Tenants gone, house filthy, rent unpaid - options?

SwampThing

I'll keep this as brief as I can:

We have a house that the tenants have left, without notice - we found out when the rent wasn't paid and we went to the house. I'd say they're gone about 2 weeks. There is other elements of rent also outstanding.

The house is like a squat - filthy! Flies all over waste food, every room completely filthy, bins left full inside and out - just horrific. Only good thing is no major structural damage.

I've no forwarding address. Social Welfare won't give us any details, PTRB are practically useless

What are my options? My immediate thoughts are follow them for every penny of unpaid rent and costs to put the house back to how it was, but how realistic is that? I can't just chalk it up to experience - it'll cost a bomb to put right and the outstanding rent is over a grand.

How do I follow these 'people' ? Do I send a solicitors letter to the social welfare seeking their current address?

Options/opinions please.

Cheers.

January

Social Welfare can't and won't tell you where they've gone. I think you do unfortunately have to chalk it up to experience... unless you contact PRTB and see if they're registered elsewhere... have you got a copy of the form you sent to the PRTB, their PPSN's should be on that?

antoinolachtnai

I think you could seek a judgement through PRTB. PRTB may insist that you serve notice on them. This would not be a lot of use in practice. But it might be.

Also, you need to be careful to make sure that legally speaking, they have abandoned the property. A certain amount of time has to pass.

Do all these things but don't expect to actually get any money back. I would check out that issue with the abandonment, but I would be careful not to waste money with solicitors.

Take lots of photos and then get the place cleaned up and ready for the market which will begin to pick up in late august/september.

SwampThing

I have their PTRB document, so I have their PPS numbers.

I can't just let these scumbags walk away from this - they've destroyed a lovely property (the painter finished a full top to bottom re-paint the day they moved in) - they've left the bins, ESB and Gas unpaid, broken the washing machine, stolen a portable TV, left food in the presses, fridge - the house is alive with flies (and whatever else). The garden is like a jungle.

I know someone is going to say I should have kept a better eye on it - I did visit the property relatively recently (within last 3 moths) and all seemed fine, condition-wise.

There's a long story behind the rent, but there always is.

Anyway, what's the best result we can get from the PTRB - will they pay the outstanding rent, cover costs of damage, chase them for the money - how does it work.

As for the solicitor - I have to do something. These b'tards have now gone on to do this to some other landlord and they seem untouchable.

Thanks for the replies.

MidlandsM

You need to chalk it down to experience and move on. You're at nothing following these individuals.

SwampThing

MidlandsM wrote: »

You need to chalk it down to experience and move on. You're at nothing following these individuals.

Thanks but I have to see there is some natural justice here.

The PRTB site mentions tribunals etc. Do the PRTB track them down and are they compelled to attend a tribunal, if it goes that far? What powers do they have?

Thanks again.

sesna

Your main complaint seems to be uncleanliness. If there's no structural damage whats the problem? Nothing a mop, bucket and some fly spray won't sort out.

antoinolachtnai

No one is compelled to attend anything. They won't chase them for the money if you get a decision in your favour. That's your job. You are not going to find this a very satisfactory process. At the end of the day even if you do catch up with them, your former tenants aren't going to have any money to pay you your rent and compensation. There is going to be very little you can do if that turns out to be the case (which it probably will).

If you are in Galway, you should talk to other landlords to find out if there is anything else you need to know. It's not a big place. Word gets around of where people are and what they have done.

sesna

My friend had tenants who stopped paying rent for nine months before they left. He had to chalk down to experience. The law is pretty useless in this country for protection of both tenants and landlords.

SwampThing

Thanks for the info guys.

Sesna, I've a pair of marigolds here then with your name on them. :rolleyes:

sesna

SwampThing wrote: »

Thanks for the info guys.

Sesna, I've a pair of marigolds here then with your name on them. :rolleyes:

Think you need them alot more. Good luck with the mop, its actually not that bad once you try it and stop considering it beneath you.

ricman

Once you take on rent allowance tenants ,you take a chance ,they might stop paying the rent ,the esb etc if you find out where they live you could take em to the small claims court.The limit is 1500 euros damages ,i think.Hold onto receipts plus esb bills.Small claims court is free to go to.
I ,TS ALMOST impossible to be a landlord and not get ripped off by some1 at
some point,unless you are gonna ask for 2k deposits from all tenants ,not likely in this economy.so they left a mess and paid no esb,it could be alot worse.MOST of the expenses you have can be claimed against tax, if you pay a vat registered
painter etc You will not pay tax on rent you never recieved.
i know someone who recieved no rent for 12 months.
the welfare officer is not allowed to give you info,because of the data protection act.The safest option is choose tenants carefully.I presume you got a deposit.
put a new lock on the front door.TO be secure, they probably still have the keys.

SwampThing

Sensa, you don't know me from Adam or what I consider beneath me or not, so I politely tell you to f-off.


Thanks ricman - all sensible comments. I don't think 1500 will cover unpaid rent and cleanup/refurb bills, so I'll have to try PRTB route for now I think. I've read some of their judgements and tribunal decisions and there seems to be a precedent of awarding costs or expenses above the original security deposit for 'unnatural wear and tear', so there may e some light down that tunnel yet.

Thanks again.

antoinolachtnai

You cannot pursue a tenant through the small claims procedure.

travellingbid

Had this happen to me last year. Two students. Contacted the accommodation office in the Uni they attended and they contact them to tell them a complaint had been made against them and it would have to go on their record if they didn't contact me. They left some abusive messages on my phone which I advised the college of. They paid the ESB but not the 2 months rent they owed.
Hard lesson to learn:mad:

SwampThing

Didn't know that antoinolachtnai - is there a reason?

tommy21

I presume you have changed locks at least?

antoinolachtnai

You can't use it because it is for claims against businesses, either by consumers or other businesses. The former tenants are not a business.

In addition, the courts will not deal with a claim where the PRTB has proper jurisdiction.

the_syco

SwampThing wrote: »

stolen a portable TV

I'm pretty sure you can get the Gardai involved for this. Bring criminal charges against them. See can you gain any other information about them from these proceedings?

SwampThing wrote: »

Didn't know that antoinolachtnai - is there a reason?

Yup. The SCC can only be used against businesses, but not customers, as it were.

sesna

SwampThing wrote: »

they've destroyed a lovely property (the painter finished a full top to bottom re-paint the day they moved in) - they've left the bins, ESB and Gas unpaid, broken the washing machine, stolen a portable TV, left food in the presses, fridge - the house is alive with flies (and whatever else). The garden is like a jungle.

Maybe you should have gotten off your arse and pushed a lawnmower around for a few minutes on your property - that would be your responsibility afterall. Let me guess - you were happy to let the place fester while the money was coming in. Now you're upset that the tenants have gone :rolleyes:

Ciara22

Hi SwampThing,

Its a very unfortunate thing to happen but the PRTB tends to favour tenants over landlords.

You can spend your time lodging a complaint and go through the lengthy, confusing process that they set out (sometimes, it seems like they dont even know what the correct process is) but in the end, even if they do make a judgement against your tenants, they have absolutely no power to make them pay any costs at all. The most they can do is publish the case on their website but honestly, what landlord scans that to check if their new tenants are previous offenders?

Any unpaid utility bills should have been in their names so are not applicable to you. Just make sure to close off their accounts and back into yours so you dont incur cut-off fees.

As for the rest of the costs, Im afraid youre on your own at the end of the day. PRTB cant do anything and a solicitor will cost you more than you will get out of it.

Ciara22

Oh btw sesna, any standard lease agreement says that the tenant is responsible for the upkeep of the gardens so its not an unreasonable expectation.

Doom

I know its no help now, but for future make it your business to know where at least one of them works or which college they're at

Blizzard

Swampthing - I feel for you! It's absolutely unbelievable what some tenants will do or not do to a property. Furthermore, some [not all] individuals who are getting a free house from Social Welfare do absolutely NOTHING to maintain the property only destroy whatever they get - and get away with it. This is another example of what a joke this country has become; if social was paying for a house that was destroyed there should be some policy about a tenant such as this not being able to get another one in the future.

Maybe you should have gotten off your arse and pushed a lawnmower around for a few minutes on your property - that would be your responsibility afterall. Let me guess - you were happy to let the place fester while the money was coming in. Now you're upset that the tenants have gone

Sesna - you are probably on social yourself or your in la la land. How many people do you know that rent a house that comes with a gardener? Tenants in all rented houses, not apartments, that I know of are responsible for mowing their own gardens. It sounds like you are a bit envious of swampthing, who was able to go out there and purchase a buy to let property and appears to have been doing things the right way until some useless, freeloading, waste of space turns the house upside down and leaves without a care in the world. You really should read your replies before you post them. Maybe you live in a world where you have an employed butler, but I doubt it by your response.:rolleyes:

Swampthing, I think you should do whatever you can without making yourself crazy in order to 'go after' these individuals meaning making the complaint with PRTB in writing and the same for Social Welfare as they should be aware of where their housing money is going and what these lowlifes have done to your property. After that, I'd agree with the others, chalk it up to experience, count yourself lucky they didn't do any structural damage and try to restore the place and get it rented out to better tenants next time. Do your research when vetting the next tenants and go with your gut. Good luck.

sesna

Blizzard wrote: »

Sesna - you are probably on social yourself or your in la la land. How many people do you know that rent a house that comes with a gardener? Tenants in all rented houses, not apartments, that I know of are responsible for mowing their own gardens. It sounds like you are a bit envious of swampthing, who was able to go out there and purchase a buy to let property and appears to have been doing things the right way until some useless, freeloading, waste of space turns the house upside down and leaves without a care in the world. You really should read your replies before you post them. Maybe you live in a world where you have an employed butler, but I doubt it by your response.:rolleyes:

Anyone with any sort of job was able to go "out there" and buy a property. Im not envious that I dont have a huge burden of negative equity around my neck now. As for the rest of your post, I can only laugh.

3DataModem

You should not be liable for utilities that were in tenant names. A tenant ran out on me owing the ESB two grand after 3 months (he purchased a tv and video on instalments) and a 1500 mobile bill. I called the ESB, Eircom and Meteor and gave them all the contact info I had (referees, employers, etc)... they were very grateful. This was (probably) not in breach of DPA as I had a clause in the lease covering provision of referee information to utility companies. I put the ESB back in my name no problem.

Grizzly 45

From a good few years experiance in this game and alot of horror stories and cleaning upmesses you wouldnt belive.[Like 9months worth of ****ty nappies from a cupboard.]

ESB,Gas,Cable,etc.
Keep it in the landlords name,and get a substantial refundable deposit.That way if they dont pay the bill,they use up their deposit.Once thats gone,you can cut off the facilities if they are not paying.

Cleaning deposit.
Non refundable.No matter how much somone cleans a place or keeps it clean.You still have to clean it[paint,it repair worn and torn things]So figure how much two days worth of work for you or a man will cost for this deposit.


Inventory,
Everything.Go thru the place with the tenant,agree on damages or items that were not the best ,so that there is no dispute on damages later.
I find it is worth photoing or videoing with a date/time stamp camera the property before somone moves in and afterwards if it is a kip.
Inspect
The property regulary.Keep your side of the bargin,and make sure they do to.
NO PETS SIMPLE!Amazing how different a place is without a dog or cat loose in it.
Personally,I wont have rent allowance tenants ever again.
Have had too many problems with them,drunks,druggies,messies,etc.Lost money on those types.Better to have a property empty than being sticking in grands and having it totalled every 6months.

I have been stung before as well,but you WILL get to be a good judge of chacter pretty quick of prospective tenants.Ask for references off previous landlords as well,and CHECK them.If they are genuine they will have no problem with the landlords addy and vice versa.Also if you can get a reference for where they work and bank account details,DD is the way to go.If they have problems with this,find somone else maybe.
This is standard procedure in modern life nowadays.In the US they want in some states your police record and credit rating...


Trouble is with this .Everyone in the CT years thought this would be a grand way to pay for the mortage and climb the property ladder with little work involved,or "shure they are just students,etc.Any old crap will do!"
Trouble is people ,being a LL is work and a fulltime job as well.No one is going to look after your property as well as you will.If you wont put the effort into it you will get crap tenants that will leave it like crap.
Forget INMHO letting agencies and property maintenance companies.The first want a fat fee and dont really care who they stuff into your property.
Maintence companies ,cost alot for the least effort on their part.Save your money and do it yourself.

kenbrady

Blizzard wrote: »

How many people do you know that rent a house that comes with a gardener? Tenants in all rented houses, not apartments, that I know of are responsible for mowing their own gardens.

Since December 1st 2009 it has been a legal requirement for landlords to maintain the gardens of a rented property.

Blizzard wrote: »

You really should read your replies before you post them.

The_Conductor

Guys- I'm issuing a blanket warning on this thread- if you disagree with what someone else posts- refute it factually- do not personalise your replies.

Its not that difficult to remain civil to one another. Anymore misbehaviour will result in folk taking holidays from posting in this forum.......

variety

kenbrady wrote: »

Since December 1st 2009 it has been a legal requirement for landlords to maintain the gardens of a rented property.

True, but that only applies if a lease has been signed on or after 01/12/2009.

astrofool

variety wrote: »

True, but that only applies if a lease has been signed on or after 01/12/2009.

What's the story if the landlord puts it in the lease (post 01/12/09) that the tenant is responsible for garden upkeep? Who do the authorities go after?

Does it apply to front and back gardens?

Seems a bit ridiculous that a landlord would need once a week access to maintain a property. Also stupid that someone would rent a place with a garden, but not be prepared to maintain (assuming lawn mower was supplied).

bugler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

ESB,Gas,Cable,etc.
Keep it in the landlords name,and get a substantial refundable deposit.That way if they dont pay the bill,they use up their deposit.Once thats gone,you can cut off the facilities if they are not paying.

Cleaning deposit.
Non refundable.No matter how much somone cleans a place or keeps it clean.You still have to clean it[paint,it repair worn and torn things]So figure how much two days worth of work for you or a man will cost for this deposit.

You are not entitled to take a "cleaning deposit". The tenants can cause normal wear and tear and it does not cost them a cent. As a matter of courtesy the dwelling should be clean when leaving, but you have no basis for charging a "non-refundable" deposit as a little boon for your end of tenancy party. You need to read a copy of the RTA 2004, and I hope I never meet you as a landlord. You are letting your house/apartment out as a professional business - try acting like a professional. You might be treated as such in return. I thought this sort of backward, dark-ages, scamster landlordism was on the wane, but I suppose there are always a few.

Also, I have yet to be told of any good reason for keeping bills in the landlord's name. Your name, your responsiblity. Tenant's name, tenant's responsiblity. The ESB or another provider cannot hold you accountable for a debt to another.

On the garden issue: I thought there was some sort of common sense arrangement where a landlord either provided a mower and the tenant was responsible, or else provided nothing and did it themselves?

antoinolachtnai

There is no problem that I can see with requiring the tenant to maintain the gardens. However, the landlord is going to be the one with a problem if this is not done. I don't really think it matters what date the lease was signed.

The rationale for this law was that rented houses were being left completely unkempt and there was no clear responsibility for it. Previously there was no particular responsibility on anybody for the upkeep of gardens and frontage.

antoinolachtnai

I would be extremely cautious about cutting off utilities in relation to a dispute with a tenant, no matter how the payment is structured.

Grizzly 45

bugler wrote: »

You are not entitled to take a "cleaning deposit". The tenants can cause normal wear and tear and it does not cost them a cent.

As a matter of courtesy the dwelling should be clean when leaving, but you have no basis for charging a "non-refundable" deposit as a little boon for your end of tenancy party.

Right! So you as a tenant will paint it?Hoover it properly ,wash the windows,clean all fixtures and fittings etc???Right sure you will!!!
There is clean and "clean".

In fairness I'd rather rent to forgeniers than the Irish.They have a better concept of renting,not to mind personal hygeine and what their responsibilities areas tenants, unlike the Irish,who just seem to be happy if on rent allowance to just live in their own filth!
This BTW isnt bias but experiance of over 30 years renting property.

You need to read a copy of the RTA 2004, and I hope I never meet you as a landlord. You are letting your house/apartment out as a professional business - try acting like a professional.

Got one thank you very much,and it doesnt say FK all about it.I could be sneaky and just build it into the rent deposit,but I like to be honest with my dealings with people and tell them why.
Well with your attitude I wouldnt rent anything to you .Maybe you should move out from your parents bedroom and actually try renting somthing in the real world ??:rolleyes:
Professionalism works both ways..

You might be treated as such in return. I thought this sort of backward, dark-ages, scamster landlordism was on the wane, but I suppose there are always a few.

More like taken advantage of !Presonally I would love to see a bad tenant register that is the norm in Europe.You total a place welshout on the rent etc.Your name is on the list and you will be living in a cardboard box under a bridge until you have sorteed out the rent arrears and damage.Holland is big on this.Proper order too!

Also, I have yet to be told of any good reason for keeping bills in the landlord's name. Your name, your responsiblity. Tenant's name, tenant's responsiblity. The ESB or another provider cannot hold you accountable for a debt to another.

REALLLLYYYYYYY?????? Then you would know if there is three default accounts at an address over a 3year period.The ESB wont reconnect the power without a substantial deposit of the property owner.Hence the reason I keep it in my name.Too many smart asses have stung us over the years.Thats a good enough reason for me.

On the garden issue: I thought there was some sort of common sense arrangement where a landlord either provided a mower and the tenant was responsible, or else provided nothing and did it themselves?

Rather do it myself.No point in providing somthing and the tenant is too lazy,couldnt be arsed,or deliberatly breaks the provided equipment.

Grizzly 45

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I would be extremely cautious about cutting off utilities in relation to a dispute with a tenant, no matter how the payment is structured.

You are not cutting it off .The power company is cutting off YOUR account to the property that you own for non payment.If the tenant didnt pay you and used up their power bill deposit,and they want to sit in the dark...No skin off your nose.They pay you,you pay the power company on their behalf,they have light.Onus is on tenant paying ,and you paying your bill on that property with the money given to you for that bill.If you go and mis use the money given to you,then you have broken a contract,and the tenant has a comeback on you.Simple.

Xiney

if the power company cuts off power for non-payment on an account in your name that is affecting YOUR credit rating with that company - and much like a tenant they won't shut it off just like that, they will allow the account to go into arrears. You'll be in a worse position.


Furthermore, since as a landlord you are able to offset expenses against tax paid, cleaning costs/repair of normal wear and tear is NOT the responsibility of the tenant. As a professional, you have to account for the fact that you can't just sit back and let the money roll in - some ongoing investment will always be necessary. Particularly more if you can't seem to keep any of your tenants happy and they all move out at the end of every 12 month period.

Kimia

Absolutely agree Xiney. Grizzly I'm disgusted at your attitude. I can't believe that you don't think you have any responsibility for the upkeep and management of your property - this includes painting, repairs etc. These are not the responsibility of the tenant and to be honest I'd be horrified if I had you as a landlord.

I as a tenant make sure to keep any apartment I live in exceptionally clean, and I submit to quarterly inspections etc. I would expect the same courtesy back, ie landlord making prompt repairs, making sure the place is freshly painted and spotless before we move in. That's the landlord's responsibility as surely it's in his/her interest to rent the place out to good tenants, not just use them as money spinners.

I hope the recession and as such the massive availability of good quality rental properties has put paid to tight-fisted, mean landlords like you.

Grizzly 45

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Right! So you as a tenant will paint it?Hoover it properly ,wash the windows,clean all fixtures and fittings etc???Right sure you will!!!
There is clean and "clean".

That's your job, for YOU to pay for. All the tenants have to do is keep it reasonably clean, not paint it etc! How on earth do you justify taking money from tenants for that stuff?

Got one thank you very much,and it doesnt say FK all about it.I could be sneaky and just build it into the rent deposit,but I like to be honest with my dealings with people and tell them why.
Well with your attitude I wouldnt rent anything to you .Maybe you should move out from your parents bedroom and actually try renting somthing in the real world ??:rolleyes:
Professionalism works both ways..

I've been renting for over 8 years now and have had some real a**holes for landlords, but never paid a non-refundable 'cleaning deposit'.

More like taken advantage of !Presonally I would love to see a bad tenant register that is the norm in Europe.You total a place welshout on the rent etc.Your name is on the list and you will be living in a cardboard box under a bridge until you have sorteed out the rent arrears and damage.Holland is big on this.Proper order too!

Tenants also have many more rights on the continent, generally.

Blizzard

Since December 1st 2009 it has been a legal requirement for landlords to maintain the gardens of a rented property.

OK - sesna and ken brady - I retract my previous statement referring to the garden upkeep. I'm not even sure where this was posted as it is news to me now, but note has been made. However, like other landlords here, I too agree that is ridiculous for a ll to be responsible for maintaining gardens every 7-10 days or so especially when the upkeep of a house is usually left to the tenant. If you're renting an apartment it's a different story as I believe communal areas and gardens are upkept with the funds from the yearly fee that is charged in most complexes. That said, any LL who keeps an eye on a property would know if it is being maintained or not so that it does not become an issue for the surrounding neighbours/area. Going forward with any new lease I would have something agreed upon in a lease stating who is responsible for what. Would this be allowed and cover this situation?

Anyone with any sort of job was able to go "out there" and buy a property. Im not envious that I dont have a huge burden of negative equity around my neck now.

Sesna, have to disagree with you on this one. While I can agree that there were some ignorant people who purchased property and have a huge burden of negative equity around their necks now, there are quite a few who thought things through. Those who bought an investment property when prices were good/reasonable (pre CT) & they could afford it (and still can), who are looking forward to a solid investment for retirement and are not in negative equity and act as professional LL's who provide good accommodation to tenants dealing with any situations/repairs that come up. The whole point of the OP's point is that he/she had a house let out in good condition and ended up with one that needs major decorating done to it before it can be let out again, is stuck with bills & unpaid rent and is fed up with the system that some people appear to be riding and getting away with it, and I agree with him/her that they should be stopped.

sesna

Blizzard wrote: »

Sesna, have to disagree with you on this one. While I can agree that there were some ignorant people who purchased property and have a huge burden of negative equity around their necks now, there are quite a few who thought things through. Those who bought an investment property when prices were good/reasonable (pre CT) & they could afford it (and still can), who are looking forward to a solid investment for retirement and are not in negative equity and act as professional LL's who provide good accommodation to tenants dealing with any situations/repairs that come up. The whole point of the OP's point is that he/she had a house let out in good condition and ended up with one that needs major decorating done to it before it can be let out again, is stuck with bills & unpaid rent and is fed up with the system that some people appear to be riding and getting away with it, and I agree with him/her that they should be stopped.

I dont have a property in negative equity. Im fortunate to have a deposit saved and could buy a house tomorrow if I wanted. I'm grateful I'm not stuck like many unfortunate people (I certainly wouldn't call them ignorant as you do) in shoe box apartments, only to have the government stating nobody forced them to buy, all while FF banks such as Anglo are given blank cheques to the tune of billions. Must be sickening having no prospect of upgrading or moving. Also sickening given we have several Oireachtas transcripts of FF TD's and senators proclaiming there was never a better time to buy property (in mid-2006 - 2007)

In your post, don't forget to include the context of a "fcuk you" from the OP for making some points about a friend who had difficulty with tenants not paying rent for 9 months (seems to be removed now), and your assertion that any points made by me were borne out of envy of not having bought my own property (and my being on "social" :rolleyes:). Seems like the main complaint outlined from the OP related to bins and rubbish being left in the dwelling. Nasty thing for the tenants to do, but nothing a few hours wouldn't sort out.:cool:

Also, as stated I think the law in this country is fairly useless for protecting tenants (from scam artist landlords not returning desposits with valid reason, not providing PPS number for rent relief etc). Also separately it's pretty useless for landlords, especially when rent is not being paid and a lengthy, cumbersome court order procedure has to be processed for eviction to occur.

mkahnisbent

the_syco wrote: »

[Regarding the stolen telly] I'm pretty sure you can get the Gardai involved for this.

This.

SwampThing

Thanks to all for your comments/advise - whether I agree with it or not, it's good to see other peoples experiences/points of view.

Our situation is, we didn't rush out and buy to let, we moved to a new home and retained or original house as an investment. It has a front and back garden, quite large back garden,which I supply a lawnmower but do expect the tenants to maintain the outside. When we let the house originally, we went through a letting agency and the lease document they drew up included upkeep of the gardens. Anyway, that's just a requirement we have - maybe other landlords are different.

I think we're conventional enough in that we ask for a months rent for a security deposit and rent monthly in advance by DD - no non-refundable deposits or anything.

I don't expect tenants to pay for painting etc - that's our responsibility. But, I wouldn't expect to have to paint it every year. We had 5 people living in the property for over 3 years and they left it immaculate. Normal wear and tear on the carpets etc. but that's to be expected. We refunded their full deposit, minus outstanding gas bill - by agreement with the tenants (they were leaving for Poland the morning they vacated the property and wanted to stay the night before). We inspected the property the night before, paid their deposit and they left the next morning - no problems. They left no unpaid bills and I would have them back in a heartbeat.

My, possibly naive, view is that we provide tenants with a fully furnished property, very well maintained and we expect them to do two things - pay their rent on time and keep the place (allowing for normal wear and tear) as they found it.

There are so many things wrong with how this is unfolding, yet I as the landlord seem to have absolutely no rights or support to ensure the tenants side of the bargain is honored. The leave without notice of terminating the lease, have outstanding rent, outstanding utility bills, leave the place filthy, have fraudulently used social welfare rent allowance for other purposes - and yet social welfare will continue to give them rent allowance against another property where they will probably leave it under the same circumstances.
I as the landlord cannot get contact details from any agency, the guards will not get involved, the social welfare will not take them to task for the fraud and even if we went to the Nth degree through PRTB and got a tribunal decision, we're never likely to get our money. This system is wrong on so many levels - why wouldn't someone be on the dole, claiming these benefits and enjoying the protection of the state versus working and contributing. God help the next TD to land on my doorstep looking for a vote!

Anyway, I don't think we have any choice but to take this to its logical conclusion, if for noting else but to get it listed on PRTB and potentially save some other landlord from taking on these scumbags.

Sensa - if you read what I wrote - my gripe is not only the state of the place - it's the apparent immunity these a-holes have from being held accountable and the evident bias of legislation in favor of the tenants. Tenants hold all the cards - if a landlord won't play ball on rent allowance/rent reliefs etc. the tenants have avenues to explore. I, on the other, have nowhere to turn to recoup my unpaid rent and extraordinary clean-up costs. I also have a property off the market while I clean up their sh1t.

Anyway, I'd really like to hear from other landlords who've gone through the PRTB disputes resolution process - anyone have experience of that?

Cheers

the_syco

sesna wrote: »

Nasty thing for the tenants to do, but nothing a few hours wouldn't sort out.:cool:

Correction: nothing a weekend won't sort out, with a skip, a shovel, the possibility of having to replace furniture due to mould and for hygienic reasons, of having to fully air the place out, to ensure that there are no rats or insects that this sort of crap tends to attract. Not to mention scrubbing and repainting the walls which he had gotten a painter to do a nice job on.

We're not talking of a few hours of elbow grease that you need to do after a "good" tenant leaves, we're talking about cleaning the entire place after scumbags have infested it. And that takes time and money. Money that the OP will never see again.

=-=

Again, file a report with the Gardai about the missing TV. Get one of them, and if they don't want criminal charges pressed against them, I'm sure they'll be only too happy to give you the addresses of the others.

bugler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

bugler wrote: »

You are not entitled to take a "cleaning deposit". The tenants can cause normal wear and tear and it does not cost them a cent.

Right! So you as a tenant will paint it?Hoover it properly ,wash the windows,clean all fixtures and fittings etc???Right sure you will!!!
There is clean and "clean".

Your tenant does not have to paint it, nor pay for it to be painted unless there is cause for saying the walls have been dirtied above normal wear and tear. Painting or paying for painting is way outside any tenant's obligation. That you feel this sense of entitlement shows the regard you hold your tenants in. They should be damn glad to have the place to live in, ingrates! In short, a tenant does not have to make the dwelling “clean”. Just clean.

Got one thank you very much,and it doesnt say FK all about it.

You need to look harder:

“Section 12.1. “(d) subject to subsection (4), return or repay promptly any deposit paid by the tenant to the landlord on entering into the
agreement for the tenancy or lease,”

He aforementioned subsection (4) outlines the conditions under which return of deposit may not be necessary:

(4) Subsection (1)(d) applies and has effect subject to the following
provisions:
(a) no amount of the deposit concerned shall be required to be
returned or repaid if, at the date of the request for return or
repayment, there is a default in—
(i) the payment of rent and the amount of rent that is in
arrears is equal to or greater than the amount of the
deposit, or
(ii) compliance with section 16(f) and the amount of the costs
that would be incurred by the landlord, were he or she
to take them, in taking such steps as are reasonable for
the purposes of restoring the dwelling to the condition
mentioned in section 16(f) is equal to or greater than the
amount of the deposit,
(b) where, at the date of the request for return or repayment, there is
a default in the payment of rent or compliance with section
16(f) and subparagraph (i) or (ii), as the case may be, of
paragraph (a) does not apply, then there shall only be required to be returned or repaid under subsection
(1)(d) the difference between the amount of rent that is in
arrears or, as appropriate, the amount of the costs that would
be incurred in taking steps of the kind referred to in paragraph
(a)(ii).

Section 16(f) as mentioned above outlines tenant obligations. The key part is the first section, most notably “but there shall be disregarded…”.

(f ) not do any act that would cause a deterioration in the condition
the dwelling was in at the commencement of the tenancy,
but there shall be disregarded, in determining whether this
obligation has been complied with at a particular time, any
deterioration in that condition owing to normal wear and
tear, that is to say wear and tear that is normal having regard
to—
(i) the time that has elapsed from the commencement of the
tenancy,
(ii) the extent of occupation of the dwelling the landlord
must have reasonably foreseen would occur since that
commencement, and
(iii) any other relevant matters,

Some wear and tear to a dwelling over time, such as dirtied walls, is unavoidable, and is not grounds for deposit retention. There it is in plain English.

Even simpler still is this, from the PRTB’s explanatory notes on Deposit Refund:

Deposit Refund
Tenants are entitled to a refund of the deposit paid at the commencement of the tenancy
where there is no rent owing in respect of the tenancy and there is no damage to the dwelling
beyond normal wear and tear at the end of the tenancy. Landlords are required to refund the
deposit promptly less any deductions in respect of outstanding rent and damage in excess of
normal wear and tear.

In fairness I'd rather rent to forgeniers than the Irish.

Yeah, I get that impression. But I doubt it’s for the reasons you outline. I’m sure you are quite adept at picking vulnerable tenants to scam with your cleaning deposit racket, and whatever else you cook up. How people fall for it I don’t know, particularly with so much rental accommodation around.

The Act itself and the explanatory notes can be found here: http://www.prtb.ie/act.htm

The_Conductor

Guys- Calm down, post in a factual manner and do not attack fellow forum users. This is the last warning I'm going to post on this thread.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

variety

SwampThing wrote: »

the tenants have left, without notice - There is [..] rent outstanding.

Raise a dispute with the PRTB and claim reimbursement for incorrect notice period and outstanding rent.

SwampThing wrote: »

The house is like a squat - filthy! Flies all over waste food, every room completely filthy, bins left full inside and out - just horrific. What are my options?

No options - you cannot claim for cleaning.

SwampThing wrote: »

they've left the bins, ESB and Gas unpaid

Were all the bills in the tenants' names? If so, just get them changed back to yours - you cannot be charged for something you were not responsible for.

SwampThing wrote: »

broken the washing machine

Do you know the washing machine was broken deliberately? If so, raise a dispute with the PRTB and claim reimbursement for its repair.

SwampThing wrote: »

stolen a portable TV

Open a case with the Guards.

SwampThing wrote: »

left food in the presses, fridge - the house is alive with flies (and whatever else).

You cannot claim for cleaning. But if you need to get pest control in (if the flies are laying eggs in the soft furnishings, for example) then raise a dispute with the PRTB and claim reimbursement for pest control costs.

SwampThing wrote: »

The garden is like a jungle.

As I already posted, this is your responsibility. Nothing you can do. You cannot put a clause in a lease that diminishes a tenant's rights under the RTA. You cannot claim for any money you have to spend restoring the garden to its previous state.

SwampThing wrote: »

What's the best result we can get from the PTRB - will they pay the outstanding rent, cover costs of damage, chase them for the money - how does it work.

PRTB will pay nothing - they will enter a judgment which may or not be be heeded, as other posters have said.

SwampThing wrote: »

As for the solicitor - I have to do something.

You will only be wasting more money if you involve a solicitor - the PRTB is there to assist you with these issues (everyone has an opinion on whether or not they're helpful). Save your money - you'll spend enough on getting the property back to a habitable standard.


Things you can claim reimbursement for with the PRTB:
- insufficient notice period
- rent arrears
- vacancy period between when tenants left and when you can get the property rented again (assuming, of course that the old tenant's lease would still have been valid)
difference between the new rent achieved and the rent the old tenants were paying (if old tenant's lease would still have been valid)
- repair to damaged furniture, fixtures and fittings

Itemise everything in the PRTB dispute that you have an issue with, but only claim for what you are entitled to reimbursement for. And make sure to take photos (with dates) and submit them with the dispute application. Best of luck!

boarduser1980

Doom wrote: »

I know its no help now, but for future make it your business to know where at least one of them works or which college they're at

when i was renting years ago , the letting agency asked me for a personal character reference AND a reference from my Job

boarduser1980

bugler wrote: »

On the garden issue: I thought there was some sort of common sense arrangement where a landlord either provided a mower and the tenant was responsible, or else provided nothing and did it themselves?

i thought the same. My father rents out his house and was told by the letting agency that he had to supply a lawnmower to the tenants. My father bought a garden shed and lawn mower. The tenants maintain the garden.

Fuinseog

Ciara22 wrote: »

Oh btw sesna, any standard lease agreement says that the tenant is responsible for the upkeep of the gardens so its not an unreasonable expectation.

no, the tenant is responsile for the keeping the inside of the domicile tidy and clean. the garden is for the landlord to maintain. the tenant does not usaullz have a lwan mower. as another poster pointed out manz landlords just want to make money from the property and do not maintain it.

variety

Dambant wrote: »

i thought the same. My father rents out his house and was told by the letting agency that he had to supply a lawnmower to the tenants. My father bought a garden shed and lawn mower. The tenants maintain the garden.

Well that is the "common sense" rule, but the law is different. If you provide the tenants with a lawnmower and shed and they tell you they're not going to maintain the garden, it's still the LL's responsibility to maintain it. But there are very few tenants who would want the LL turning up once a week during the summer months to mow the lawn and weed the beds, so most tenants are happy to oblige (probably about 10 times a year rather than the 20 or so it really needs).