Piracy lets solve it

seannash

so anyone got any real suggestions on how to combat it.

i think mp3s are only a way to promote yourself for gigs.

the obvious solution is to return to vinyl but i dont think that'll happen(maybe in the likes of deep house but not in trance,hardstyle or other ****e genres(my opinion) )

if alot of the top producers got back on the vinyl wagon it might work and to be honest it might weed out some of the posers.

also interested to hear is there any way to password protect songs like a plug in in a daw,where if you remove the serial it wont play and as such people would have to crack a track.but i guess copying it or making a duplicate of the track might eliminate this.

anyway any thoughts.i know alot of people will be saying music should be free and i agree with this when it comes to mp3s to an extent but for the sake of discussion lets here some solutions.

i kinda think that if producers would group together to release a multi release vinyl it might help people seek it out.i know some clever so and so will simply rip it but it might be a small step in the right direction and it could build into something people look out for especially if the packaging is attractive and maybe incorporate an interesting graphic that borders on a painting/poster.
maybe the packaging could be a t shirt.i know its gimmicky but hell it might be a step in the right direction

cian1500ww

I don't think going to vinyl would be a great idea as a lot of beginner DJ's like myself couldn't afford turntables and a mixer. MP3's give me the chance to mix music cheaply by using software and a simple controller. Plus I wouldn't fancy lugging around a bunch of vinyls with me all the time when compared to an external drive or laptop

MikeHoncho

Piracy is not a new thing. It’s been around as long as there has been recorded music it’s just that with the internet it’s now magnified a billion times as it’s so easy to get your hands on whatever you want. The fact of the matter is that the way that technology is going in 10 years time there might not need to even be something as physical as MP3’s. People will be able to stream any song, film or tv show directly to a device either in their home or a portable device at a perfectly clear quality. I think the only answer lies in subscription based services. You pay a monthly or yearly fee which gives you access to a library of music and the service provider pays the artists a royalty fee.

In terms of Djing I’m not really sure what the solution is. You certainly can’t force people back to vinyl. The fact is a lot of bedroom DJ’s would not even bother if it wasn’t so simple and cheap to do with controllers and MP3’s. These people even though they are probably the biggest pirates also make up a big part of what is spent on both music and equipment and I'm not sure you would want to get rid of them.

seannash

cian1500ww wrote: »

I don't think going to vinyl would be a great idea as a lot of beginner DJ's like myself couldn't afford turntables and a mixer. MP3's give me the chance to mix music cheaply by using software and a simple controller. Plus I wouldn't fancy lugging around a bunch of vinyls with me all the time when compared to an external drive or laptop

seriously its not expensive for a setup these days.yes not as cheap as a controller but its hardly an unaccessable pasttime

i saved up for my first set of decks and got a loan out of the credit uniuon to upgrade.

as for the lugging around it shouldnt bother you if your not playing week in week out.

whether or not its a good idea its seems like the only fool proof way to stop piracy in this day and age and to be honest i think that labels will see this and decide to do vinyl releases again because the profit margin on mp3s are slowly becoming smaller

that is unless a way to control piracy comes along.

it personally doesnt bother me about music iracy because it doesnt affect me but im wondering is there a solution

was.deevey

Plus I wouldn't fancy lugging around a bunch of vinyls with me all the time when compared to an external drive or laptop

Completely true, even CDJ's look like an antiquated solution for lugging around.....(for mobile).

There's also limitations to what can be achieved on vinyl compared to digital formats e.g. harmonic mixing, looping, beatmashing etc .. Ok ok I know its possible just requires much more gear in already crowded Dj boxes. .

There's always ways to get around DRM, or even copying, just run and line out to record in .... Due to the fact that i've ripped vinyl to mp3, I guess i'm guilty of it ?

I think its more the effortlessness of the likes of Limewire / torrents that is the issue.

At least if ripping/copying is difficult your only stuck with posers with half a brain hehe.

seannash

Piracy is not a new thing. It’s been around as long as there has been recorded music it’s just that with the internet it’s now magnified a billion times as it’s so easy to get your hands on whatever you want. The fact of the matter is that the way that technology is going in 10 years time there might not need to even be something as physical as MP3’s. People will be able to stream any song, film or tv show directly to a device either in their home or a portable device at a perfectly clear quality. I think the only answer lies in subscription based services. You pay a monthly or yearly fee which gives you access to a library of music and the service provider pays the artists a royalty fee.

once a subscriber has paid there fee they can still upload it to wherever they want.much like peoiple buying off beatport and then uploading it

In terms of Djing I’m not really sure what the solution is. You certainly can’t force people back to vinyl. The fact is a lot of bedroom DJ’s would not even bother if it wasn’t so simple and cheap to do with controllers and MP3’s. These people even though they are probably the biggest pirates also make up a big part of what is spent on both music and equipment and I'm not sure you would want to get rid of them.

this is true but it was a thriving scene before when it was a vinyl only industry.
ill be perfectly honest i dont care about the bedroom guy who isnt willing to save to buy decks but thats just my stance.i think its the cheap setup aspect that actually breeds piracy too.

if you give them no option but to use vinyl they will either not want to dj enough to get equipment or they will save and get equiment.how many of the big named djs came from ghettos or poor backgrounds yet they still managed to acquire a set of decks.

i realise it wont happen as you cant stop technology but the music industry really has the power to stop this.they can either take a hit now in the hopes that itll increase vinyl sales in the future or they can continue to watch there profits slip

Android 666

I think a lot of the gimmicks you are suggesting are being used not in dance music maybe but in the record collector market and are generally used to charge exorbitant prices for their products which is never going to appeal to your average punter. Deep house probably appeals to people who might consider themselves more connoisseur-ish about their music - not trying to start a fight here as I really enjoy a lot of deep house - and so might be more willing to buy an overall package in terms of vinyl and sleeve design. With the pretty rapid growth of CDR mixers and laptop mixers leaving vinyl in the dust, the trusty 12 inch is becoming a more rarefied and slightly trendier pursuit like Lomo cameras. The limitations of vinyl becoming what is most celebrated about it. But sadly, its always going to have a relatively small captive market from now on.

Unfortunately, the genie is out of the bottle to a certain extent on this one. Any security measure you bring in will be quickly unlocked. I think though that people put more emotional investment into things they've actually bought rather than just downloaded (I know I do) and the record companies need to get that across. What's the use of free music if you don't develop any attachment to it.

seannash

was.deevey wrote: »

There's also limitations to what can be achieved on vinyl compared to digital formats e.g. harmonic mixing, looping, beatmashing etc .. Ok ok I know its possible just requires much more gear in already crowded Dj boxes. .

thats a good point but i honestly think that the overcomplicated dj set has had its day.

90% of sets these days could be replicated on turntables.

i know im coming across as a hater but im really only trying to lay devils advocate so as we can maybe try and think of a way to combat it

seannash

I think a lot of the gimmicks you are suggesting are being used not in dance music maybe but in the record collector market and are generally used to charge exorbitant prices for their products

yep your right but i think that if the record companies go back to what was once acceptable(10quid a track) and keep the gimmicks it might help.
i dare say a record sleeve is on ar with a printed tshirt to make

Deep house probably appeals to people who might consider themselves more connoisseur-ish about their music - not trying to start a fight here as I really enjoy a lot of deep house - and so might be more willing to buy an overall package in terms of vinyl and sleeve design. With the pretty rapid growth of CDR mixers and laptop mixers leaving vinyl in the dust, the trusty 12 inch is becoming a more rarefied and slightly trendier pursuit like Lomo cameras. The limitations of vinyl becoming what is most celebrated about it. But sadly, its always going to have a relatively small captive market from now on.

Unfortunately, the genie is out of the bottle to a certain extent on this one. Any security measure you bring in will be quickly unlocked. I think though that people put more emotional investment into things they've actually bought rather than just downloaded (I know I do) and the record companies need to get that across. What's the use of free music if you don't develop any attachment to it.

[/QUOTE]
yep pretty valid points and the security methods all seem to be directed at mp3s,which is why a format change may be the only solution

MikeHoncho

seannash wrote: »

once a subscriber has paid there fee they can still upload it to wherever they want.much like peoiple buying off beatport and then uploading it



this is true but it was a thriving scene before when it was a vinyl only industry.
ill be perfectly honest i dont care about the bedroom guy who isnt willing to save to buy decks but thats just my stance.i think its the cheap setup aspect that actually breeds piracy too.

if you give them no option but to use vinyl they will either not want to dj enough to get equipment or they will save and get equiment.how many of the big named djs came from ghettos or poor backgrounds yet they still managed to acquire a set of decks.

i realise it wont happen as you cant stop technology but the music industry really has the power to stop this.they can either take a hit now in the hopes that itll increase vinyl sales in the future or they can continue to watch there profits slip

People will always have the option to use the new technology by virtue of the fact that they exist. I will give you an example. Burial and Four Tet released a limited run vinyl only 12 inch last year called "Moth/Wolfcub". Despite the fact that it was only released on vinyl and in a limited run I could name 5 people who I know who don't have a turntable but have this on their Ipod.

Its just not a viable solution. Look to the future instead. With subscription based streaming services there is no physical product to be copied as you never own the file in the first place and no one ever needs to. You can access all the music you want whenever you want as soon as it is available.

seannash

MikeHoncho wrote: »

People will always have the option to use the new technology by virtue of the fact that they exist. I will give you an example. Burial and Four Tet released a limited run vinyl only 12 inch last year called "Moth/Wolfcub". Despite the fact that it was only released on vinyl and in a limited run I could name 5 people who I know who don't have a turntable but have this on their Ipod.

Its just not a viable solution. Look to the future instead. With subscription based streaming services there is no physical product to be copied as you never own the file in the first place and no one ever needs to. You can access all the music you want whenever you want as soon as it is available.

no i definitely know that vinyl could still be ripped but itll deter people who actually have to lay out the initial 10quid to acquire the vinyl and also have a turntable,soundcard,relative software to upload.
it wont squash it but it will decrease it.

itll also maybe stimulate more jobs than m3s can through sales,pressings etc but thats a whole different argument.

is it safe to say that iracy will harm the club scene because not many will be able to make a living from it.i know the gigs is the bigger payer but will they also suffer



i still say the subscription will end the same way.people already use a programmes to grab streams

the solution is a format that is harder to copy than simply a few clicks of a mouse and so far the only one available is vinyl.

just also to add,i imagine the limited run(burial/four tet) was all snapped up so they essentially achieved there sales goal.small run,small profit no doubt but id say more profitable than if they had released it strictly on mp3

Android 666

MikeHoncho wrote: »

Its just not a viable solution. Look to the future instead. With subscription based streaming services there is no physical product to be copied as you never own the file in the first place and no one ever needs to. You can access all the music you want whenever you want as soon as it is available.

The problem with subscription service is that the play the artist in probably an even worse position than they would be subjected to at the moment. Consider the fact that Lady Gaga received only €167 for ONE MILLION plays of pokerface on Spotify.

cian1500ww

seannash wrote: »

seriously its not expensive for a setup these days.yes not as cheap as a controller but its hardly an unaccessable pasttime

i saved up for my first set of decks and got a loan out of the credit uniuon to upgrade.

as for the lugging around it shouldnt bother you if your not playing week in week out.

whether or not its a good idea its seems like the only fool proof way to stop piracy in this day and age and to be honest i think that labels will see this and decide to do vinyl releases again because the profit margin on mp3s are slowly becoming smaller

that is unless a way to control piracy comes along.

it personally doesnt bother me about music iracy because it doesnt affect me but im wondering is there a solution

Vinyls just aren't a practial solution anymore. How would I listen to some tracks while I'm out walking or driving in the car ??
I'm sure a lot of the best dj's at the moment have committed piracy in the past. I've bought music and pirated music and to be honest, unless the day comes when I'd get paid for dj'ing :rolleyes:, I'd be inclined to buy even less music.

seannash

cian1500ww wrote: »

Vinyls just aren't a practial solution anymore. How would I listen to some tracks while I'm out walking or driving in the car ??
I'm sure a lot of the best dj's at the moment have committed piracy in the past. I've bought music and pirated music and to be honest, unless the day comes when I'd get paid for dj'ing :rolleyes:, I'd be inclined to buy even less music.

im talking about the dj industry but yes a good point.

im far from a model citizen and i definitely have pirsated and will contuinue to do so but i honestly dont htink that the level of piracy going on is going to end well for music.

im not looking for a solution for all music but just dance music and specifically people who dj.

as for the listening in the car comment im not sure,record a mix or something:D
(i realise this isnt a solution)

cian1500ww

seannash wrote: »

im talking about the dj industry but yes a good point.

im far from a model citizen and i definitely have pirsated and will contuinue to do so but i honestly dont htink that the level of piracy going on is going to end well for music.

im not looking for a solution for all music but just dance music and specifically people who dj.

as for the listening in the car comment im not sure,record a mix or something:D
(i realise this isnt a solution)

I highly doubt we'll see a solution soon, possibly the best way to do it is to eliminate the methods of pirating MP3's. Eircom have taken a step by preventing people from accessing thepiratebay and they'll also cut off anyone caught downloading illegally, it's only a matter of time before all ISP's will be forced to take these measures. Of course, there is ways around this but it's bound to significantly reduce the amount of piracy.

MikeHoncho

Android 666 wrote: »

The problem with subscription service is that the play the artist in probably an even worse position than they would be subjected to at the moment. Consider the fact that Lady Gaga received only €167 for ONE MILLION plays of pokerface on Spotify.

I hadn't heard that. Certainly puts it into perspective a bit. I would argue that the technology and availability of those types of services is not quite there yet. You could be talking about billions of plays when it is.

Executive Steve

You can't fix Piracy.

All you can do is cultivate a relationship with your customers where they like you enough to feel too guilty to steal from you.

romarr

I'm in the online streaming camp too ... realise the ins and outs of this model have not been sorted yet in terms of artists making money and I dont have any ground breaking ideas on that front, which is the real nub of the issue.

Generally think this as it seems to be the way the (digital ?) world is going - cloud computing and so forth...

as an example ... been to a few gaf gatherings in the past while where the "hosts" streamed a mix from peoples soundclouds, and it worked really well ! so when web speeds get better and services like SC improve the quality i think streaming will take off like nobodys business. how to make a living out of it, now thats another question

re a new uncrackable format ... its just never gonna happen, someone somewhere will figure it out

I do see the point made about vinyl (more effort to rip and distribute etc), but dont think the masses are gonna get on board...

Diego Smartly

Lads I have to say I really think yous are talking aload of nonsense.

To say the solution is just switching to vinyl or a certain way of buying the music is wrong without a doubt. As Mike said piracy has been around since music was recorded; so one way or another the music is gonna be stolen. If all the record labels were to crack down on piracy and implement all sorts of protection on formats and laws; buying and listening to music would become tedious, horrible and ****e. Cause technically ripping a CD onto a Ipod is illegal y'know, even giving it a lend to a mate, or even watching an unlicenced track on youtube.

Plus, Sean, to say you just want a solution for dance music is silly aswell. To think people will freely download all sorts of tv shows, films, books, software, and music.... but not dance music doesn't make sense really.

I know your a producer Sean, and I think that if your relying on music as a profession all you can do is keep doing what your doing and if people think your releasing a quality product then you will be able to make a few quid, maybe not on releases alone but on things like DJing and live gigs and stuff like that.

ArmCandyBaby

Here's a good image of the state of online income at the moment...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65545385&postcount=1

I too think piracy is here to stay and believe the model of productions promoting gigs makes much more sense, the way it was originally intended ~60 years ago. Unless a subscription service becomes significantly more convenient than torrents etc. nothings really ever going to change.

thirtythirty

LoL,I don't even know why you're all waffling about vinyls! It doesn't even come into consideration in my mind!

We need to look at this pragmatically. The way i see it, there are essentially 3 contributing factors to piracy:

1. The hardware providers, and the digital seeders, of the music that the average joe downloads illegally for free
2. The business model for actually selling the music.
3. The cultural mindset of people downloading


I don't have the answers to how we solve piracy, but I can sure as hell shed some light on the approach that needs to be taken!

1. This would actually surprisingly easy to solve, or at the very least reduce the problem of by 70-80%. I don't know if any of you watch tv and films online, but online programming has absolutely boomed in the last two years. In particular, Hulu has become the model for delivering that content. Up until the creation of Hulu, TV stations (like music labels) had been chasing pirate sites that streamed tv programmes like tv shack etc. The US government then recently siezed those pirate sites' assets, and it's a federal offence to illegally stream tv stuff.
The important point here is that the pirate sites were only shutdown once A) the tv networks relealised there was a MASSIVE market for tv streaming, and a superior service to the illegal ones was offered.
There is also very little incentive for illegal ones to start up again now because of the possible charges it carries, and also because users prefer the legit channel of streaming now because it's better than what they can offer. These sequence of events would be extremely easy to replicate in the music world.
I suppose you could even view the "big 4 labels" as the tv network equivalents that could put this in motion..maybe they should buy up pandora, grooveshark, and spotify!

2. This is the hardest one to solve. Why do people download music for free illegally? It's not just because they can, it's because there was no alternative to a bad model i.e. It wasn't a case of the service being provided, and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. It was a case of the service being born out of necessity, and everyone using it because the current service does not work.
Currently the biggest online music stores charge a price per track or album. In essence it's the same model as when it was in the store, albeit cheaper - but ONLY because they couldn't get away with justifying an equal price due to lower costs of getting the track/album to the customer. And I know new models are being experimented with such as subscriptions and bulk buys, they are not being implemented on a large enough scale, or being daring enough.
If I was to come up with a model now, I think it would be along the lines of a scaling subscription according to the service. For example you can pay €10/month and download 10 artists/albums and 10 singles each month. €30 gets you 40 albums, €50 gets you 70 albums etc. I havent worked out the maths , but at the very least; artists are getting a sizeable amount per album compared to the likes of spotify's royalties, and users are getting value for their money, which A) might seem like an awesome deal if illegal music is difficult to get due to my thoughts above, and might encourage them to buy more..which brings me onto my next point.

3. If you ask most people why they download music illegally, they'll say something along the lines of "well i don't like artist/album enough to have bought it in a shop in the first place, so it makes no difference that im getting it for free cuz they're not losing out on sales. If anything i'm promoting them, and might actually go to their gigs".
The point here is that there is an intrinsic value attached to the song or track. Now if you take my pricing model idea above and think about this cultural mindset, you might think "well you can still but an intrinsic value on the albums you're buying". Well firstly, yes, you're right - but it's WAY better value! But secondly, I actually think the best model would be what i've suggested above, but masked with micropayment points. i.e. €10/month gets you 3000 points, which you can spend on albums and tracks at your leisure - this masks actual price to the consumer, and allows better pricing of albums etc. (120 points for album X, 50 points for album Y).
If this was the case, you might be able to get a cultural mindset shift so that people finally view the purchasing of music as a high-value service enabling you to gather tunes, rather than a rip-off barrier to owning the music. Eventually, the subscription would become a necessity payment, just like you're broadband.

Tadaa! Well, I can dream :pac:

MikeHoncho

Congratulations spottyelephant you have invented E - Music

thirtythirty

Ah goddammit! Oh well, now if only i had some sort plastic replacement of real money that fits in my wallet to buy the music from the comfort of my home with....



To be fair though, they haven't done a lot to drive the cultural change and the subscription service is a very basic model that I came up with while writing a single post! And on top of that, sites can play with models all they want, but until the big 4 fully embrace the new models which are short-term less commercially viable than the pay-per-item model, then the crackdown on illegal sites can never begin.

seannash

Diego Smartly wrote: »

I know your a producer Sean, and I think that if your relying on music as a profession all you can do is keep doing what your doing and if people think your releasing a quality product then you will be able to make a few quid, maybe not on releases alone but on things like DJing and live gigs and stuff like that.

no im not relying thank god and nor will i ever be to be honest because i dont believe i have the talent to succeed in it but anyway.


look im not deluded i know vinyl wont be brought back but if we talk about ways to prevent piracy or hinder it it seems to be the only solution that would work

its not going to happen but if it was(hypotethical) it would definitely help curb it alot more then the current formats.

spotty elephant your credit system wont work either because people will download the tracks with there credits and then upload it to the internet for download .replace credits for money in your idea is in existence and its basically what people do now.

so seeing as people feel that theres no stopping it how will it affect producers or gigs

seannash

Diego Smartly wrote: »

Plus, Sean, to say you just want a solution for dance music is silly aswell. To think people will freely download all sorts of tv shows, films, books, software, and music.... but not dance music doesn't make sense really.

i know we can seperate it but lets stick to what we know and what will affect us as djs.

Jev/N

ArmCandyBaby wrote: »

Here's a good image of the state of online income at the moment...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65545385&postcount=1

I too think piracy is here to stay and believe the model of productions promoting gigs makes much more sense, the way it was originally intended ~60 years ago. Unless a subscription service becomes significantly more convenient than torrents etc. nothings really ever going to change.

Great point. Piracy, be it a good thing or a terrible one, has jolted things back to the way they were: making money from performance, rather than sitting on your ass and waiting for the cash to roll in on the back of overpriced and filler-laden albums.

I don't want to seem over-zealous about the whole thing, but you've gotta take the good with the bad. Many, many more local producers are getting their stuff out their due to this technology, and many on the back of free promotion and releasing.

Incidentally, this is broadly the topic of my thesis that I'm currently finishing, which I'll be glad to see the end of.

jonnny68

You'd have a better chance of Ian Paisley converting to a Catholic than you would of stopping file sharing, if anything it's getting worse and it's a lost cause,forget about it.