Hardware for Processed Beats

Diamondmaker

Hi

Im DJing about 10 years now and have 15 years in live bands also. Lately I have started a project involving mixing stripped down house beats with live bass and guitar perfomed over. I mix in tracks while my mate play bass and then I drop in some guitar in between mixes.

I would like to start creating my own beats. For various reason involving sitting in front of a computer 8 hrs a day and having problems because of it I want to avoid sopftware for this.

I am seeking some hardware that I can plug in to my spare mixer channels that will allow me create some beats, manipulate samples and create loops etc to create original beats of our own.

Im, to this point, a virgin to this sort of stuff and would appreciate being referred to some nice little hardware units that may help us out. My mate is also old school musician also. We also are mixing in live brass too and creating our own beats and having more control over them would open up more doors.

We are intending to a St Germain Jazzy House vibe is the simplest way to describe.


I found an AKAI XR20 Beat Production Centre on a random Google search is this or similar any use to me ?

Korg Kaoss Pad 3 The You Tube demo on this looks useful too.

cheers for any help.

DM

flyswatter

You might like the Maschine by Native Instruments. I have one and it's very intuitive to make beats with and is great fun also.

You can chop up drum loops to create beats or load whole drum kits and play your own and sample from internal and external sources. It's a hardware controller that integrates with its software very well.

Just my recommendation.

seannash

you want a drum machine

look em up there loads to choose from

Quiggers

akia's mpc range

Diamondmaker

flyswatter wrote: »

You might like the Maschine by Native Instruments. I have one and it's very intuitive to make beats with and is great fun also.

You can chop up drum loops to create beats or load whole drum kits and play your own and sample from internal and external sources. It's a hardware controller that integrates with its software very well.

Just my recommendation.

Can this be used without a PC ? Few you tube clips I have watched always connected to a PC.

I deifnitely want something more than a drum machine, im havig great fun currenlty with my new sampler option on my mixer.

Has any one here used the |Korg Kaos Pad 3 ? This looks nifty but Im not sure how it interfaces into my turntable set up.

flyswatter

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Can this be used without a PC ? Few you tube clips I have watched always connected to a PC.

No unfortunately it needs to be connected to the PC. It can work from the software without the controller but not on its own.

You may want to look for an MPC if you're looking for a standalone device.

splitrmx

Akai MPC 1000. Great sampler, 715 Euro from Thomann.de.

krd

Or a Roland SP - they're relatively cheap. It's a lot harder than using a PC - but it's not like being in front of computer.


You could probably get an sp 505 on E-bay for about €150.

Hardware samplers are a lot harder to use than a DAW. But they're more fun and more unpredictable than a DAW. Plus they look so much cooler than a Guy with a laptop who looks like he's cheating.



(You can cheat with the hardware samplers - by creating your samples a PC, then loading them on the sampler and playing them back - and still look like a cool scientist on stage)

Diamondmaker

splitrmx wrote: »

Akai MPC 1000. Great sampler, 715 Euro from Thomann.de.

Maschine is 669US
The Korg 599 AUD (~ e350 )

So the Akai is much more expensive, im looking between Mashine and the Korg for now, but if the Mashine cant be used alone its all about the Korg.

Also a lot of the Korg you tube clips I have seen people have commented that the Korg now kicks the MPCs ass and at half the price it would be rude not to take it seriously.

Still like to find someone who is actually using the Korg. Thanks for the advice today its been an exciting eye opener to see what is out there.

DM

Diamondmaker

krd wrote: »

Or a Roland SP - they're relatively cheap. It's a lot harder than using a PC - but it's not like being in front of computer.


You could probably get an sp 505 on E-bay for about €150.

Hardware samplers are a lot harder to use than a DAW. But they're more fun and more unpredictable than a DAW. Plus they look so much cooler than a Guy with a laptop who looks like he's cheating.



(You can cheat with the hardware samplers - by creating your samples a PC, then loading them on the sampler and playing them back - and still look like a cool scientist on stage)

The Roland 505 and SP 555 ( next gen from the 505 I assume ) looks worth while too. About the same price as the Korg so I reckon its narrowed between these 2 and I will spend some tome looking at both. CHeers All

splitrmx

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Maschine is 669US
The Korg 599 AUD (~ e350 )

So the Akai is much more expensive

Yeah, but the Akai is a fully stand alone sequencer and sampler with effects and filters built in. It can also sequence other instruments via midi. You could make entire tracks with it on its own and people regularly play live with an MPC instead of a computer.

The Kaoss pad is an external effects unit, it has a lot more effects than the MPC but you can't use it to sequence things or make tracks with just it on its own.

Maschine is an MPC style interface for a software program you'd have to run on a PC or laptop, so if you wanted to avoid software like you said in your original post, then you'd want to avoid this.

Quiggers

find a youtube video of the korg doing stuff thats similar to what you want to do, ask that person, they're the best qualified to advise you as they have a system that does what you want how you want. But if you can get past your laptop phobia, maschine will give you far more oppertunities and tools for the bucks.

krd

Diamondmaker wrote: »

The Roland 505 and SP 555 ( next gen from the 505 I assume ) looks worth while too. About the same price as the Korg so I reckon its narrowed between these 2 and I will spend some tome looking at both. CHeers All

The thing about these boxes; none of them is a next step up, or a smooth generation from the previous models. Each one is "designed" by mad Japanese scientists - who just put them out there and see what the round eyes do with them. Roland, were originally trying to build karoke machines. The 303 was a complete product failure for them. A must watch documentary on the 303 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2874082422033984340#

There's a very steep learning curve with the hardware. Things you can do very easily on the DAW can be very painful on the hardware. And something like a Roland manaul is a struggle in itself. Something like a sidechaining sound is very difficult to get without a physical side chain compressor. Nearly all music you hear nowadays uses at least a little side chaining, to give the basslines a rhytmic feel - My sampler Roland SP 808, has a Ducking effect on it, but I haven't learned how to use it. It also has a full vocoder - which works but was a bitch to learn how to use it.

If you're going to go with the sampler. And you're a DJ - you might have a real edge. When DJs really started making their own records in the 90s. Most just got a sampler and spun beats from their vinyl into the sampler and built tracks like that. Spinning Vinyl at the right speed is tricky unless you're used to playing vinyl. I can't do it - wish I could. I've seen it done.

It looks impressive as a preformance thing. A laptop does not.

Diamondmaker

krd wrote: »

If you're going to go with the sampler. And you're a DJ - you might have a real edge. When DJs really started making their own records in the 90s. Most just got a sampler and spun beats from their vinyl into the sampler and built tracks like that. Spinning Vinyl at the right speed is tricky unless you're used to playing vinyl. I can't do it - wish I could. I've seen it done.

It looks impressive as a preformance thing. A laptop does not.

I follow what you mean and thats exactly what I am aiming for, I will not feel I am perfmring unless I am doing things live. As I say I have been spinning a long time and originally come from a live music back ground. Taking my 4 - 16 beat samples from a vinly live, looping it and building on it is exactly what I am aiming for.

I am pretty good with "spining beats" as you say / Beat matching and currently using my mixer sampler module, I mix 3 sets of beats live, ( 1 loop grabbed from a track then build up on it with the 2 decks until I have 3 traskc playing under manual BPM control all together, it is very tricky and that is why I want the Midi BPM capability of a unit - so I can grab the samples and then forget about the BPM and play with tricks effects or even throw down some lead guitar work over the creation.

The only place a lap top will have in my set is if I hear a riff, or beat etc etc I want in a song that I dont have or cant get in time, on vinyl. Live gutar, Bass ( bass player also plays double bass ) and brass with Electronic beats = awesome. ie inspired by seeing early Groove Armada, LCD SS, St Germain and the likes.....

GOtta keep it real !

Diamondmaker

Quiggers wrote: »

find a youtube video of the korg doing stuff thats similar to what you want to do, ask that person, they're the best qualified to advise you as they have a system that does what you want how you want. But if you can get past your laptop phobia, maschine will give you far more oppertunities and tools for the bucks.

Nail on the head LT is a "phobia" to me, but its also 1 extra piece of equipment too much and I dont have a good LT and if I cn do thnghs another way, I dont want to buy a LT and a unit also. As I saya bove though using a LT is, for me, not performing and yes it does not translate well to appearing like a good show when you see it.

Even people who know nothing ( or even especially these peopole ) look at LT perfomances and go PSSShhh, I do any way !..

Quiggers

performers need to learn to look away from the screen, even somone rocking an mpc, if the dont look up and interact then everyone wont feel like they're trying to entertain them.

krd

Quiggers wrote: »

performers need to learn to look away from the screen, even somone rocking an mpc, if the dont look up and interact then everyone wont feel like they're trying to entertain them.

Then it's also down to your style of music. Some music just can not be preformed live. Playing a something you have in logic or Ableton, is not preforming live. You may as well be playing an MP3.

Liam Howlett never preformed live. He's behind the keyboard givin' it loads, but it's all sequenced stuff or straight from a CD.

There's Youtube and photos of Justice givin' it loads on hardware - where the equipment isn't even plugged in.

If you're preforming with hardware. You can only work within the limitations of what the hardware can do live. You do not have fifteen hands.

Live performances of electronic music are rare and getting rarer. There might be more in future. Because it's good to watch, there is an unpredictability to it. If someone is preforming live with a real 808 or with 303s you'll see something. Same with live sampling. See Beardy man. It's rough and unpredictable. If Scratch Perverts were two dicks with a laptop - who would go see them.

Deadmau5 insists his performance is purely live.

A guy with a lap top is not a performance (like : oh look he's moving his mouse and looking at the screen - maybe he's pencilling in some shakers - tweaking the bassline).

A guy who makes his music on laptops, can still buy himself one or two hardware samplers (they're cheap at the minute - but probably won't be for long once people figure out you need them to look good performing) - load the samplers with his work. And work out a performance. Twisting those knobs - with your hand, not with a mouse - is really fun. There's lots you just can't do - that you can easily do on a DAW. If you're a DJ and have a big Vinyl collection and decent sampler - you can do crazy mash ups live that no one else will ever be able to do or make ever again - including you. They sound very rough as final product - but they'd probably sound killer played live.

lazyatom

krd wrote: »

A guy with a lap top is not a performance (like : oh look he's moving his mouse and looking at the screen - maybe he's pencilling in some shakers - tweaking the bassline).

Ralf Hütter (via IM to band onstage) – check out ze bazoombas on ze girl in ze front row! yowza!

Florian Schneider – zat is nothink. check out zis link to 'play zem off ze keyboard cat' on youtube!

splitrmx

krd wrote: »

If someone is preforming live with a real 808 or with 303s you'll see something.

A guy with a lap top is not a performance

Have you ever used a real 808 or 303? I own both of them and you can actually do a lot more live with a laptop and a midi controller than you can with an 808 and a 303. With the 808 while it's running you can change between 16 pre-programmed patterns and slightly alter the percussion sounds (eg, bass kick tone, snare tone and snappiness, and all the volumes of the sounds).

You can't however programme new patterns on the fly with the 808, which you can with any software, or any new machine drum or sampler (and also ironically with the TR606). With the 808 if you want to programme a new pattern you have to stop it first and switch it to pattern write mode, which doesn't exactly make for a thrilling live show.

The same with the TB303, while it's running you can change between about 16 different patterns, you can also pitch the current pattern up to a maximum of one octave higher. You can also change the cutoff frequency, resonance, decay, accent and envelope with the pots on the front, but like the 808 you can't programme a new pattern while it's playing, you have to turn it off and set it to pattern write mode and then laboriously enter a new patterns pitch, then the time of each step, then the rests, accent, slides, all separately.

A laptop running Ableton Live offers much more options for live sound changing, manipulation, programming new beats and synth sounds as you're playing etc, so you can be much more live than with the 808 and 303. The 808 and 303 are great machines, and hearing and seeing them in a live context is a lot of fun, but saying that using them is more of a live performance than using a laptop is just plain wrong.

krd

lazyatom wrote: »

Ralf Hütter (via IM to band onstage) – check out ze bazoombas on ze girl in ze front row! yowza!

Florian Schneider – zat is nothink. check out zis link to 'play zem off ze keyboard cat' on youtube!

Yes - but they have Robots playing the lap tops.

krd

splitrmx wrote: »

Have you ever used a real 808 or 303? I own both of them and you can actually do a lot more live with a laptop and a midi controller than you can with an 808 and a 303. With the 808 while it's running you can change between 16 pre-programmed patterns and slightly alter the percussion sounds (eg, bass kick tone, snare tone and snappiness, and all the volumes of the sounds).

No, I've never had my hands on an 808 or 303. I do have a Roland MC 505 which has has a 808 kit on it - and 303 type thingy. Also other kits like the 909 - It's a groove box - it's got buttons to press and dials to turn.

I know you can do a lot more in Ableton - but it's not really the point. Working within limitations can force you to be more creative. Recently I've been playing around with just setting the 505 in a 1 bar pattern and programming the 909 kit on the fly. I'm really only learning with Ableton at the minute - and trying to find a way of combining the different things I can do - some things are even harder to do in Ableton - for me a least than I can do on the groove box.

You can't however programme new patterns on the fly with the 808, which you can with any software, or any new machine drum or sampler (and also ironically with the TR606). With the 808 if you want to programme a new pattern you have to stop it first and switch it to pattern write mode, which doesn't exactly make for a thrilling live show.

Have you though of just putting them in Write mode and programming on the fly. That's what I've seen done with 909 performances - start in write modem and fill the pattern. It's sounds tricky - but no more tricky than having to learn to play a piano live - probably a lot easier than a piano.


The same with the TB303, while it's running you can change between about 16 different patterns, you can also pitch the current pattern up to a maximum of one octave higher. You can also change the cutoff frequency, resonance, decay, accent and envelope with the pots on the front, but like the 808 you can't programme a new pattern while it's playing, you have to turn it off and set it to pattern write mode and then laboriously enter a new patterns pitch, then the time of each step, then the rests, accent, slides, all separately.

Yes, but you can "perform" with the patterns you have.

A laptop running Ableton Live offers much more options for live sound changing, manipulation, programming new beats and synth sounds as you're playing etc, so you can be much more live than with the 808 and 303. The 808 and 303 are great machines, and hearing and seeing them in a live context is a lot of fun, but saying that using them is more of a live performance than using a laptop is just plain wrong.

That's all true - There's all kinds of bells and whistles on Ableton - but it's also like saying electric guitars are automatically better than acoustic guitars because electric guitars can make more sounds.

Hardware is more of a show - even if everything you've loaded into your sample if from your Ableton setup.

Quiggers

when i run ableton live i use a midi controller to trigger it, real buttons n knobs, thinking of
adding an apc20 to my setup, how is that so different from a groovebox?

krd

Quiggers wrote: »

when i run ableton live i use a midi controller to trigger it, real buttons n knobs, thinking of
adding an apc20 to my setup, how is that so different from a groovebox?

Because ....The groovebox has flashing lights on it, and the name Roland - Roland is written in big writing across the bit you'd have turned to the audience.

It looks cooler. And 95.9% of all music is how cool it looks.

It's a reason also for years how you'd see bands on television preforming with an obligatory Nord Lead. Even if there were no Nord sounds in the music. (And I know Nord do stage pianos - I'm specifically talking about having Nord leads for show - even if all the sounds were done in a DAW on softh synths - the keyboard player needs something to make them look cool - or at least make it look like the band used something approaching instruments to create their sounds)

Hardware is cool - makes it look like you're a magician making magic - even when you're not.

Like Tiesto - he has his Decks and fffcks around with the knobs while he's preforming - he's not playing those tracks off vinyl and his mixer in not connected to anything - Some guy under the stage is cueing up his MP3s. If Tiesto just stood with his hands in his pockets what kind of show would that be?

It wouldn't be much of a show.

No one wants to see a dork with a laptop - they pay their money for a night out to get away from the dorks with laptops they see everyday at work.

Quiggers

sounds kinda like what bands used to say about dj's.

to the original question,
there are some great units out there,
akia's mpc range
roland mc_0_ range and dr sampler range
yamaha had their RS7000 and their tenori is currently popular but is not a beat machine
korg have the electribes and the kaoss range, plus their micosampler.

peavey's dj grabber loop sampler might be worth a look if you want to grab loops while djing. redsound used to make the same unit and you might find a bargain one on e-bay.

plumb them through some fx processors and you'll be well on your way to making processed beats, rocking the block as they say.

Diamondmaker

Im looking very keenly at an AKai MPC 500.

I get the impression I wont need a drum machine such as an Akai XR 20 if I have one of tese, any truth in this rumour ? SO the extra couple of bob and I get the sampler options.

These are costing AUD 880 at the minute what are they worth back in the mother land ?

Quiggers

the 500 is going for €539 and the 1000 for €855 at thomann,

the mpc 1000 is expandable but the 500 can run off batteries

Diamondmaker

Quiggers wrote: »

the 500 is going for €539 and the 1000 for €855 at thomann,

the mpc 1000 is expandable but the 500 can run off batteries

Cheers mate, you have followed this thread a bit and I thnk you fr your input.

FRom whant you have read of my posts do you think the 500 is a good option for my loose idea ?

I want to be making live beats or at least manipulating them and layering up congas, hi hat etc on top of a beat live. I want also to be free to play some guitar and do some cuts, break and scratches etc once I have this going.

I have looked at a few items on you tube etc and hve gone past the Korg Pad and away from a drum machine alone and this seems to be ticking the boxes for me now. Ill go have a demo of one closer to when the funds are ready should it still be rocking my block come then.

cheers
DM

Diageio_Man

heres some stuff that can be achived on the akai range,this mans a legend. have an mpc 1000 myself and after it wrecking my head for ages im finally getting the hang of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQGJTSLdrRc

synesthesia

Good topic

There's Youtube and photos of Justice givin' it loads on hardware - where the equipment isn't even plugged in.

Well, their modular is only a decoration and was never supposed to see something else, and when you see the picture with the MPD24 this has been clarified and when you see the full series of pictures, this was obviously an accident which was instantly repaired. If you listen to some of the live from Justice - they are not pressing play - there is more to it . I would agree with Tiesto - but can't say it's all the time - I saw one live DVD from him : not much DJying there. but i can't really juge over one performance ...

MPC are good, but Give a go with it first - some like it, some not. Personally i love live, and i had a MPD32 - that did the trick for me.
The tenori on is class, but kind of limited for beats.
The RS7000 is huge, but as some of the guys you need to program for quite a while before pressing play and start having fun - like most of the groove boxes ... MC-303, MC-808, RM1x ... while it is pretty instant to program with live ...
the 606 is indeed very flexible and allows you live editing - what a magic little box !!!