Rules query

Daithio9

Firstly a bit of background info, player B is more experienced in matchplay, but neither of the two are well versed on the rules, both players are in their mid 30's and know eachother fairly well.
Ok so here's the scenario.
It's a club singles matchplay, the game is all square and the players are on the 5th green, player A has a 2foot putt for a 4 with a shot to win the hole, player B is already in for a 4 and not realising player A has a shot, he concedes the putt for what he thinks is a half, player A is surprised by this and asks "are you sure", player B then say's "yes you don't have a shot here do you?" to which player A says he has, so player B then says "I didn't realise you had a shot and wouldn't have given you the putt if I had known", player A then says "no problem I'll finish out", he duly misses the putt to win the hole and they end up halfing the hole.
Player B goes on to win the match on the 17th 2 and 1.
What's the ruling if any?.

thelongfellow

Daithio9 wrote: »

Firstly a bit of background info, player B is more experienced in matchplay, but neither of the two are well versed on the rules, both players are in their mid 30's and know eachother fairly well.
Ok so here's the scenario.
It's a club singles matchplay, the game is all square and the players are on the 5th green, player A has a 2foot putt for a 4 with a shot to win the hole, player B is already in for a 4 and not realising player A has a shot, he concedes the putt for what he thinks is a half, player A is surprised by this and asks "are you sure", player B then say's "yes you don't have a shot here do you?" to which player A says he has, so player B then says "I didn't realise you had a shot and wouldn't have given you the putt if I had known", player A then says "no problem I'll finish out", he duly misses the putt to win the hole and they end up halfing the hole.
Player B goes on to win the match on the 17th 2 and 1.
What's the ruling if any?.

No ruling. Hole was played to a finish-the half stands.

copacetic

thelongfellow wrote: »

No ruling. Hole was played to a finish-the half stands.

agreed, if A had just taken the gimmee then he wins the hole. He didn't, he putted and missed so only a half. How A could possibly look for a ruling having said 'no problem, I'll finish out' I'm not sure.

gripcasey

i think once giving cant be taken back should have won hole

irishtoffee

gripcasey wrote: »

i think once giving cant be taken back should have won hole

I would have thought the same,player B should have known where he was giving shots, once he conceded the hole is that not hole over? But then on the other hand player A should have just picked up his ball.

Dammo

Rule 101(a)(i) Player A is a knobhead

durkadurka

Player a is a gentleman.

Nice guys lose.

But he probably sleeps well at night.

copacetic

gripcasey wrote: »

i think once giving cant be taken back should have won hole

He of course could have taken the gimmee and won the hole. The key point is that he didn't and putted out. Can't change your mind afterward either way.

B displays poor sportsmanship and poor behaviour but thats life, some people are like that..

Fulton Crown

copacetic wrote: »

He of course could have taken the gimmee and won the hole. The key point is that he didn't and putted out. Can't change your mind afterward either way.

B displays poor sportsmanship and poor behaviour but thats life, some people are like that..

This is correct - if every I am conceeded in a match I pick up straight away !

PhilipMarlowe

Rule 2 says that a concession (of hole, next stroke or match) may not be either declined or withdrawn. So player A won the 5th hole.
But since they played on and the result has presumably been announced then I'd say the result of the match stands.

Daithio9

Licksy wrote: »

Rule 2 says that a concession (of hole, next stroke or match) may not be either declined or withdrawn. So player A won the 5th hole.
But since they played on and the result has presumably been announced then I'd say the result of the match stands.

Thanks for that Licksy and to the others for their contribution, that's my understanding of the rule as well, a concession can be given at any time and can not be rejected or withdrawn, I also understand that in matchplay whatever mistake is made on a particular hole stands once the first ball is teed off from the next tee box and that the result of the match stands as soon as the players walk off the final hole and no claim to the contrary is made by either player, but I wonder in this instance did the players involved unwittingly agree to waive the rules and what impact (if any) that may have on the result of the match?.

ozymandias10

Licksy wrote: »

Rule 2 says that a concession (of hole, next stroke or match) may not be either declined or withdrawn. So player A won the 5th hole.
But since they played on and the result has presumably been announced then I'd say the result of the match stands.

Licksy is correct...They both teed off on the next hole happy with a half...once they teed off the result of that hole stands.

Daithio9

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Licksy is correct...They both teed off on the next hole happy with a half...once they teed off the result of that hole stands.

Thanks for your input ozy, but we have resolved that question already and the question now is if the two players involved unwittingly agreed to waive the rules and if so, what affect (if any) that may have on the outcome of the match.

PhilipMarlowe

You couldn't say that they agreed to waive the rules because presumably they weren't aware of that rule anyway so they weren't agreeing to not comply.
Penalty for breaching the rule (withdrawing the concession the first breach?) would probably be loss of hole.
But since they later shook hands (presumably!) on the 17th green the match would be considered over in my book. You couldn't re-visit because it's not like there was a deliberate attempt to give wrong information... there was no claim made... etc.

Matchplay is a funny animal. If you discovered a breach in a strokeplay event well after a competition closed you'd go back and get disqualified after the event but matchplay is more like a fight.

e.g.
Decision 2 -3/1 Players Under Impression Match Is Over Later Realise It Was All Square
Q. In a match, A and B left the 18th green under the impression that A had won. They later realised that in fact the match was all square. The matter was referred to the Committee. What is the ruling?

A. Since there was no indication that wrong information had been given, the match stands as played, with A the winner.

FlutterinBantam

Daithio9 wrote: »

Firstly a bit of background info, player B is more experienced in matchplay, but neither of the two are well versed on the rules, both players are in their mid 30's and know eachother fairly well.
Ok so here's the scenario.
It's a club singles matchplay, the game is all square and the players are on the 5th green, player A has a 2foot putt for a 4 with a shot to win the hole, player B is already in for a 4 and not realising player A has a shot, he concedes the putt for what he thinks is a half, player A is surprised by this and asks "are you sure", player B then say's "yes you don't have a shot here do you?" to which player A says he has, so player B then says "I didn't realise you had a shot and wouldn't have given you the putt if I had known", player A then says "no problem I'll finish out", he duly misses the putt to win the hole and they end up halfing the hole.
Player B goes on to win the match on the 17th 2 and 1.
What's the ruling if any?.

Once that has happens the rest is academic imo.

Daithio9

Licksy wrote: »

You couldn't say that they agreed to waive the rules because presumably they weren't aware of that rule anyway so they weren't agreeing to not comply.

Yes I agree to constitute an agreement both parties would have to have been fully aware of the rule in question at the time and tbh I don't believe that both parties were fully aware.

Penalty for breaching the rule (withdrawing the concession the first breach?) would probably be loss of hole.

See below.

But since they later shook hands (presumably!) on the 17th green the match would be considered over in my book. You couldn't re-visit because it's not like there was a deliberate attempt to give wrong information... there was no claim made... etc.

Yes both players shook hands and have accepted the result as it was on the day.

Matchplay is a funny animal. If you discovered a breach in a strokeplay event well after a competition closed you'd go back and get disqualified after the event but matchplay is more like a fight.
e.g.
Decision 2 -3/1 Players Under Impression Match Is Over Later Realise It Was All Square
Q. In a match, A and B left the 18th green under the impression that A had won. They later realised that in fact the match was all square. The matter was referred to the Committee. What is the ruling?

A. Since there was no indication that wrong information had been given, the match stands as played, with A the winner.

I agree matchplay is a different beast altogether and is more a battle of wills and if you can pull a fast one then "fair play to you".
I think the only thing that could possibly have an impact on the result is if player B was aware of the rule regarding concession's and if player A was to find this out at a later stage, player A may have a case to bring to the committee if he was so inclined.

shawpower

Thought that instead of starting a new rules query thread, I'd re-use this one.

It's about gimme's in matchplay. I've been told two different opposite "rules" on gimme's recently, and wanted to clarify which was correct.

1. You offer a gimme to your opponent to win a hole. They turn down the gimme, and miss the putt. Hence they only half the hole.

2. You give your opponent a gimme to win a hole. They take the putt anyway and miss, but the hole was already conceded so the miss doesn't matter.

Which counts? Is a gimme you saying the hole is finished, so any further action is simply practice etc? Or is a gimme only an offer, and if refused then subsequent shots count?

My assumption is that once a concession is given for a putt/hole/match, that's the end of the matter and cannot be refused/withdrawn or overruled by a missed putt in the case of a gimme?

PhilipMarlowe

We had that on another thread recently.
A concession (of the next shot, the hole, the match) can't be either withdrawn or refused (rule 2-4)