what I am querying is whether this offence applys to motorways and dual-carriageways or is it meant to apply to secondary routes where driving on the right hand side in relation to the flow of traffic would place you in the dangerous position of being on the wrong side of the road.

The law is quite clear - it says to stay on the left. It doesn't say which type of road so it applies to all roads. The section I quoted above was re-stated in section 9 of the 1997 act (when we had a few motorways) so it's not an omission - it applies to all roads.

TestTransmission

JD1763 wrote: »

*sigh read the post - yes I know the rules of driving on the left - what I am querying is whether this offence applys to motorways and dual-carriageways or is it meant to apply to secondary routes where driving on the right hand side in relation to the flow of traffic would place you in the dangerous position of being on the wrong side of the road.

Sigh all you want,I suggest you have a read of this.

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

JD1763

Im not here for an argument - I simply wanted to know if this was the correct interpretation of the penalty point offence as after googling it and looking at various websites none of them explained exactly what the offence is.

I share the same frustrations as others about drivers not yielding the lane but quite why everyone on motors treats every post as an opportunity for confrontation is something i still dont understand. It was a simple request for information not jumping on a soapbox.

JD1763

markpb wrote: »

The law is quite clear - it says to stay on the left. It doesn't say which type of road so it applies to all roads. The section I quoted above was re-stated in section 9 of the 1997 act (when we had a few motorways) so it's not an omission - it applies to all roads.

Thanks markpb for clearing that up - appreciate the substantive reply. As I said was very hard to find a clear explanation of the offence.

Anan1

JD1763 wrote: »

I share the same frustrations as others about drivers not yielding the lane but quite why everyone on motors treats every post as an opportunity for confrontation is something i still dont understand. It was a simple request for information not jumping on a soapbox.

I can't speak for others, but what provoked me was your (and your brothers) ignorance of one of the most basic rules of the road, combined with your implication that his offence really wasn't a big deal. I find myself stuck behind such drivers on a daily basis, and it is a big deal to me.

Horse_box

JD1763 wrote: »

Im not here for an argument - I simply wanted to know if this was the correct interpretation of the penalty point offence as after googling it and looking at various websites none of them explained exactly what the offence is.

I share the same frustrations as others about drivers not yielding the lane but quite why everyone on motors treats every post as an opportunity for confrontation is something i still dont understand. It was a simple request for information not jumping on a soapbox.

I agree with you. I rarely post in here but do lurk a lot and find people are very quick to jump at posts with a sort of snappy attitude

bazzachazza

Got stuck behind a 01 DL red Focus on the M4 today from Lucan to Kilcock which is 18 kilometres their speed varied from 105k to 130k constantly I didn't flash them I just used my indicator to signal my intention that I wanted to pass them.

This behaviour is very very frustrating for other drivers. Nothing worse than watching someone HOG the overtaking lane move in to let you pass and then move back into the OVERTAKING lane as soon as you pass.

Why exactly does your brother CRUISE in the overtaking lane when there is NO traffic in the Driving lane ?

What other RULES does he ignore ?

coolmoose

On my advanced driving course the instructor (ex-Dublin Castle TC) told me it was perfectly acceptable to stay in the right hand lane as long as you were not causing an obstruction to traffic. i.e. clear road, nobody coming behind you.

I do however disagree with people hogging the overtaking lane when there are people trying to overtake them.

bazzachazza

Horse_box wrote: »

I agree with you. I rarely post in here but do lurk a lot and find people are very quick to jump at posts with a sort of snappy attitude

Being a regular in Motors and having seen on average a ONE topic per week of people bitching about Middle laners or people sitting in the OVERTAKING lane I'm not surprised by peoples and indeed my reaction when someone FINALLY gets done for this offence.

This is a HUGELY frustrating practice that seems to have spread amongst the drivers of Ireland.

bazzachazza

coolmoose wrote: »

On my advanced driving course the instructor (ex-Dublin Castle TC) told me it was perfectly acceptable to stay in the right hand lane as long as you were not causing an obstruction to traffic. i.e. clear road, nobody coming behind you.

I do however disagree with people hogging the overtaking lane when there are people trying to overtake them.

He said "Perfectly" not "Legally" acceptable.

Someone answer this question for me.

Why would you sit in the right/overtaking lane for Kilometres on end not overtaking someone ?

glic71rods46t0

While I don't condone the practice of cruising in the overtaking lane - your brother has an obvious defence in this instance - if it happened approaching the toll, then its perefectly acceptable to be in the outer lane if you wish to use the express lane at the toll.

Some posters here have expressed far too much glee for a ridiculous use of police time and effort. If they were as zealous about such things during weekday rush hour instead of a lazy catch offpeak we would all be better off.
OP - tell your brother not to accept the points and fight his case in court - good chance the judge would see it for what it is - lazy policing

Max Power1

Anan1 wrote: »

TBH i'm delighted to finally hear of someone being prosecuted for this.

My sentiments exactly.

If points for this were more widespread, journey times would decrease. Less people lanehogging means quicker journey times.

JD1763

Anan1 wrote: »

I can't speak for others, but what provoked me was your (and your brothers) ignorance of one of the most basic rules of the road, combined with your implication that his offence really wasn't a big deal. I find myself stuck behind such drivers on a daily basis, and it is a big deal to me.

I implied it wasn't as serious as some of the situations I've found myself in on various motorways and dual carriageways particularly the M50, M1 and M2, where someone holds up a massive line of traffic at peak time and refuses to yield leading to dangerous tailgating and aggressive undertaking. Like I said I fully share everyones frustration with this - it happens to me everyday on my commute and it is one of the worst elements of driving on our motorways.

So inferring that I am somehow ignorant of the rules of the road from the simple use of a phrase is a bit of an extreme reaction. What I was ignorant of was the offence itself and how it was applied - thanks to markpb I now know it applies to all roads as that was not clear from the sites I looked at and tbh its quite clearly not enforced enough (only 153 times last year I think) and awareness of the offence is not high enough either, given driver behaviour on motorways here.

But I would say, in my opinion and taking into account the circumstances - that there was no traffic, he did not obstruct another vehicle or cause any danger to another motorist and yielded when approached from behind - imposing penalty points is quite harsh when a warning could have sufficed. Particularly when compared to some other instances of driving on our roads that I've encountered which could have resulted in serious accidents.

Others disagree with that and thats fine - everyone is entitled to their opinion and I wasn't looking to argue the rights or wrongs of it or sway anyone over to my point of view. Just felt it was a bit harsh is all.

NewApproach

He should be put off the road for 6 months.

corktina

I agree totally here. If people would obey the rule to keep to the left the roads would suddenly become less crowded and the perceived need for extra lanes would disappear.... its simply laziness and incompetance to not follw this rule, well done the gards! (I hope it gets to air if they have a TV crew with them, might have some impact on the eejits I see every day.

-Corkie-

This should be posted on the front page of every newspaper to let people this poor level of driving is no longer acceptable.

bazzachazza

He said NO to the crew using the footage.

But does that no mean his face will just be pixelated or are they not allowed show any of the footage.

JD1763

bazzachazza wrote: »

He said NO to the crew using the footage.

But does that no mean his face will just be pixelated or are they not allowed show any of the footage.

Not sure tbh, the crew filmed the whole thing and then at the end she asked him for permission to use it. But since it was a public place etc and they were travelling with the patrol car don't see whats stopping them from showing it if they wanted to. Not sure what channel it was either.

bazzachazza

RTE.

Chances of him being shown are very very slim. They are just covering their arse's just in case they don't get enough high-speed chases recorded.

djimi

JD1763 wrote: »

But I would say, in my opinion and taking into account the circumstances - that there was no traffic, he did not obstruct another vehicle or cause any danger to another motorist and yielded when approached from behind - imposing penalty points is quite harsh when a warning could have sufficed. Particularly when compared to some other instances of driving on our roads that I've encountered which could have resulted in serious accidents.

Others disagree with that and thats fine - everyone is entitled to their opinion and I wasn't looking to argue the rights or wrongs of it or sway anyone over to my point of view. Just felt it was a bit harsh is all.

The thing I think youre failing to grasp is that the rules of the road dont just apply when there are others around to inconvenience, they apply all the time.

It seems to me that the issue of correct motorway driving is one that is starting to become a bigger issue for people, as the way we drive motorways and dual carraigeways in this country is appalling quite frankly (again this afternoon I was stuck on the Naas road in the inside lane doing 50mph because there were cars in the middle and outside lanes doing 50mph with no traffic around them). I only hope that this is not an isolated incident, and the guards start to take a strong stance on this kind of behaviour. I fear they wont, as they dont with speeding, learners thinking they can drive whenever and wherever they feel like it etc, but I suppose its a start.

mickdw

There seems to be a widely held belief that if you are doing the speed limit, you need to be in the 'fast' lane & that the other lane is for sunday drivers etc. This is the only explaination I can come up with for people sitting in the outside lane when there is not a car near them.

-Corkie-

mickdw wrote: »

There seems to be a widely held belief that if you are doing the speed limit, you need to be in the 'fast' lane & that the other lane is for sunday drivers etc. This is the only explaination I can come up with for people sitting in the outside lane when there is not a car near them.

I was actually coming down the M8 the other day and caught a lady in a megane in the outside lane. She was doing less than 120. No way would she move over so I flashed her and she started braking.... She then moved over and when i passed her she started shaking her phone at me... When i went on she moved back out again....

bazzachazza

The only extra that should ever be put in a car

testicle

JD1763 wrote: »

And yet you fail to acknowledge the fact as I outlined them - that 1) he was not obstructing traffic or other motorists in anyway and 2) he yielded as soon as another car approached to overtake.

Irrelevent.

JD1763 wrote: »

Thanks markpb - but tbh the penalty points offence is not clear in that does it relate to motorways or to secondary roads where driving on the right hand side is quite clearly dangerous

It applies to all roads.

Colonel Sanders

Glad to hear the Guards are finally doing something about this. Fines & points are the only way to stop people doing this. I've often been in cars with people not driving in the correct lane. When you tell them you usually get a reply of "Don't tell me how to drive" or "I'll drive where ever I want". Enforcement is the only way to cop people on.

GTE

I have one issue.
You said your brother wasn't obstructing anyone when he was in the wrong lane. Didn't you say you had a car following you for a while? Under the letter of the law he would have had to undertake you to pass but that is also illegal so weren't you actually obstructing someone?

Anyway I read the thread and your questions have been answered pretty well. I just wanted to raise that point.

JD1763

bbk wrote: »

I have one issue.
You said your brother wasn't obstructing anyone when he was in the wrong lane. Didn't you say you had a car following you for a while? Under the letter of the law he would have had to undertake you to pass but that is also illegal so weren't you actually obstructing someone?

Anyway I read the thread and your questions have been answered pretty well. I just wanted to raise that point.

He was following at distance with matched speed, so no he wasn't obstructing him. Once he sped up and actually closed my brother yielded to him.

Minstrel27

ft04scrzxmgpuk wrote: »

OP - tell your brother not to accept the points and fight his case in court - good chance the judge would see it for what it is - lazy policing

Yes OP. Take legal advice from some randomer on the internet.

GTE

JD1763 wrote: »

He was following at distance with matched speed, so no he wasn't obstructing him. Once he sped up and actually closed my brother yielded to him.

That's where I will have to disagree.
Why would the person have to speed up and close the distance to show his intentions? That's not a situation that should be force upon someone. You could argue that the driver never wanted to overtake but you cant assume that.

A main point of following the law and driving in the left lane except when overtaking is so intentions are clearly shown. Once someone moves into the right hand lane they want to overtake you. Combined with the 2 second rule there is a lot of warning of that. Having someone in the right hand lane forces drivers behind to stay in a state of limbo if they stay close since they do not not know what the driver in front is going to do. If he or she is a bad enough driver to stay in the right hand lane then could you assume indicators would be used?

To my knowledge its not written into law that the car behind should then go into the right hand lane in an attempt to get the car in front into the correct lane and of course flashing the person is out of bounds, thats more policing the roads yourself.

Overall I think what I said is very fair and I think its extremely fair that your brother was caught for this. I can only hope the punishment is as fair. I haven't read that part in detail yet but for instance a driving ban of some months isn't right to me but a good chunk of points is definitely good.

bazzachazza

Its easy to say when its not your licence/money and time your playing with.

I also liked the defence of "Well he was approaching a toll booth so he had to be in the right lane"

Great advice except for the bit where the Garda car was following them at a distance for a while.

So define "approaching" Fencer ? As soon as you get in and drive your approaching !

bazzachazza

but a good chunk of points is definitely good.

Its a one penalty point offence two if you argue it in court.

JD1763

bbk wrote: »

That's where I will have to disagree.
Why would the person have to speed up and close the distance to show his intentions? That's not a situation that should be force upon someone. You could argue that the driver never wanted to overtake but you cant assume that.

A main point of following the law and driving in the left lane except when overtaking is so intentions are clearly shown. Once someone moves into the right hand lane they want to overtake you. Combined with the 2 second rule there is a lot of warning of that. Having someone in the right hand lane forces drivers behind to stay in a state of limbo if they stay close since they do not not know what the driver in front is going to do. If he or she is a bad enough driver to stay in the right hand lane then could you assume indicators would be used?

To my knowledge its not written into law that the car behind should then go into the right hand lane in an attempt to get the car in front into the correct lane and of course flashing the person is out of bounds, thats more policing the roads yourself.

Overall I think what I said is very fair and I think its extremely fair that your brother was caught for this. I can only hope the punishment is as fair. I haven't read that part in detail yet but for instance a driving ban of some months isn't right to me but a good chunk of points is definitely good.

I understand what you're saying and its a valid point, but in this case it was clear that the other car was shadowing him. When I say distance I dont mean 3-4 car lengths, it was a good distance back and was not gaining on him. As it gained on him he then yielded. Like I said not seeking to justify what he did but under the circumstances giving penalty points in my opinion was quite harsh. If he'd been obstructing faster moving traffic then I'd agree he deserved all he got. But at off peak and under the circumstance I've already descrbied, that wasnt the case and I think a warning could have sufficed. Like I said we all have different opinions on how this could have been treated.

He's not going to contest it as he has 2 points already and as he's required to drive as part of his job he doesnt want to jeopardise his employment. If he lost the appeal he'd get 3 points.

If he felt it was harsh bring it to court.

Be aware tho, if you lose the appeal you could see the fine and points double.

peasant

JD1763 wrote: »

What I was ignorant of was the offence itself and how it was applied

Oh, so you learned something ...

JD1763 wrote: »

But I would say, in my opinion and taking into account the circumstances -.

Or maybe you didn't :rolleyes:

JD1763 wrote: »

I understand what you're saying and its a valid point, but in this case it was clear that the other car was shadowing him.

You're supposed to drive on the left even if you have the motorway to yourself

bazzachazza

You're still not getting it, the rules are the rules 24/365 and irrespective of whether there is anyone around. You still have to stop at red lights, you still are not allowed speed, you still have to pull over to answer the phone if you don't have a hands free kit etc etc.

Be thankful its only 1 point.

JD1763

Yes I post a perfectly reasonable response and justify what I've said. Freely acknowledged that he was at fault but I still believe a warning was sufficient and that under other circumstances I'd agree the points were justified. But nice try at selective quoting and ignoring my other posts :rolleyes:.

Alright at this point I'm just going to leave it, the question has been answered and theres no point in anymore back and forth. Mods can lock it up if they like, thanks to all who contributed.

GTE

JD1763 wrote: »

I understand what you're saying and its a valid point, but in this case it was clear that the other car was shadowing him. When I say distance I dont mean 3-4 car lengths, it was a good distance back and was not gaining on him. As it gained on him he then yielded. Like I said not seeking to justify what he did but under the circumstances giving penalty points in my opinion was quite harsh. If he'd been obstructing faster moving traffic then I'd agree he deserved all he got. But at off peak and under the circumstance I've already descrbied, that wasnt the case and I think a warning could have sufficed. Like I said we all have different opinions on how this could have been treated.

He's not going to contest it as he has 2 points already and as he's required to drive as part of his job he doesnt want to jeopardise his employment. If he lost the appeal he'd get 3 points.

If it was allowed in that situation you were in then the line between when you could do it and cannot would end up getting so blurred that when its at its most dangerous it would be used as a defence. An out and out ban is better and the punishment is harsh if you do it by accident but if it was someones intention to do it even in no traffic then as I said there is a line in the drivers head of when that is acceptable or not.

Absurdum

Chances are he'll hear no more about it. He was only pulled for the benefit of the cameras.

bazzachazza

Absurdum wrote: »

Chances are he'll hear no more about it. He was only pulled for the benefit of the cameras.

Would it not be the exact opposite. As usually at the end of each episode they like to say blah blah blah got 1 point and a fine. Again I doubt this will make the TV.

ArphaRima

I'm delighted this happened. This annoys me just about every day I get into my car.

Hopefully it wasnt just bravado for the cameras but a Garda who actually does this regularly.

If this was my brother I would be throwing a copy of the Rules of the Road at him.

You were brave/naive to bring this issue onto the motors forum. However I dont agree that this thread should be locked just to minimalise your embarrassment, but that's a call to be made by the moderators..

dr.fuzzenstein

SARASON wrote: »

I was actually coming down the M8 the other day and caught a lady in a megane in the outside lane. She was doing less than 120. No way would she move over so I flashed her and she started braking.... She then moved over and when i passed her she started shaking her phone at me... When i went on she moved back out again....

Wow.
I bet if she was caught she'd fight it to the last and when she'd finally loose, she'd bitch and moan for the rest of her life how she was "singled out" and "treated unfairly" to anyone who'd listen to her.
I bet you she's in a government job.
OP, maybe the Gardai are slowly waking up to the fact that there's a vast number of motorists running riot on the roads of Ireland and they may have caught wind that the public isn't happy with the current situation.
That means they have to come down hard upon anyone doing dumb stuff and they don't care how people "normally" drive, if they see sh*t, they're gonna come down hard on it.
Arguably a stern warning might have sufficed, but if the Gard wasn't in the mood for that, there's little you can do, especially if the Gardai want to be seen to be "doing something" and as such they would have to fight their corner very hard.
Fighting this seems a fairly tough call and if you look up the letter of the law, it doesn't even look like a 50/50 chance of success.
Your brother could simply end up with a bigger fine and more points.
If this is a sign that the Gards will finally do more than just (Tax, Insurance, Grand, off to the deli), I'll be delighted, because in 10 years on the road I have witnessed some of the most appalling behaviour by other motorists and the generally accepted wisdom was nothing's going to be done about it.