who you know not what you know?

MonkeyBone

Hi All,

Recently got into an argument with my brother (who is a very pessimistic individual to say the least or a realist as he puts it...) over the supposed way things work in Ireland i.e. it is who you know not what you know that gets you a job in this country. Now I am a believer that a person's skills, experience and qualifications will get them a job but as I say my brother takes the pessimistic view.

I thought I would throw this topic out there and see what ye guys and ladies think?

I hope I won't annoy anyone but I just want to get the general consenus!

Slasher

This practice certainly exists when it comes to senior jobs in the Civil Service. There was an article in the newspaper a few weeks ago (I'll try to find a link) in which it was shown that out of all the senior CS posts advertised to the public, only a very small proportion went to people from outside the CS, in fact, if I remember correctly only one, and he had previosuly worked for the CS. So, those senior posts are only available to people who know the right people. That has always been the case.

Time was when jobs in the Garda were only available to people who had political connections, similarly with semi-state companies such as ESB, Bord na Mona, etc. Anyone who has parents or grandparents who lived throught the 40s and 50s will verify that. Entry point posts in the CS are by open competition now, but political representation still exists, but I do not know if it has a positive or negative influence on a person's job application.

There was another newspaper article a few weeks ago in which it was stated that summer jobs in the HSE were given this year to sons and daughters of senior HSE managers. The HSE huffed and puffed, but they did not deny it.

Here is yet another in which it is stated an internal audit found that certain people "in the know" were given jobs in the HSE without proper procedures being followed:
"Separately, it is understood the internal audit also maintained that there were breaches of official public service and HSE recruitment policy.

It maintained that relatives of personnel associated with the programme were directed to a recruitment agency, which then placed two people on temporary contracts with the Skills office.

Informed sources said the internal audit report also contended that a relative of one person associated with the programme was subsequently given a full-time job in the HSE without either an internal or external competition taking place."
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0618/1224272795011.html

This one speaks about political appointments to government agencies:
When the former taoiseach Bertie Ahern admitted openly that he had no compunction about appointing personal friends to State boards, no politician of any party criticised this practice, which is obviously deeply rooted in our political culture. The silence was deafening.

It is apparent that politicians of every hue wish to retain these top jobs in their gift because it helps them achieve popularity. Installing friends in top positions throughout the public sector also allows politicians to know what is going on in many different sectors of the economy. This was very important to the presidential style of Mr Haughey but it has now spread to all political parties. Public sector reform is simply not possible as long as this practice continues.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0301/1224265372827.html

Smcgie

I no for a fact that every person employed in my place of work knew someone beforehand.

Its very well known and even I had to go that route.

tenchi-fan

My uncle was pretty high up in the local social welfare office (think he was the top guy in there!)

He was so fed up of people getting into state jobs by "who they know" that when he was recruiting, he set up a panel for interviews that was made up of people from other towns. It meant that everyone was employed based on their merit rather than who they knew.

For private sector jobs, I find that managers like existing employees to recommend someone. It's more networking than nepotism in this case.

RedXIV

It pretty much is who you know. I got my job through someone and the same crowd seem to have a universal hiring policy of only taking recommendations from current staff

IRLConor

I'm on my 7th employer. The first, I got via TY work experience after blindly writing them a letter. The second was the company that bought the first (I had left in the interim to not have to work during 6th year). The third employer was again due to a blind application. The fourth, I was recommended by someone who I had worked with before who had worked with employer #4 at a previous company. Employer 5 was me and a few of my friends, so definitely "who you know". Job #6 I got via a recommendation from employer #4. Job #7, my current one, I applied for without personally knowing or having worked for my employers (unless you count modding ).

Who you know really helps though. At various stages in job #5, I was involved in hiring people for both our company and for our clients. For our company, we were much too small and too busy to go through a full hiring process so we went through the people that we knew who were good and available for work and gave them first dibs. When interviewing candidates for our clients, my eyes were opened to the more conventional process of hiring. I was astonished at the number of people who didn't even begin to meet the basic criteria who turned up for interview (and these were people who had passed a CV screen and somehow blagged their way through a phone interview! :eek:). Having seen that, I can fully understand why companies are so quick to hire people they know. At the very least, getting a recommendation from a current employee is a good first step. The cost of getting rid of a bad hire is often quite large. The cost of interviewing people is bad enough TBH.

I've never seen someone get a job due to knowing people and then not be up to the job. I've heard plenty of stories about it though.

Ardennes1944

im 18, a hard worker, always first to be at work and willing to learn. but i would not have gotten any of my 3 jobs to date if i hadnt known someone

Cuddlesworth

Gotten jobs because of people I know. That being said I was generally asked because of how good I was at it to begin with.

Papa_Bear

I saw a TV program a yr or two back where they were interviewing the president's daughter ( a graduate engineer ) who worked in ESB. Now say what you like but you can't convince me that she got the job because of what she knew rather than who her mother knew (or who she herself or her mother was).

Ah maybe I'm being a little harsh:rolleyes: Perhaps she got the job because of all this positive discrimination crap that the IEI through out for women engineers. Well positive discrimination didn't do anything for me(I have a disability) - remember that positive to disability logo that would appear on various ompany app. forms?

Raekwon

In this country it is definitely who you know and it always has been.

.DarDarBinks

Obviously if there was two people that were equally matched skill wise you would choose the person you know

ergonomics

I am on my 13th or 14th job and I can honestly say that I only got 2 of those jobs because of who I knew. I got my very first job when I was 15 and got it because of a recommendation from someone who knew me and knew that I was too young to get a "proper" job. I ended up working there for 4 years.

During college I had a job that I absolutely hated and was coming home every evening in tears. My Mum told me about an opening in the place where she worked because she felt sorry for me but I still had to apply and interview as normal. She did recommend me to the manager though. She wouldn't have even mentioned the job to me if she didn't think I was suited.

I don't agree with people getting jobs because of someone they know but I do think it's a good idea if someone who is working in the company gives a recommendation for an applicant. You can tell an interviewer all sorts of great things about your ability to work but having never seen you work they don't know if it's true or not. A referee can't give you a bad reference and it doesn't really matter what they say as they don't have to work with you anymore. If a friend who works with the company gives a great reference and you end up being a terrible worker it will reflect badly on them so they're more likely to give an honest reference. That's my opinion anyway!

Sugar Free

My friend works for the same company as me and gave me loads of help for both of the interviews I went through.

This was a distinct advantage though I'd like to think my confidence and preparation for the interviews would have gotten me the job anyway!

pog it

I think it's both. If you are talented, well qualified in an area where there are a lot of jobs, you will get on regardless of who you know.

But for things like archaeology, media, etc. it is definitely who you know that helps a lot of the time. An extreme example is how Pádraig Ó Céidigh's daughter is the editor of Foinse now. She bought the paper from her father.. that is cronyism at its worst. She's very capable and I want to stress that, but she hadn't a hope of getting that without her father.

dan_d

Depends on your field I think.

I had my most recent job due to work experience I had to do during college. I got the work experience cold, didn't know a soul in there. And I did not know reapply to them once I graduated - they rang me, after I had an interview with another company who rang my first company for a reference, and offered me a job. Furthermore I had 3 job offers after I graduated based on merit alone - I didn't know anyone. Same for all my summer jobs in school and college.

I'm unemployed now though, and I'm not sure how it'll work but I don't think it is based solely on who you know.

As for the president's daughter - I would imagine she got her job through the ESB grad programme. As she was a couple of year's ahead of me in college (I also did engineering), and I graduated 5 years ago, she's not exactly a recent graduate and companies were screaming for engineers at the time. Might have helped that she was a girl, but I doubt being the president's daughter did much - that's only a temporary condition.

ToxicPaddy

dan_d wrote: »

Depends on your field I think..

I have to agree with this one.. yup, a lot of people get into jobs on the backs of having contacts in a particular company/organisation but its getting more rare these days..

Every job I have been in for the last 12 years I have got in on my knowledge, skillset and experience.. never knew anyone in the company before, in some cases I never even heard of the company..

So I think the OP needs tell his bro that he needs to stop wasting his energy being so pessimistic and use it in a more useful way..

Tox

Nolanger

tenchi-fan wrote: »

My uncle was pretty high up in the local social welfare office (think he was the top guy in there!)

He was so fed up of people getting into state jobs by "who they know" that when he was recruiting, he set up a panel for interviews that was made up of people from other towns. It meant that everyone was employed based on their merit rather than who they knew.

Sounds like he was working in a branch office which is different to the ordinary dole office. The only people who can get jobs in a dole office from knowing the manager are the cleaners!

LimeFruitGum

My father got me my first job - I worked in his boss' office for two summers.
Actually, that company was pretty good in that regard, because they would usually take on about 5-6 summer kids whose parents already worked in the company. It meant there was enough holiday cover and we would already know the basic company structure from living in the area and having your parent work there.
From our side, we got our foot on the ladder and managed to get good work experience at a large, well-known company out of it.
My brother got his first summer job at my dad's work too, my sister got her first office job in our neighbour's company. I think that's just how rural Ireland rolls.

I moved to Dublin after the first summer work experience, so any job I've gotten here was purely based on my skillset and interview; I just wouldn't have known anyone in the target company.

quibbles

Looks like we are a Nepotistic Society.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nepotism

who'da thunk. :pac:

ABajaninCork

I'm beginning to come to the same conclusion.

I've applied for jobs where I'm definitely over-qualified, but didn't even get as far as an interview:eek:! I've been told there's nothing wrong with my CV or my experience; the interviews I've done seemed to go well, feedback was positive. Close - but no cigar! Dunno where I'm going wrong.

I'm not Irish, but my husband's family count two well-known politicians as family friends. I never mention the connection though as I (naively) believed that the best person got the job.:rolleyes:

Perhaps I should've mentioned the connection?:cool:

Eoin

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

I have to agree with this one.. yup, a lot of people get into jobs on the backs of having contacts in a particular company/organisation but its getting more rare these days..

I doubt it's getting rarer - it's a hell of a lot cheaper to hire someone through an employee referral program than through a recruitment agency. Not sure that would even be counted as nepotism anyway, I wouldn't see anything wrong with it at all.

munstergirl

Limerick regeneration hired family members, was on front of limerick leader about 6 months ago, an excuse was they did not have time to advertise.

I was asked at an interview in once, who my dad was?

Its not what you know its who you know.

InReality

I think there are a limited amount of jobs where in theory you can be very objective about in interviews - having programming exams for IT jobs for example.

But for most jobs "what you know" is a pretty vast grey area , experience built up over time.

So getting into the interview for most jobs is really crucial.
And who you know can get you in for that interview at least.
So I would say who you know is very very important.

shoegirl

dan_d wrote: »

Depends on your field I think.

+1

In my last career every single job I ever got bar one was on who I knew rather than merit. I used to do some freelance work also and about 90% of that was again down to who I knew.

The little that wasn't was partly being better than others working in the area in the same field and it being known by people that mattered. It took a few years to build a reputation.

In the end it got very depressing getting all my work on the basis of contacts rather than merit.

I think sometimes it helps but skill and competence is what helps you progress.

MonkeyBone

But couldn't "who you know" be argued as simply "good networking"?

dan_d

Hmm. But freelance work usually has to work on who you know, as you get jobs by word of mouth most of the time, until you build up a major reputation - and even then, it's still "oh I know somebody who does that".

Eoin

There's a massive difference between hiring someone through cronyism / nepotism, and hiring someone because their reputation is known to you.

It's probably a bit of a blurry line at times, but if you're not going to take people's recommendations on-board when hiring someone, it's a bit stupid.

tenchi-fan

My friend in my current job got a €500 bonus for recommending me, and I got a €500 bonus for recommending a friend of mine.

It's pretty cost effective given the price of using a recruitment agency.

michael999999

irish government--some of countrys biggest builders--galway tent--big contracts.

didntgotoplan

I've had 3 jobs and I got each of them through who I know. My first is my dad used to work there and said I was looking for some money for college. The second a friend from school was also working there, and my current one I knew the manager and she wanted someone she knew and trusted.

amen

If a private company wants to higher someone known to them who is not up to the job and wants to pay them their wages then let them. Not our problem.

If on the other hand a state body wants to higher only those people know to them and not based on merit then it is everyone's problem.

Even if there are interview boards they ways around the rules. I know of one interview board that awarded 30% of interview marks to experience of working in the civil service thus preventing anyone outside from getting the job.