Need some input - diesel engine into a Jaguar Series 2

gn3dr

OK, I don't know if I should ask this here or not for fear of getting flamed, but it is a classic car. I posted on here recently about looking for a Series 2 or series 3 Jag to put a diesel engine into for daily driving duties.

Well I've found a '79 Series 2 in a nice seventies brown colour so part 1 of the project is on the way.

Now I'm looking for input on what diesel engine you folks would recommend - I have some ideas myself - my initial choices are

1) The 2.5 or 3.0 TDS straight 6 BMW's (although I think the 3.0 might be a bit more complicated on the electronics front - not a huge problem for me but I don't want this to turn into a long term project due to having to research too much on elusive wiring diagrams etc..)

2) Second engine choice is something from the Mercedes stable. I really know nothing about Merc's but web searching has turned up promising info on the reputation of the OM606 range of engines (in turbo format)

Any inputs on the above choices? (please don't tell me I shouldn't be putting a diesel in a Jag - I already know that :rolleyes:- at least I'm putting it back on the road instead of it rotting away)

There are a few guidelines I want to stick to - it must be relatively modern - not interested in heavy tank like engines from Nissan Patrols etc. I'd like as much refinement as possible.
It needs to be pretty reasonable to buy - e.g I've seen complete BMW 525TDS' on donedeal recently for less than €500 and Merc E300's for not much more

I also still haven't decided whether to keep the car automatic or convert to manual but I guess I'll be infulenced a bit by what engine / gearbox donors pop up. I'm generally not a auto fan but in something like a Jag with a big lazy torquey engine it could be OK.


Any (constructive) inputs?

quattro777

Buy this, job done

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/1409933

gn3dr

quattro777 wrote: »

Buy this, job done

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/1409933

Yeah I saw that one - same colour as my new car:D

I spoke to the guy and he said that it does about 23-25 to the gallon - a nice petrol AJ6 Jag engine would do that I'd say - and it would practically bolt straight in - so I don't see the point.
Those engines don't have a great rep anyway.

junkyarddog

The 6 cylinder 2.8 Nissan diesel engine was a popular conversion back in the heyday of the diesel conversion era,finding one now may be a problem though.
It was a fairly easy and decent conversion though,the engine really looked at home in the jags engine-bay.

68deville

i remember years ago i guy instaled a volvo 2.8td i think?in a range rover
out of a 760? i cant say how complicated it was but it worked!

hi5

The Opel Omega also has the BMW diesel and can be got cheap,the Ford Transit and Scorpio also diesel RWD.
Get a complete car as its easier to transfer everything over.

sean53

i know a chap who has a 2.8 straight 6 nissian diesel mannual out of a cedric.can be started on the ground ...

gn3dr

sean53 wrote: »

i know a chap who has a 2.8 straight 6 nissian diesel mannual out of a cedric.can be started on the ground ...

Is that a non turbo - I think they were? What year is it from?

mecanoman

Good luck with the conversion, once drove a 1986 320 that had

a Nissan Bluebird engine in it

Seweryn

gn3dr wrote: »

Well I've found a '79 Series 2 in a nice seventies brown colour so part 1 of the project is on the way.

Now I'm looking for input on what diesel engine you folks would recommend - I have some ideas myself - my initial choices...
Any (constructive) inputs?

Hi Ger,

I would not go for the BMW option, as the TDS engine would be the worst choice in my opinion. They have serious reliability issues (fuel supply pump, injection pump problems, turbo, etc. - you can search the net for your own info).
The Mercedes engine is fine, reliable, no electronics, etc. However, it would be almost impossible to find one with manual gearbox. The reason is that the 124-series came to UK with optional automatic transmission at no extra cost. All W124s e300 I have seen in this country were equipped with the automatic box.
I can't advise about other choices... Well you can find a good OM603 Mercedes Diesel. They are as good as OM606 with slightly less power (12 Valve only), very same fuel economy, same reliability, etc.

Good Luck.

galwaytt

...there's a guy in Athenry who's been converting them for years - there's nearly always 2 or 3 of them around his garage.

gn3dr

galwaytt wrote: »

...there's a guy in Athenry who's been converting them for years - there's nearly always 2 or 3 of them around his garage.

Any idea of his name?

The Jag arrived during the week. I had bought it on the strength of a few photos over the web so I took a chance.

Got it collected and dropped to my door by Flynn recovery - bought on Sunday - delivered on Thursday - great turnaround. Was a bit anxious coming home from work on Thursday to see what awaited me but I was absolutely delighted to see that it was pretty much mint. Could not believe how clean and original the sills, trailing arm mounts, floor, boot floor, etc were. Only spots of rust are a small bit around the headlights and at the inside lower corner of one door. Well happy with it. The seller had told me a previous owner had it rust proofed when nearly new, and while i took that with a pinch of salt at the time, it turned out to be true and the rust proofing was very effective.
It's a V12 and I do feel a bit guilty about converting it but at least I am putting it back on the road rather than it just sitting idel somewhere. (I do have a Daimler Double six coupe project as well, so my need for a V12 is satisfied by that:rolleyes:)

In my search for an engine I have also come across a '99 E300 turbodiesel for small money (it has a problem in that it won't start). I have provisionally bought this for the donor engine and box - it's an auto but I think I'll try it out for now and convert later if I don't like it. Auto probably suits teh Jag more anyway. I hope I can sort out teh non-starting problem - I'm making an assumption (hopefully not too foolish) that the problem is immobiliser or fuel delivery, or shut off solenoid related rather than something bigger)

Seweryn - I was hoping you would have seen this thread because I was interested in your opinion of OM606's given that you seem to know a lot about Mercs. (I had previosuly got input from you on another thread in Motors about choosing between a 318tds and a 190D) so I figured I knew your opinion of the 2.5 tds already.;) Thanks for your info on the OM603 - being power hungry I think I will go for the M606 but it is good to knwo the 603 is as good if I need to fall back on that.

kasper

the very best of luck with it , would love to see some pics happy motoring

Seweryn

gn3dr wrote: »

In my search for an engine I have also come across a '99 E300 turbodiesel for small money (it has a problem in that it won't start). I have provisionally bought this for the donor engine and box - it's an auto but I think I'll try it out for now and convert later if I don't like it. Auto probably suits teh Jag more anyway. I hope I can sort out teh non-starting problem - I'm making an assumption (hopefully not too foolish) that the problem is immobiliser or fuel delivery, or shut off solenoid related rather than something bigger)

Hi Ger,

The Turbodiesel engine from the W210 E300 1999 donor is the OM606 as well, but turbocharged. There are also other modifications of course, but it is fine engine with plenty of power and torque. The weak point in my opinion is the electronic stuff (immobiliser, electronically controlled injection pump, electonically controlled transmission, et.). I was thinking of fitting that engine (OM606 Turbo) into my 124T, instead of the normally aspirated M606 (which I tought was faulty), but after discussing that with my friend (a very well experienced Mercedes mechanic) we decided not to go that direction and my biggest concern were that electronic controlls, as the key point of the w124 for me is the reliability and lack of all that electronic complexity. Sure, it can be done and we may come back into that idea, but not for now .

Regarding the transmission, the OM606 Turbo was only available with the automatic box (you may try to pair it with some other manual box, but I wouldn't do it - I do not know a suitable manual box for the OM606 Turbo).
The other great engine that may suit you is the (very rare /non existing in Ireland) OM603 Turbo that was fitted into 124-series and available only with automatic transmission and installd only in LHD cars.

Anyway, for the swap purposes I would try to find the simplest solution that will work .

galwaytt

gn3dr wrote: »

Any idea of his name?

I dont' have it to hand, but will get it for you.

gn3dr

Here's a few pics as requested. It really is excellent bodywise. Well happy with it.
Seats will need a small bit of work - no rips or tears and it is clean but the stitching is coming undone on teh drivers seat.













It's a non runner at the moment. It ran last year but has been idle since. Checking it, I found the fuel pump isn't working. The tank filler drain tubes are blocked so water got into both tanks. Drained it all out tonight with an oil change suction tank (great things those - should have got one years ago)

I'm going to try get the V12 running and drive it for a bit while I troubleshoot what the non-starting problem is with the Merc donor car.

kasper

very nice dont forget to keep us updated on the progress

jochenstacker

Am I the only one who thinks this is not great?
To me taking a great engine and replacing it with a diesel lump from a truck is a bit to Cuba.
It's like having a Grandfather clock and saying "Let's get rid of all those nasty, unreliable cogs and springs and put a nice quartz, radio controlled LCD clock in there"
Yes, it's better, doesn't have that annoying tick, doesn't boing at you every 15 minutes and will be accurate to within a second in a million years.
But really, you're just ruining a clock that is no longer being made, will never be replaced and is just one more lost for all time.
I know that putting diesel engines into old cars is very popular in Pakistan, Vietnam and Cuba, but somehow Ireland shouldn't be in that list.
Why not buy a nice Toyota Corolla diesel if you want a reliable daily runabout?
And keep the V12 Jag in all it's glory for weekends?

gn3dr

jochenstacker wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks this is not great?
To me taking a great engine and replacing it with a diesel lump from a truck is a bit to Cuba.
It's like having a Grandfather clock and saying "Let's get rid of all those nasty, unreliable cogs and springs and put a nice quartz, radio controlled LCD clock in there"
Yes, it's better, doesn't have that annoying tick, doesn't boing at you every 15 minutes and will be accurate to within a second in a million years.
But really, you're just ruining a clock that is no longer being made, will never be replaced and is just one more lost for all time.
I know that putting diesel engines into old cars is very popular in Pakistan, Vietnam and Cuba, but somehow Ireland shouldn't be in that list.
Why not buy a nice Toyota Corolla diesel if you want a reliable daily runabout?
And keep the V12 Jag in all it's glory for weekends?

I'm sure you're not the only one but I did ask for constructive comments. While discussion is always good, I'd be less inclined to put any updates on here if it just turns into an argument.

It's because I currently drive a BMW 318tds daily and it's boooooring - I'd rather drive the Jag - wouldn't you? But it's kind of difficult to justify fuelling a V12 for daily duties. The BMW was my first diesel and while it is fine really, I am a petrolhead. But it has taught me that if I have a diesel it needs to have torque.
This car sat idle for the last two years in the UK so isn't it better to see it being used.
When this is done I'll be restoring a Daimler Double Six coupe so that'll be my V12 for occasional use. Although before the Daimler there's also another coupe which is getting an XJR straight six supercharged lump:D I suppose you'd rather leave the XK in that rather than the better AJ16?:rolleyes:

Also I think it was mentioned on here before but converting big cars to diesel is actually a very Irish thing from the eighties it's not just Cuba;)

kasper

it your car to do whatever you like with it , put in the diesel engine and enjoy driving it every day , they are an expensive car to run on petrol and that is why most of them have ended their days on the banger race track , so do what ever makes you smile

rrv8

Its criminal ripping out a V12 and putting in a smoker BUT if it is for daily use then it would be more criminal to have it standing there rotting away
I know they are a lot of money but what about some of the later Jag or Landrover smokers , if it is used for high milage they will repay for them selves in a shorter time than an old smoker , some of the modern smokers return stupid high mpg and good performance as well

But this is what I would go for , a bit of a compermise

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6-2-V8-GMC-Diesel-Complete-gearbox-/280542423467?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4151a1a9ab

Mr Benevolent

An interesting project, converting to a manual would be a travesty though! A beautiful, beautiful car.

benny_cakes

Have you thought of the 2.5 v6 TDI audi engine or the 2.5 5 cylinder Audi engine as fitted to the volvo V70???

gn3dr

benny_cakes wrote: »

Have you thought of the 2.5 v6 TDI audi engine or the 2.5 5 cylinder Audi engine as fitted to the volvo V70???

I thought a bit about the 2.5 V6 alright - but I believe it's not supposed to be the most reliable engine. They seem to command a bit of a premium too I think.
Only gave the 5 cylinder a brief thought - figured they are a bit harder to get hold of these days.

The main issue with both the VAG choices though was the lack of an easy solution for hooking them up to a rwd gearbox. I believe the 9 series Volvo gearboxes should bolt up to the 5 cylinder as they used this engine also but that all seemed to be more hassle than getting my hands on an engine and box already mated together from a RWD car.


Confab - I think I have more or less decided to leave it automatic. Influenced as well by the fact the Merc donor I have chosen is also an auto.

RRv8 - purchase price of the newer Jags and Landrovers rules them out for me. Also the annual road tax for one of those is the nail in the coffin for that option.
As for the GMC engine - the ad linked earlier in this thread is for a Jag converted with one of those. It only does about 23mpg accroding to the guy selling it. I'd consider that a rough old lump unsuitable for a Jag.
I don't think it's quite criminal to do the swap. I do struggle with it just a little bit.
I have a 2 door Range Rover as well for example and I think that is much rarer than the Jag these days - no way I'd convert that to diesel but the Jags are a bit more common. I did advertise on here looking for a Jag that had a blown or missing engine - I would have felt much better about resurrecting one of those - but I got no replies so I just went looking and found this. Final comment is that I don't plan on doing anything to the Jag that isn't reversible should it ever need to be converted back to V12 power. Hopefully I'll just have to modify the crossmsmber a little and the gearbox crossmember and these are both bolt on parts.


By the way I've been reading up on the Merc OM606 engines - there are people getting some serious power out of those - have a look at superturbodiesel.com

dr.fuzzenstein

Old Merc engine maybe, something like the Turbo unit from the old 300 TD?
Also, consider running it on vegetable oil.
Or how about going for an old Diesel Merc altogether?
Works straight out the box, nice old cars, personally love them to bits.

TigerTim

Great idea. Keep us posted on your progress. I always fancied doing something like that but never had the b@lls to do it. Loved the shape of the Jag but could never justify the running cost. Best of luck. By the way, will there be any issue with getting insurance on the conversion.

T.

gn3dr

TigerTim wrote: »

Great idea. Keep us posted on your progress. I always fancied doing something like that but never had the b@lls to do it. Loved the shape of the Jag but could never justify the running cost. Best of luck. By the way, will there be any issue with getting insurance on the conversion.

T.

I've motor trade insurance and when I changed companies last year I specifially mentioned conversions like this so insurance is OK. I know though, from when I had classic insurance with Carol Nash a few years ago, they wouldn't cover an engine change unless the donor engine was from the same age as the car,