Feminism - an Egalitarian term?

The Agogo

I have no problem with the idea of 'feminism' (no matter how many bandwagon-hoppers there are out there), but technically, should the correct term not be "Sex Equality".

For instance, take the term "racist". This term/ideology refers to a person who believes that their own race is superior to all others. Hence, feminist denotes that females are aiming to be ordinate over men (the correct use of the term).

I certainly hope this is not true, but still - why call it feminism? When it is clearly Gender Equality?

*edit* Apologies for using the word totalitarian. I was stuck for a word and I can't edit it now.

/* flips through thesaurus*/

MagicMarker

I'm going to sit this one out... :pac:

mikom

Feminism......... fine as a hobby girls, but it's not going to get you a husband.

Dudess

I agree OP, egalitarianism ftw. Originally, feminism was a great thing - it's been forgotten just how few rights women had (including by some women) but it's not as relevant now, in the west anyway.
I don't understand what you mean by "totalitarian" though...

Donkey Oaty

Speaking on behalf of rational people, attention feminists: we're on you're side, and have been for so long that you've fallen into obscurity.

feminism has been so hijacked that it would be difficult to define it under one cause as such. It means different things to different people . Some of it I agree with some of which i have huge problems with.

TheIrishGrover

Dudess wrote: »

I agree OP, egalitarianism ftw. Originally, feminism was a great thing - it's been forgotten just how few rights women had (including by some women) but it's not as relevant now, in the west anyway.
I don't understand what you mean by "totalitarian" though...

Good girl

Celly Smunt

don't mind what feminists do on the streets,they still get the good old slap when they get home

Dudess

Yeah it is a shame how it's been hijacked by man-haters - no help though when some use this as currency to justify misogyny...

thetonynator

Well if this turns out to be a women-versus-men argument, i don't think the gender ratios on after hours are fair. . . As dudess said before, when she started on boards, she was the only woman there. . . In fact i think most of the women on boards are actually men pretending otherwise. . . :pac:

Superbus

Every woman should try feminism at least once.











Really sorry.

The Agogo

Dudess wrote: »

I agree OP, egalitarianism ftw. Originally, feminism was a great thing - it's been forgotten just how few rights women had (including by some women) but it's not as relevant now, in the west anyway.
I don't understand what you mean by "totalitarian" though...

Yeah me either (re: totalitarian). I was stuck for a word? I'm always messing up thread titles. And they're so uneditable...

all woman here too! think there is enough of us here

Donkey Oaty

thetonynator wrote: »

Well if this turns out to be a women-versus-men argument, i don't think the gender ratios on after hours are fair. . . As dudess said before, when she started on boards, she was the only woman there. . . In fact i think most of the women on boards are actually men pretending otherwise. . . :pac:

Op wants equality.

Dudess wants equality.

Can't we all, like, just get along?

Ollchailin

I suppose it's easy for us women in the developed world to look at feminism as a slightly old-fashioned way of thinking. I'd agree that it's better to have equality of the sexes, as opposed to trying to out-do each other. But if I was a woman living in a country where I was oppressed by men, it'd be hard for me not to want to try & get one over on them.

Having said that, there is the whole thing that men still on average earn more than women etc.- but then pregnancy has a lot to do with that, & women still seem to have the upper hand when it comes to gaining rights of access to a child- so there's just one example of inequality that still exists in a modern country.

I think people have to accept though, that it's ok that men and women are different- it doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.

thetonynator

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Op wants equality.

Dudess wants equality.

Can't we all, like, just get along?

i was pointing out that there aren't many woman on boards.

WindSock

There are too many inequalities to choose to fight. Feminism focuses mainly on womens'. Any decent feminist would not stand in the way of anothers battle for equality, but compromises must be made. And vice versa.

Dudess

Ollchailin wrote: »

I suppose it's easy for us women in the developed world to look at feminism as a slightly old-fashioned way of thinking.

I hold the original tenets extremely dear but I don't like the way some feminists in the west look for examples of discrimination against women in a similar way to how some "800 years" nutters look for examples of "the Brits" repressing the Irish.

But if I was a woman living in a country where I was oppressed by men, it'd be hard for me not to want to try & get one over on them.

Yeah it's still highly relevant to e.g. Pakistan where a woman could be a convicted criminal for being raped...

I think people have to accept though, that it's ok that men and women are different- it doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.

Agreed.

Donkey Oaty

thetonynator wrote: »

i was pointing out that there aren't many woman on boards.

On re-reading, I can announce that that is exactly what thetonynator was doing.

As you were, everyone.

Capt'n Midnight

If women believed in equality then the retirement age for women would be 4 years higher than for men because that's how much longer they will live.

WindSock

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If women believed in equality then the retirement age for women would be 4 years higher than for men because that's how much longer they will live.

Ok.

and if men had periods they would never stop moaning

vicecreamsundae

to me, saying feminism should be re-named sex-equality is like saying christmas trees should be renamed holiday trees. it's picking at a word and trying to erase it's origin just to make it sound more inclusive and marketable, it's like white washing it or something. that's how i feel about it anyway. depending on the context, the term sex equality can be perfectly fine, but when you're talking about the entire movement as a whole, i think feminist is more appropriate.
but then, i'm not ashamed to be associated with a word just because people who know nothing about it make uninformed assumptions about it.

of course feminism IS about sex and gender equality, but let's not pretend it has nothing to do with women, when it was a movement started BY women, FOR women, to fight all the injustices AGAINST women.

when i was younger if people asked if i was a feminist i would roll my eyes and say no, i was an equalist -that's when i didn't know much about feminism either, but now i embrace the label.

tony1kenobi

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If women believed in equality then the retirement age for women would be 4 years higher than for men because that's how much longer they will live.

That's ageism.Different topic.

Ollchailin

Dudess wrote: »

I hold the original tenets extremely dear but I don't like the way some feminists in the west look for examples of discrimination against women in a similar way to how some "800 years" nutters look for examples of "the Brits" repressing the Irish.

God yeah, I agree completely- it actually does more harm than good for the image of women in general, and only ends up irritating men & rationally-thinking women rather than actually achieving anything. When feminists or even some from women's rights movements get on their soapbox sometimes, particularly when referring to women in the developed world, I just cringe. It's actually almost like they're telling women how to think or feel, which is actually a joke because surely that's the whole point of gender equality- that we don't need anyone to tell us how to think? That we've the ability to stand up for what we believe as individuals, regardless of our gender?

ok anyone want to give an overall definition of feminism as it stands now in 2010 ?

Cheap Thrills!

Ernest Uptight Handlebar wrote: »

ok anyone want to give an overall definition of feminism as it stands now in 2010 ?

Urrr....someone with too much time on her hands?

The Agogo

Fair point,

but e.g. Black Rights movement in America was based on equality. They didn't just label themselves "racists" in order to achieve equality.

Dudess

vicecreamsundae wrote: »

the term sex equality can be perfectly fine, but when you're talking about the entire movement as a whole, i think feminist is more appropriate.
but then, i'm not ashamed to be associated with a word just because people who know nothing about it make uninformed assumptions about it.

of course feminism IS about sex and gender equality, but let's not pretend it has nothing to do with women, when it was a movement started BY women, FOR women, to fight all the injustices AGAINST women.

when i was younger if people asked if i was a feminist i would roll my eyes and say no, i was an equalist -that's when i didn't know much about feminism either, but now i embrace the label.

Yeah, good points. Women hating feminism because "they're all a bunch of rug-munching man-hating dykes" really get on my... tits, appropriately enough. And when some genius uses "the feminists" as a prejorative... fuk off already.
That said though, I still do consider myself more an egalitarian than a feminist, despite embracing much of what feminism originally strove to achieve.

WindSock

The Agogo wrote: »

Fair point,

but e.g. Black Rights movement in America was based on equality. They didn't just label themselves "racists" in order to achieve equality.

Why would they? Racist is a negative term. Feminist isn't (or shouldn't be)

Mrmoe

Feminism is a dirty to use mainly because it has become corrupted by those who seek more than what they deserve. There are numerous instances worldwide where feminism is required. Generally in these countries they have problems with personal freedoms anyway regardless of gender. In this country the balance is not too bad but I think it has swung in favor of women these days. It will balance out eventually, all it needs is time.

WindSock

WindSock wrote: »

Why would they? Racist is a negative term. Feminist isn't (or shouldn't be)

yeah but it has been ... oh your not one of those feminists are you ? ( implying you are a man hating nit picking freak )

Dudess

Ollchailin wrote: »

God yeah, I agree completely- it actually does more harm than good for the image of women in general, and only ends up irritating men & rationally-thinking women rather than actually achieving anything. When feminists or even some from women's rights movements get on their soapbox sometimes, particularly when referring to women in the developed world, I just cringe. It's actually almost like they're telling women how to think or feel, which is actually a joke because surely that's the whole point of gender equality- that we don't need anyone to tell us how to think? That we've the ability to stand up for what we believe as individuals, regardless of our gender?

Or some feminists telling strippers they're being anti feminist... well no, not if they choose to be strippers.
I don't think support services for abuse (sexual and domestic) survivors should be gender specific either, but I suppose that's a complex issue...

vicecreamsundae

Ollchailin wrote: »

I suppose it's easy for us women in the developed world to look at feminism as a slightly old-fashioned way of thinking. I'd agree that it's better to have equality of the sexes, as opposed to trying to out-do each other. But if I was a woman living in a country where I was oppressed by men, it'd be hard for me not to want to try & get one over on them.

Having said that, there is the whole thing that men still on average earn more than women etc.- but then pregnancy has a lot to do with that, & women still seem to have the upper hand when it comes to gaining rights of access to a child- so there's just one example of inequality that still exists in a modern country.

I think people have to accept though, that it's ok that men and women are different- it doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.

i agree with you that it's easy for people in developed countries to act like feminism is irrelvant, when globally it's crazy just how much inequality persists, but i feel i must point out that feminism is about equality, not 'getting one over on the men'. that's an inaccurate stereotype.


also, a lot of people talk about how men and women are different, as if that has anything to do with them being equal. everyone is different. men and women have FAR much more in common than we don't. people exaggerate the difference but genetically we are something like 99.6% similar [and no, i don't have the reference offhand, but it was in a biology book, not a 'feminist' book]. we're not different species, and we all deserve equal rights.
sorry for the mini rant i've just heard a lot lately about men and women needing 'different rights' because they're different, as opposed to equal rights, i mean you could have said "i think people have to accept that it's ok that white people and black people are different -it doesn't have to be a bad thing". think about the implications that has.

WindSock

Ernest Uptight Handlebar wrote: »

yeah but it has been ... oh your not one of those feminists are you ? ( implying you are a man hating nit picking freak )

I tell them I am and to go buy me a fking drink!

Sorry

The Agogo wrote: »

For instance, take the term "racist". This term/ideology refers to a person who believes that their own race is superior to all others. Hence, feminist denotes that females are aiming to be ordinate over men (the correct use of the term).

Doesn't really though.

Wiktionary:

Suffix

-ist

1. Added to words to form nouns denoting:
   1. One who follows a principle or system of belief. Marxist , deist Note, these are related to -ism, e.g. Marxism, deism
   2. A member of a profession or one interested in something. botanist psychiatrist, one who studies psychiatry
   3. A person who uses something. violinist, one who plays a violin
   4. A person who holds biased views. sexist, racist

Dudess

Mrmoe wrote: »

Feminism is a dirty word to use mainly because it has become corrupted by those who seek more than what they deserve.

Agreed, but at the same time, it's irking when some ascribe that to all feminists.

In this country the balance is not too bad but I think it has swung in favor of women these days. It will balance out eventually, all it needs is time.

In relation to some stuff, agreed, but when the whinges of "Men are second class citizens nowadays" start... god give me strength. Straight from the same school of thought as "The only true victim of discrimination is the white, middle-class, western, heterosexual male". Bless.

The Agogo

Sorry wrote: »

Doesn't really though.

Well number 4 on that list seems to verify it.

The Agogo

The Agogo wrote: »

Well number 4 on that list seems to verify it.

lets get all bogged down in semantics now good idea

Sorry

The Agogo wrote: »

Well number 4 on that list seems to verify it.

No it doesn't. Number 1 explains the use of the -ist suffix with regard to the word feminist.

The Agogo

I've no problem with the principle of feminism (which is gender equality). But we are getting into semantics here. Feminism is just a redundant word is all I'm trying to say. Better to call it Gender Equality or egalitarianism (equality for all).

I'm actually sorry I brought this up at all. *goes to bed* I've got work in 5 hours.

tony1kenobi

Ernest Uptight Handlebar wrote: »

lets get all bogged down in semantics now good idea

I think rights is leftist.

My name is URL

How many self proclaimed and outspoken feminists give a crap about the injustices towards men in paternity suits, etc?

It works both ways.. it shouldn't be about one sex domineering the other, be it in a social context or a legal one.. There's militants in every aspect of life though.. those that feel a given right to claim the flag they should be trying to destroy.

Ollchailin

vicecreamsundae wrote: »

i mean you could have said "i think people have to accept that it's ok that white people and black people are different -it doesn't have to be a bad thing". think about the implications that has.

Ah yeah but I wouldn't say that, nor would most open-minded people (unless literally talking about skin colour only, in which case that's ok). Sure you could pick any two things and say they are different if that's the case. But I have absolutely no problem saying that men and women are different, and that it's ok that they are. Of course men and women should have equal basic human rights, but I also feel that there's often a "them versus us" outlook (from both sides), as opposed to achieving these rights because you are human as opposed to be either man or woman.

I think we're singing off the same hymn sheet really, but I like to embrace the fact that men and women are different, and sometimes allowances need to be made for this (without of course impinging on basic human rights).

Chuchoter

Feminism does not mean that women are superior to men, its about equality. I also don't think it has no place today. Women are still paid less, do not have ownership of their own bodies, the rape culture and we live in a culture where women are almost always objectified in the media. That is not to say men are do not have their own inequalities (unmarried fathers etc) but for the vast percentage of the time men don't have too much prejudice against them.

I think that feminism, as a concept, has been screwed over by several different groups to use for their own devices.

Sinfonia

crayolastereo wrote: »

Women...do not have ownership of their own bodies, the rape culture and we live in a culture where women are almost always objectified in the media.

Can you elaborate on these three points please?

Millicent

Dudess wrote: »

Or some feminists telling strippers they're being anti feminist... well no, not if they choose to be strippers.
I don't think support services for abuse (sexual and domestic) survivors should be gender specific either, but I suppose that's a complex issue...

Are you referring to Female Chauvinist Pigs? I found that book made a lot of good points, regarding sex and sexuality and highlighted how a lot of women were implicit in the subjugation of other women.

Chuchoter

Sinfonia wrote: »

Can you elaborate on these three points please?

No abortion. The rape culture is that as a woman I'm afraid to go out when its dark, my school ran self defense classes, there is a minuscule conviction rate for rapes and there is also a big group of people who think its a womans fault she got raped if she wore a low top. As for objectification, look at any perfume ad/music video/american apparel ad/so on and so forth. I mean when do you ever see an unattractive woman on TV? They are always dolled up to the nines, men can look however they want

Millicent

My name is URL wrote: »

How many self proclaimed and outspoken feminists give a crap about the injustices towards men in paternity suits, etc?

It works both ways.. it shouldn't be about one sex domineering the other, be it in a social scenario or a legal one. There's militants in every aspect of life though.. those that feel a given right to claim the flag they should be trying to destroy.

I do. I think it's shocking how men are treated in the legal system here especially regarding paternity and custody but we have had this debate on Boards before--feminists mobilised on a grand scale and there were legions of men who supported them. Men need to mobilise in the same way -en masse- and I will get out behind them and support them. (I know there are men who have before anyone points it out.)

ldxo15wus6fpgm

Can't we all just get along? :pac:

vicecreamsundae

Millicent wrote: »

I do. I think it's shocking how men are treated in the legal system here especially regarding paternity and custody but we have had this debate on Boards before--feminists mobilised on a grand scale and there were legions of men who supported them. Men need to mobilise in the same -way en masse- and I will get out behind them and support them. (I know there are men who have before anyone points it out.)

And I do too.

My Name is URL, when you say "how many feminists care about men's rights?" you're basically sticking to that stereotype that feminism is all about women, when it's about gender equality. as a feminist [and i speak for many feminists here], I care about both parents having more rights like paternal leave etc. equal rights benefit BOTH men and women -if men had more rights like paternal leave, [and not just legally had the right but it was socially accepted and supported] women wouldn't be so discriminated against in the workplace when it comes to promotions etc for example. it all ties together.