What is Fine Gael's Education Policy?

deise go deo

I cant find it, Iv looked on their web site and googled it, Google came up with a few newspaper articles on it but not the policy itself, Where is it?

Riskymove

the most recent line is that Brian hayes was 'working on' the new policy (1st and 2nd level)...recent events have led to a change in Education spokesman

they do have a policy on Third Level reform on their website

Sulmac

Riskymove wrote: »

the most recent line is that Brian hayes was 'working on' the new policy (1st and 2nd level)...recent events have led to a change in Education spokesman

they do have a policy on Third Level reform on their website

Here's a newspaper link about their planned new education policy, although as you mentioned they've had a change in education spokesman - it's now Fergus O'Dowd. Maybe you could contact him, OP?

deise go deo

Sulmac wrote: »

Here's a newspaper link about their planned new education policy, although as you mentioned they've had a change in education spokesman - it's now Fergus O'Dowd. Maybe you could contact him, OP?

No, its just that I hear time and time again how many policies FG have, as soon as I go looking for one its not to be found.:rolleyes:

Any idea when it will be ready?

dlofnep

One system being seriously considered is the abolition of the exam in its current format to be replaced by a new system that involves more continuous assessment and collaborative work between students over a two-year period.

They have such a system, it's called the leaving cert applied and it's the most atrocious addition to the educational system seen in the past 50 years. It was quite possibly, the most horrific experience I've had in 20 years of education.

deise go deo

dlofnep wrote: »

They have such a system, it's called the leaving cert applied and it's the most atrocious addition to the educational system seen in the past 50 years. It was quite possibly, the most horrific experience I've had in 20 years of education.

Well then, no where to go but up.:cool:

Hazlittle

Increase focus on education, make IT mandatory and bring in some kind of top up fees for third level. Something about more funding for prod schools and secularisation.

Thats all I know.

Dionysus

deise go deo wrote: »

I cant find it, Iv looked on their web site and googled it, Google came up with a few newspaper articles on it but not the policy itself, Where is it?

Well, I suppose Brian Hayes is too busy dreaming about being Minister for Fee-Paying Secondary Schools in South, like, Dublin, like to bother pretending that he'll have a policy on marginalised schools, special needs education, rural schools in need of repair and all the rest.

A worse candidate for minister for education for all students in this society is hard to envisage. Smug, parochial, Dublincentric and a protégé of, God help us, John Bruton. Keep him away from education and health. He'd be a great Fine Gael minister for setting up a new Murder Squad à la Paddy Cooney in the 1970s.

There's patently an awful lack of talent in that party if gobdaws like this eejit are given a major social justice portfolio such as education.

ANXIOUS

deise go deo wrote: »

I cant find it, Iv looked on their web site and googled it, Google came up with a few newspaper articles on it but not the policy itself, Where is it?

I'm sure it'll just be whatever is popular come election time.

Sully

This is the most recent one:- http://www.finegael.org/upload/file/3rdway.pdf

deise go deo

Sully wrote: »

This is the most recent one:- http://www.finegael.org/upload/file/3rdway.pdf

Thanks but its their policy on second level education that im looking for, guess il have to sit and twiddel my thums like the rest of the electorate till they decide to let us know what they have planed:(

Sully

deise go deo wrote: »

Thanks but its their policy on second level education that im looking for, guess il have to sit and twiddel my thums like the rest of the electorate till they decide to let us know what they have planed:(

Oh right. Leave it with me and ill let you know.

Sully

ANXIOUS wrote: »

I'm sure it'll just be whatever is popular come election time.

I think your mixing up FG with Labour there dude.

Sulmac

For those interested, here's a good BBC article on Finland's education system, which FG seem to be leaning towards (according to the Tribune article, anyway).

It's definitely a model to aspire to - first in terms of reading and science and second in mathematics in the OECD.

Sully

deise go deo wrote: »

Thanks but its their policy on second level education that im looking for, guess il have to sit and twiddel my thums like the rest of the electorate till they decide to let us know what they have planed:(

Okay I spoke with Fergus O'Dowd, the new Education spokesperson. Its looking more likely we will be heading towards mid-September before something is released, but they are working on the policy at the moment. If you have any specific queries, let me know or email Fergus fergus.odowd@finegael.ie.

You can also, through myself or Fergus, pass on any suggestions or your own thoughts on what you would like to see in the document.

Hope that helps.

dlofnep

Sully, could you request any proposals they have for revamping the Irish language curriculum? I know they wish to make it optional for the leaving cert, so anything in regards to perhaps improving it in primary schools or for the junior cert would be most welcome.

Thanks

deise go deo

Thanks, Heck of a service you get around here:)

Well my Interest was in what they want to do with Irish Language education aswel.

Dionysus

Sully wrote: »

Okay I spoke with Fergus O'Dowd, the new Education spokesperson. Its looking more likely we will be heading towards mid-September before something is released, but they are working on the policy at the moment. If you have any specific queries, let me know or email Fergus fergus.odowd@finegael.ie.

You can also, through myself or Fergus, pass on any suggestions or your own thoughts on what you would like to see in the document.

Hope that helps.

Fergus O Dowd is the new education spokesperson? He should be substantially better than Brian Hayes; much more in touch with things. He's the spit of many of his cousins down in Corca Dhuibhne. I learnt my Irish with some of them many years ago. Lovely, decent people.

Sully

dlofnep wrote: »

Sully, could you request any proposals they have for revamping the Irish language curriculum? I know they wish to make it optional for the leaving cert, so anything in regards to perhaps improving it in primary schools or for the junior cert would be most welcome.

Thanks

Its unlikely there will be any specific comment in this nature, as the document is currently being put together so specifics probably wont be released until such a stage the document is ready. Have you any suggestions on how you would like the issue looked at?

In general, I find it an absolute shame that the language is not used more frequently and it does worry me that many students who study it are finding it much harder despite it being our own language compared to German, Spanish, French etc. Even people learn Arabic in schools these days here - but Irish remains a big problem. It should remain mandatory, in my view, but how its thought needs to be looked at because its failing the students and the country. Thats my view on it all anyway.

Sulmac

The way Irish is taught needs a major overhaul. It should be taught like French, German, Spanish or other foreign languages are taught. Obviously, Gaelscoileanna would be an exception.

I wasn't taught Irish until secondary school (I was educated in NI), and only learnt it for five years. I was taught it the same way I was taught French (which I did for the first three years as well), and speak better Irish than many people from the Republic I know. That's despite studying it for far shorter a period and only to GCSE level.

I'd also introduce Mandarin (Chinese) and Turkish, among other languages, into the curriculum, as well as have foreign languages studied more in primary schools.

Overall, there needs to be a greater focus on mathematics, science and IT as well.

dlofnep

Sully wrote: »

Its unlikely there will be any specific comment in this nature, as the document is currently being put together so specifics probably wont be released until such a stage the document is ready. Have you any suggestions on how you would like the issue looked at?

Could you pass us on your e-mail privately and I'll forward you on some suggestions I have wrote down. Thanks

Sully

dlofnep wrote: »

Could you pass us on your e-mail privately and I'll forward you on some suggestions I have wrote down. Thanks

Done.

dlofnep

Cheers for that

simonj

FG will have pretty much the same policy as FF - two cheeks of the one arse.

But one does hope they wont be as dense to propose that a fail grade in honours maths will suffice like that daddysgirl cluster**** of a Tainiste that we have

Sully

simonj wrote: »

FG will have pretty much the same policy as FF - two cheeks of the one arse.

But one does hope they wont be as dense to propose that a fail grade in honours maths will suffice like that daddysgirl cluster**** of a Tainiste that we have

FG have released a lot more policy documents then Labour and FF. Then again, even the odd Labour policy document is more then what FF have released.

This "similar party" thing isn't entirely accurate and you will find that FG have an education document that I don't see FF having.

edanto

Bumping an old thread here, but any sign of that FG education policy that covers primary and second level?

I'd like to compare it to Labour's - http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/education_priorities.pdf Granted, Labours is really only a page since they've wasted two pages on a plan of a new school building, but I'd like to compare and contrast!

Perhaps it's on the website, but I can't get to it at the moment because of the 'tell us what you think' changes. Would you have a link, please, or be able to ask Fergus for a shareable draft?

Sulmac

edanto wrote: »

Bumping an old thread here, but any sign of that FG education policy that covers primary and second level?

I'd like to compare it to Labour's - http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/education_priorities.pdf Granted, Labours is really only a page since they've wasted two pages on a plan of a new school building, but I'd like to compare and contrast!

Perhaps it's on the website, but I can't get to it at the moment because of the 'tell us what you think' changes. Would you have a link, please, or be able to ask Fergus for a shareable draft?

I was wondering this as well last week and checked, from what I could see there was nothing on the site about primary or secondary education.

Wasn't the document meant to have been launched months ago? Really they should have it on-line well in advance of the general election. What's the hold-up?

Sully

Sulmac wrote: »

I was wondering this as well last week and checked, from what I could see there was nothing on the site about primary or secondary education.

Wasn't the document meant to have been launched months ago? Really they should have it on-line well in advance of the general election. What's the hold-up?

dlofnep might recall better as I think we talked about it before but the current policy is on Third Level and another policy was in the making. I would assume it will be ready for the election though.

edanto

Do you know where FG stand on recognition of Educate Together as a secondary school patron?

And if they propose any changes to the legal ownership of primary schools? (It's just that Labour plan to transfer the ownership of schools from the church to the state, leaving the same management teams in place for now).

Both of those are attractive propositions to me, especially the one about ET secondary schools, there's nothing secondary level needs more than the Educate Together ethos, it's just so damn good.

senordingdong

deise go deo wrote: »

Thanks, Heck of a service you get around here:)

Well my Interest was in what they want to do with Irish Language education aswel.

I think that when they saw the unpopularity of their previous suggestion, they changed it.

E.T.

Still can't find any sign of a FG policy on primary or secondary education - has anyone managed to dig one up?

edanto

Nah, I looked on the website the other day. I guess they're so busy with the elction that we're not gonna see a policy before the big day.

Sulmac

It's here, hidden in their "5 Point Plan to Get Ireland Working" on pages 9 and 10:

Race to the Top: An Education System for the 21st Century

Fine Gael believes Ireland needs a truly world class education system which will allow it to compete successfully in the global economy of the 21st century. Unfortunately, the most recent OECD results show that Ireland’s international rankings have fallen sharply since 2000. This is despite a doubling in real educational spend between 1995 and 2006, compared to an average increase of 39% for the OECD. In literacy Ireland has fallen from 5th to 17th place, the biggest drop of any OECD country, while it ranks only 25th in maths!

In the early 1990s Finland experienced a major economic crisis. As part of its efforts to reinvent its economy it introduced major educational reform. Finland’s education system in the 1970s and 1980s shared many of the problems that Ireland faces today. Results were average at best while there was a wide achievement gap between students from different socio-economic backgrounds. By 2006 Finnish education was ranked number 1 in the OECD, helping it become one of the world’s most successful knowledge-based economies.

The Finnish Model of education was created without massive increases in spending. In fact, spending as a percentage of GDP declined from 7.9% in 1992 to 5.8% in 2006. This compares to an average of 6.1% for the OECD as a whole in 2006 on a weighted basis. Finland currently spends less per pupil than Ireland.

Finnish education also became much fairer. By 2000 it already had one of the smallest variations in reading between schools in the OECD, a trend continued in the 2003 PISA survey in mathematics.

The secret of Finland’s success is clear: Teachers are trusted and schools are given as much freedom as possible. In Ireland, by contrast, education is rigorously controlled by the Department of Education. Despite the excellence of so many of our teachers they are given little or no freedom to innovate. This is not just bad for our economy – it is also damaging for our society. Great teachers don’t just impart knowledge. They also foster creativity and encourage students to think for themselves. Our nation needs well-educated citizens who are prepared to question the status quo and act as catalysts for change and development.

Fine Gael’s Race to the Top strategy for education is built on five key pillars.

1. Tackling Disadvantage. Fine Gael will maintain the free pre-school year in early childhood care and education. As public sector reform savings are achieved through our Reinventing Government plan, we will invest a proportion of these significant savings in an early childhood education programme called ‘First Steps’ for disadvantaged children. This will build on existing targeted pre-school supports for families most in need of assistance. The DEIS (Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools) programme, which aims to overcome disadvantage in education has just been reviewed by the Educational Research Centre. We will consider the recommendations of this review and use it as a platform for new initiatives to deliver better outcomes for disadvantaged students in our schools.

2. Empowering Schools and Parents: Fine Gael will give schools greater control over their own budgets. We will also introduce a series of reforms to increase the role of parents. In particular, we will hold a National Forum on Education to allow all stakeholders, including parents, to engage in an open debate on a change of patronage in communities where it is appropriate and necessary.

3. More Freedom for Teachers: Fine Gael will give teachers a great deal more flexibility in adapting the curriculum to suit the needs of their students, as part of overall curriculum reform. We will also reform and upgrade teacher training, and enhance Continuing Professional Development. Over time we will move to a situation where teachers are qualified to Masters level in their area of expertise, as in Finland. We recognise that this measure will take some time to implement but believe it will ultimately benefit both the teacher and student.

4. Curriculum Change: Fine Gael will undertake a fundamental review of the Junior Certificate and Leaving Certificate. We believe the current system is leading to a dependency on rote learning and is not, as a result, adequately equipping students for third level and beyond.

5. Fair Funding for Higher Education: Fine Gael will develop a fairer funding system for third level to ensure every student has access to a high quality education. This will involve a graduate contribution from students of roughly a third of the cost of their course. The contribution will be made by new entrants to publicly-funded third level institutions after the student graduates, enters employment and reaches a defined income threshold. We will not increase the student registration fee further. Instead, we will pursue greater pay and non-pay efficiencies in the third level system through greater flexibility in working arrangements, in line with the Croke Park Agreement. As the student contribution model begins to return funds to the third level sector, we will phase out the student registration fee as an upfront charge. In the intervening period, we will establish a subsidised loan system for students and their families that are struggling to pay the student registration fee.

From the sounds of it, there might be a more detailed policy document ('Race to the Top') released sometime during the election campaign.

More information can be found on the Finnish education model here.

They also want to change how Irish is taught (hopefully more focus on the language itself, not literature - outside of Gaelscoileanna anyway) and make it optional after the Junior Certificate.

LeixlipRed

I'm just reading their policy documents in preparation for a debate this evening and their education policy section quoted above directly contradicts their 2009 Green Paper on higher education. Specifically in relation to the registration fee (2009, get rid of it completely, 2011, phase it out) and with regards to student loans (2009, aggressively against them, 2011 loans for reg fee). They're not even in power yet and they're already flip-flopping. Anyone who sees FG as the great white hope on the Irish political landscape is so deluded it's beyond belief.

Sully

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I'm just reading their policy documents in preparation for a debate this evening and their education policy section quoted above directly contradicts their 2009 Green Paper on higher education. Specifically in relation to the registration fee (2009, get rid of it completely, 2011, phase it out) and with regards to student loans (2009, aggressively against them, 2011 loans for reg fee). They're not even in power yet and they're already flip-flopping. Anyone who sees FG as the great white hope on the Irish political landscape is so deluded it's beyond belief.

Your a bit biased though, in saying that.

But, the economic landscape has changed and iv always remembered the FG policy was to have the graduation tax. So I would assume, and hope, that policies would need to reflect a change.

At the end of the day, the changes above are public knowledge and hardly what people want to hear - so there not soundbites.

LeixlipRed

Read the 2009 Green Paper, it's deliberately misleading. It says that they'll remove the reg fee and bring in the 30% graduate tax all while implying the grad tax is less of a burden. Despite the fact it currently would mean students paying more overall on the majority of courses (in NUIM anyway and we wouldn't have the highest fees by a long shot). It's a complete mistruth that a system like this will encourage more participation at 3rd level. It'll have the opposite effect in fact.

Sully

Their policy changed, its out their in the public, why dwell on the past? They didn't mislead people, they told people the new policy fairly publically to be fair.

Parties change their policies and views all the time.

LeixlipRed

They've changed the misleading stuff to something much worse, how's that ok? I'm not saying their lying, I'm just saying these policies are awful and an indication of the attack on the working class that's around the corner. The only people not concerned about this are the people who FG have made provisions for to be able to pay off the fees straight away after they finish their studies. i.e. the rich.

Sully

Firstly, we cant afford free education. Especially with having no money and having to ask the EU/IMF for loans. A graduation tax isn't a bad idea, but I have some reservations, but its better then this whole notion of "Ah sure, we can pay for your education no problem" that some parties and groups are pushing down peoples throats. We cant and we shouldn't. It would also help curb the drop out rate.

Secondly, the registration fee is actually part of the four year plan on generating income. I have never liked what the funds were for, and I can think of examples of where it should not have been spent. Its a way of getting money, its not that expensive either (I assume phasing out means getting cheaper, not sure) and if you cant afford it then either save up in advance or hope the grant system covers you (which needs reform also).

Concluding, the original document was done when we had more money and may have been a tad rushed. This new document reflects the fact we have no money and we cant afford to pay for everyones education and their needs to be a newer fairer way. It would be more dilluded, dishonest and misleading if Fine Gael pretended all would be grand and we could pay for anything and everything without us having to pay a bob.

Bottle_of_Smoke

What I'd like to see is the Junior cert being made more substantial(more like ordinary level leaving cert subjects) and having the leaving cert optional.

Basically like GCSEs/A-levels

dsmythy

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I'm just reading their policy documents in preparation for a debate this evening and their education policy section quoted above directly contradicts their 2009 Green Paper on higher education. Specifically in relation to the registration fee (2009, get rid of it completely, 2011, phase it out) and with regards to student loans (2009, aggressively against them, 2011 loans for reg fee). They're not even in power yet and they're already flip-flopping. Anyone who sees FG as the great white hope on the Irish political landscape is so deluded it's beyond belief.

You'd rather they make a policy and stick with it forever regardless of changes in situation? Policy changes, it has to. This is now their policy for education when they are in government. Seems it will be fleshed out further in the coming days. Debate what is put before you.