Wooden AEG's Options

Flecktarn

Hey all,

It's that time again for me to get a new gun.
I'm looking for something wooden/WW2,
but not specifically them, anything with a good bit of real wood interests me.

Not really looking for any AK variant's. I love to get something like a Kar98 but the shell ejection system is a bit of a pain.

Cheers!

Puding

not many cheap options, there are the cyma thompson and the dboys kar but i do not really class them as wood, there furniture is to wood what MDF is to Oak

if you want real wood on a stock device your looking at the gas m1 carbine, garand or kar from company's like Marushin and Tanaka . other wish it would be a case of picking up the increasing rare wood kits for the tm thompson or custom fitting real wood furniture from something like a FAL/SLR onto an airsoft replica, nether easy or cheap

if your looking for a kar then the tanaka magazine feed version would maybe something to look at

Washington Irving

M14, maybe? The G&G Walnut stock version is supposed to be pretty good. Its a bit pricey though at around E450,I think. For some reason I think thermo has one, maybe you could ask him about it

bullets

Must confess after getting waaaayyy tooo many big black
dangerous looking Snnniiper type guns I have a craving
for some AEG/GBB's that have wood furniture.

Plastic that looks like wood does not do it for me, Cheap nasty easy to crack if you
drop dyed bright orange type wook does not do it for me either.
Would be interested to know what real quality wood like stuff is out there.


~B

Lemming

bullets wrote: »

Must confess after getting waaaayyy tooo many big black
dangerous looking Snnniiper type guns I have a craving
for some AEG/GBB's that have wood furniture.

Oh rly? Is that so eh? A craving?

To shamlessly self-plug or not to ....

bullets wrote: »

Would be interested to know what real quality wood like stuff is out there.

Many pennies worth of stuff.

I have both the Marushin M1 Garand (Walnut stock edition), and the VFC m1918 mk.II B.A.R. and having held and owned cheap wood-tack (my thompson until I stripped it to fit a G&P M41A pulse rifle kit on it), having quality wood is seriously noticable both aesthetically and in your hand.

Both of course cost a pretty penny and I sincerely doubt you'll find decent wood-furnished WW2 airsoft guns for under €400

bullets

Lemming wrote: »

I have both the Marushin M1 Garand (Walnut stock edition

Was gonna buy the M1 in Walnut before.
Is the wood actually Walnut wood ? was not sure
when I was reading reviews if it was Walnut wood or
cheap wood made to look like actual walnut.


~B

Lemming

bullets wrote: »

Was gonna buy the M1 in Walnut before.

With apologies to Sir Alec Guinness;

/waves hand

This isn't the gun you're looking for; but that BAR in the corner sure looks good.

*cough*

Is the wood actually Walnut wood ? was not sure
when I was reading reviews if it was Walnut wood or
cheap wood made to look like actual walnut.

I don't actually know since I seem to have missed every woodwork class in secondary school. Other than the fact I bought (and I hope to hell I was handed the correct one; where's Shiva to soothe your frayed nerves when you need him?) the Walnut edition, I couldn't answer without first handing the gun to my father for inspection.

Shiva

Lemming wrote: »

I don't actually know since I seem to have missed every woodwork class in secondary school. Other than the fact I bought (and I hope to hell I was handed the correct one; where's Shiva to soothe your frayed nerves when you need him?) the Walnut edition, I couldn't answer without first handing the gun to my father for inspection.

Its genuine recycled cardboard painted with Dulux Walnut Gloss.

Lemming

Shiva wrote: »

Its genuine recycled cardboard painted with Dulux Walnut Gloss.

^^ it is at this point that Lemmings mind snapped.

Flecktarn

bullets wrote: »

Must confess after getting waaaayyy tooo many big black
dangerous looking Snnniiper type guns I have a craving
for some AEG/GBB's that have wood furniture.

Plastic that looks like wood does not do it for me, Cheap nasty easy to crack if you
drop dyed bright orange type wook does not do it for me either.
Would be interested to know what real quality wood like stuff is out there.
~B

Bullets I feel the exact same way! Too much black/tan, not enough wood!

Eoin3k

How about the mp44(stg44) from m.i.a. It is full
metal And wood, and comes with 2 mags. Accuracy is good, but rof is decent.Hard to upgrade.I would reccomend it if you are looking for a ww2 replica gun. Costs around 190euro.

bullets

Sorry for drifting off topic (I always do this when drunk and I am ashamed of dragging real steal into Airsoft threads)

The Wood Vs Black Plastic issue also appears in Irish Real steel shooting circles.

I initially when started shooting wanted a big bad ass looking evil black coloured synthetic stocked version of my rifle so it would semi-pass for something out of a hollywood movie that looked sniper-ish, (Big urban Townie mistake) That was when I realised that all the club guns at the range were cheap ass black plastic. As soon as I knew they were common as muck and ordered for ruggedness rather than being pretty (and the thoughts of some noob acidently picking up my rifle thinking it was a club gun by accident) I immediatly retreated into opting to get some Real Wood for my stock. As I matured a little have grown to apreciate the Wood look.

Same seem's to hold true to Airsoft. Now that I have got a few big bad evil deathstar like ultimate black AEG's its left me with
a disire to add a little more colour into the collection. And real wood has got to be the ulitimate with all things airsoft.

~B

Flecktarn

Eoin3k wrote: »

How about the mp44(stg44) from m.i.a. It is full
metal And wood, and comes with 2 mags. Accuracy is good, but rof is decent.Hard to upgrade.I would reccomend it if you are looking for a ww2 replica gun. Costs around 190euro.

Hmm I was thinking of one, but I changed my
mind when I shouldered one, felt awful tbh.

Kinda like a Thompson but worse nearly,
maybe might change my mind but I'm stubborn :pac:
Cheers anyways though.

bullets wrote: »

Sorry for drifting off topic (I always do this when drunk and I am ashamed of dragging real steal into Airsoft threads)

The Wood Vs Black Plastic issue also appears in Irish Real steel shooting circles.

I initially when started shooting wanted a big bad ass looking evil black coloured synthetic stocked version of my rifle so it would semi-pass for something out of a hollywood movie that looked sniper-ish, (Big urban Townie mistake) That was when I realised that all the club guns at the range were cheap ass black plastic. As soon as I knew they were common as muck and ordered for ruggedness rather than being pretty (and the thoughts of some noob acidently picking up my rifle thinking it was a club gun by accident) I immediatly retreated into opting to get some Real Wood for my stock. As I matured a little have grown to apreciate the Wood look.

Same seem's to hold true to Airsoft. Now that I have got a few big bad evil deathstar like ultimate black AEG's its left me with
a disire to add a little more colour into the collection. And real wood has got to be the ulitimate with all things airsoft.

~B

Massive +1 Bullets, the wooden finish has to be appreciated.

Ever since I started airsoft I looked desperately for a M870 shotgun
with some real wood on it but alas none of them were found.

However if you mix something like this
with the 3 shot and shell function of the DE M56 I would be all over that.
The fact that its single shot is pretty annoying but the horrible
magazine hanging off it makes it look terrible.

Still waiting on one to this day

Irishmaster

Costs a fortune but what about an Ares PPSH EBB real wood??? Was thinking of getting one but too expensive for me!

Flecktarn

Irishmaster wrote: »

Costs a fortune but what about an Ares PPSH EBB real wood??? Was thinking of getting one but too expensive for me!

Exact same here Too expensive

MonkeyGuy

It's such a shame. There's such a huge market for wooden ww2 guns and at an affordable price and yet there's so few

Lemming

Flecktarn wrote: »

Exact same here Too expensive

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

It's such a shame. There's such a huge market for wooden ww2 guns and at an affordable price and yet there's so few

I don't get airsofters sometimes ... I really don't.

You all want somebody to take the R&D effort, manufacturing, etc. to come up with a particular gun, then expect it for clone prices. The only reason that clones are so cheap is that they simply wait for someone else to do all the R&D work for them, then just copy in large volumes for economy of scale. So which comes first? The clone or the 'original'?

On top of that WW2 is a niche market, so the number of units sold will be much less than cranking out an m4 or an AK variant. On top of that, there are very few WW2 guns of any decent quality for less than €300. The thompson, the mp40, d-boys kar-98, and the god-awful one-piece-body mp44 come to mind. The AGM Sten? You'll find that for around €300 give or take, and same with the Hexagon PPSH. Everything else I can think of is €400+

€400 for a viva arms sten is a bit much (in my opinion, even though I bought one), but €450/500 for an M1 Garand? They're magnificent and happen to have a complex mechanism (by airsoft standards) for ejecting magazines when empty. Tanaka KAR-98? heh. VFC BAR? Heh ... Lee Enfield? custom build. heh. Bren? custom build. heh. .30 cal not for less than €400 anyway. MG42. heh. etc. etc. etc.

£349 for a PPSH (cursory glance at a single website; roughly €400) isn't all that expensive for an airsoft gun. It's about mid-price range for a reasonable non-clone gun. It's plenty "affordable" but I shall also ask, what is "affordable"?

MerryDespot

Having had the pleasure of blasting off a clip in a M1 garand recently I can completely agree - this is not your standard M4/Ak aeg - and it shows in how it works/fires and puts a big silly grin on your mush while using it.

Flecktarn

Lemming wrote: »

I don't get airsofters sometimes ... I really don't.

You all want somebody to take the R&D effort, manufacturing, etc. to come up with a particular gun, then expect it for clone prices. The only reason that clones are so cheap is that they simply wait for someone else to do all the R&D work for them, then just copy in large volumes for economy of scale. So which comes first? The clone or the 'original'?

On top of that WW2 is a niche market, so the number of units sold will be much less than cranking out an m4 or an AK variant. On top of that, there are very few WW2 guns of any decent quality for less than €300. The thompson, the mp40, d-boys kar-98, and the god-awful one-piece-body mp44 come to mind. The AGM Sten? You'll find that for around €300 give or take, and same with the Hexagon PPSH. Everything else I can think of is €400+


£349 for a PPSH (cursory glance at a single website; roughly €400) isn't all that expensive for an airsoft gun. It's about mid-price range for a reasonable non-clone gun. It's plenty "affordable" but I shall also ask, what is "affordable"?

Sorry Lemming I know well of all the cost involved etc.
I'm afraid I phrased it wrong, it should have said ''Too expensive for me''

Being a minor and not working I find it very hard to get cash for
a new purchase, it basically involves me to sell a gun to buy a gun.
I have never spent than €200 on a single purchase and I don't think from my point of view. For me that is ''affordable.''

I don't think I'll ever spend +€200 on an AEG, I just don't think they're worth that money, once again my opinion.

As I do with most high end guns I wait for a clone to come, some may say that's cheap and scabby but it's all I can afford, I don't have that much income tbh. But yeah I see your point but I'd rather wait til the Chinese cloners come out with the cheaper
option of a high end AEG.

MonkeyGuy

Lemming wrote: »

I don't get airsofters sometimes ... I really don't.

You all want somebody to take the R&D effort, manufacturing, etc. to come up with a particular gun, then expect it for clone prices. The only reason that clones are so cheap is that they simply wait for someone else to do all the R&D work for them, then just copy in large volumes for economy of scale. So which comes first? The clone or the 'original'?

On top of that WW2 is a niche market, so the number of units sold will be much less than cranking out an m4 or an AK variant. On top of that, there are very few WW2 guns of any decent quality for less than €300. The thompson, the mp40, d-boys kar-98, and the god-awful one-piece-body mp44 come to mind. The AGM Sten? You'll find that for around €300 give or take, and same with the Hexagon PPSH. Everything else I can think of is €400+

€400 for a viva arms sten is a bit much (in my opinion, even though I bought one), but €450/500 for an M1 Garand? They're magnificent and happen to have a complex mechanism (by airsoft standards) for ejecting magazines when empty. Tanaka KAR-98? heh. VFC BAR? Heh ... Lee Enfield? custom build. heh. Bren? custom build. heh. .30 cal not for less than €400 anyway. MG42. heh. etc. etc. etc.

£349 for a PPSH (cursory glance at a single website; roughly €400) isn't all that expensive for an airsoft gun. It's about mid-price range for a reasonable non-clone gun. It's plenty "affordable" but I shall also ask, what is "affordable"?

I'm also a minor and it's almost impossible to save that much money up and then spend it all in one go on an airsoft gun. For me, airsoft is more about the cosmetics. I would love an m14 socom with an m1 carbine body (if that's possible) or a JG BAR 10 with a wooden KAR 98 body. In my opinion, the JG BAR 10 is one of the best guns made, not because it outperforms many other guns, but because it's affordable, yet performs... well. And also the fact that people like me can afford it, and when we've saved up the money we can upgrade it with VSR parts. I can't understand how so many of these threads can pop up and yet no company has thought to make more "lower end" airsoft guns from ww2, with real wood. And if you ask me what's my idea of affordable, it means that for as much money as you make, you don't have to part with all of it for one item. When you're mowing lawns for a living every bit of money you can save is helpful.

Inari

It's important to read Lemming's post. The reason the JG Bar 10 exists and is so cheap, is because it is a direct clone of the TM VSR. Tokyo Marui spent the money on research and development, and so charge more. JG copy the design and drop the price.

Real wood as a material is expensive - hence why clones that offer real wood are still on the expensive side of the fence.

To make a low end WWII piece they first have to decide which gun will give them the best sales, then see how they're going to make it, and how can they keep it authentic in order to maximise sales. They then have to go through many prototype models, test the market, advertise the bejesus out of it, and then make a loss on it with the individual rrp by using real wood, just so it's cheap. That's not how business is run unfortunately, so it's still a case of you get what you pay for.

Lemming

To add to what Inari has said; clones clone what they think will sell well with minimum advertising effort; not what a handful of minors have wished for on internet forums (as harsh as that may or may not sound). By the time they've cloned and brought to market, you'll either have changed your mind or gotten a little older and perhaps have a bit more spending power in which case; see step 1.

I'll also ask you MonkeyGuy; what guns tend to be cloned the most and why? The answer will give you your reason why there isn't such a large market for ww2 clones.

Stercus Accidit

If you get one of the AKs built in VFC style, many of them have the correct laminated wood. It is very satisfying to sand and varnish them and get a nice deep colour in the finish. The likes of the AKM and full stock '74 offer plenty of wooden goodness.

Flecktarn

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

If you get one of the AKs built in VFC style, many of them have the correct laminated wood. It is very satisfying to sand and varnish them and get a nice deep colour in the finish. The likes of the AKM and full stock '74 offer plenty of wooden goodness.

Everytime I see on of yours or Puding's in the photo thread I say to myself that is going to be my next buy but alas something else interesting comes up. The kind of finish you get on them look absolutely stunning, it nearly looks like a real steel.

I had an AK47 once with real wood and full metal, stupidly I sold it away

Flecktarn

Inari wrote: »

To make a low end WWII piece they first have to decide which gun will give them the best sales, then see how they're going to make it, and how can they keep it authentic in order to maximise sales. They then have to go through many prototype models, test the market, advertise the bejesus out of it, and then make a loss on it with the individual rrp by using real wood, just so it's cheap. That's not how business is run unfortunately, so it's still a case of you get what you pay for.

But what I'm saying is there are very, very few low end company's that will leap forward and make their own MG42 for example, they want a high end company such as Viva Arms/Tanaka to do all the ground work for them and for just them to pretty much copy the externals/internals.

That's what MonkeyGuy is saying, he want's the high end companies to make one thus leading to the clones to follow suit, them seeing that gap in the market should we say.

Lemming wrote: »

By the time they've cloned and brought to market, you'll either have changed your mind or gotten a little older and perhaps have a bit more spending power in which case; see step 1.

Who's to say I'll change my mind though? When I heard there was a PPSH41 being brought out by Hexagon I tried desperately to save for one, but of course I couldn't gather half the money needed.

I'd still love to get one and if tomorrow JG said they're releasing one I'd buy it ASAP without any qualms. How long has that PPSH41 being out now? Maybe 6 months?

Even if the clone comes out in two years time and hopefully I'll still be into airsoft I'll still have interest in buying it. I've noticed that myself in airsoft, you want a gun to be made and you wait for ever for it come out. I can guarantee you won't lose the passion for it only if the price tag is too heavy.

Lemming wrote: »

I'll also ask you MonkeyGuy; what guns tend to be cloned the most and why? The answer will give you your reason why there isn't such a large market for ww2 clones.

Fair point

Anyways this Winchester looks very nice, but supposed pisses gas due to leaks, a shame really

Lemming

Flecktarn wrote: »

But what I'm saying is there are very, very few low end company's that will leap forward and make their own MG42 for example, they want a high end company such as Viva Arms/Tanaka to do all the ground work for them and for just them to pretty much copy the externals/internals.

That's what MonkeyGuy is saying, he want's the high end companies to make one thus leading to the clones to follow suit, them seeing that gap in the market should we say.

And why on God's green earth should the non-clone (I refuse to use the word "high-end" because that's just a whole other can of worms) companies do that just so that cloners can give MonkeyGuy what he wants? Seriously; why bother with the effort if you know that nobody'll buy it and some lazy tosser looking to make a quick buck (or yen or whatever) will just copy it and make all the money off the back of you breaking your balls.

Who's to say I'll change my mind though? When I heard there was a PPSH41 being brought out by Hexagon I tried desperately to save for one, but of course I couldn't gather half the money needed.

Well, a clone company brought out a cloned, cheaper copy of the PPSH ... so there ye go; take it or leave it.

edit: incorrect, my mistake. There is no clone PPsH

Flecktarn

Lemming wrote: »

And why on God's green earth should the non-clone (I refuse to use the word "high-end" because that's just a whole other can of worms) companies do that just so that cloners can give MonkeyGuy what he wants? Seriously; why bother with the effort if you know that nobody'll buy it and some lazy tosser looking to make a quick buck (or yen or whatever) will just copy it and make all the money off the back of you breaking your balls.

That's a question for the companies CEO's but a stab in the dark guess is that they'll bring it out and maybe a clone of it might not be seen for another 6 months/ year?

And no need to take it as if it's just for MonkeyGuy, plenty of others want the same

Lemming wrote: »

Well, a clone company brought out a cloned, cheaper copy of the PPSH ... so there ye go; take it or leave it.

Any link?

Lemming

Flecktarn wrote: »

Any link?

Ah, my mistake, there are two PPsH offerings but neither is a clone.

MonkeyGuy

Ok I'm sorry if I made it seem like I was specifically looking for a clone, I just don't see why they must be made near perfectly. I would be more than happy using a "KAR 98" which uses VSR mags instead of loading the bullets in like in the Dboys. Simply because I love the look, and in the case of real wood, the feel of the KAR 98. If I wanted an M1 Garand I don't demand that after eight shots there's a loud ping and the magazine pops out. There are differences in all popular selling airsoft guns with their real steel counterparts, most notably, high cap, or even mid cap mags. WW2 airsoft is on the rise and I hate seeing guys with all correct gear, but they're using an m14 because they can't afford a Marushin m1 Garand, or they'd rather the practicality of an m14. My friends has an ACM (I think, clone anyway) m14 with a 300 hundred round high cap mag and a plastic wood effect body. Yet, it is one of the best airsoft guns I've seen for under €200. And that's with a tightbore. How hard could it be for that company to take that m14, change the plastic and some of the metal exterior and make it look like an m1 Garand? I never believed that practicality is much more important than aesthetics in airsoft, but if I were to do a WW2 American loadout, and I wanted a Garand, I'd rather spend €200 euro on an m14 that would serve me well, than dish out the ridiculous money required to by a Marushin Garand, which also costs more for maintenance and gas and I'd be almost afraid to use in case I damaged it. I'm not trying to argue with you Lemming, it's just not all fans of WW2 airsoft can afford those guns, and if I do start making more money I'd be willing to spend the extra on something like the VFC B.A.R. I just hate when guns are made extremely expensive by the fact that they're so realistic, but somewhere along the way they just become impractical.

Also, the Winchester is one of my favourite guns ever, thanks for the link!

Lemming

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

There are differences in all popular selling airsoft guns with their real steel counterparts, most notably, high cap, or even mid cap mags.

I'm sorry, but trying to put forward the argument that magazine capacity (of which there are distinctly different offerings readily available) is equivalent to having different "shells" that you can use in which to readily transplant gun internals is so far wide of any mark of sanity that I really can't take this seriously any more.

MonkeyGuy

I just mean airsoft guns don't have to be perfectly realistic.

Inari

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

I just mean airsoft guns don't have to be perfectly realistic.

But that's the point of them. You made this point yourself. That you'd like an AEG to look like an M1 Garand, rather than an M14...why? Because it's more realistic to the WWII loadout.

NakedDex

Dearest Lemming,

Should you wish to part with that BAR for substantially less than it's worth, I shall take possession of it. Shall we say thruppence ha'penny?

Yours,
Dexington.


In seriousness though, the majority of airsoft devices that incorporate proper real wood in the design (I'm discounting the "real wood" wannabes who use stained MDF or whatever cheap crap they can find), are going to also incorporate some pretty high end engineering with their metal materials and gearbox tech. Not doing so would be akin to Porsche making the body of their newest 911 from cardboard and fitting it with the engine from a 92 Micra, but installing hand-stitched leather seats. There's no point in finishing something with proper wood if it's not deserving of such things.

Take the M14 as an example, since it was mentioned. Cyma and ASG both have M14's available for reasonable prices (I think they actually come from the same factory). Your choices from their range are ABS body in black, or ABS body in "wood effect".
G&G, on the other hand, also do M14's. Their choices, for your handling pleasure, are polymer stock or walnut stock.

Now I'm not starting an argument on clones/rebrands versus high-ends here, but there's no arguing that the G&G version is going to out perform the cheaper counterpart. It'll do this because it's considerably more heavily engineer and the potential buyer wants the best bang for his/her buck. Such engineering needs bring with them an expected degree of external finish however, so there'll be no sight of ABS and certainly none of plastic with a fake wood grain. Simply a high end polymer and an absolutely beautiful solid walnut stock.

And before anyone jumps up and says "OMGWTF! Kalash AK's had proper wood!", I'll concede that they did. However, they also had full steel bodies and were quite a bit pricier than their pot-metal counterparts.

What I'm getting at here is, you pay for what you get. You can't pick up a €150 gun with ABS or pot metal externals and expect a solid oak butt-stock. If your taste has become refined enough to require solid, proper wood, you're probably already looking at items in the €400+ bracket. You may not be able to immediately afford them, but you'll at least know that is where you have to go.




Rover had the option of fake mahogany dashboards in some of their cars. Jaguar just had real mahogany dashboards.

MonkeyGuy

I don't mean the internals shouldn't be up to scratch, but if I pay twenty euro less on a Garand but it doesn't shoot out the mag, I'd gladly do so. More brands should take from the Dboys aks. The internals aren't incredible, but they do the job, and I'd pay the extra money for the wood grips instead of the ABS or whatever plastic it is.

NakedDex

The thing with the DBoys/Kalash AK's is that the ones they use the proper wood on, are the more expensive versions that they do. Full steel bodies and proper laminate wood, cloning the VFC AK's I believe. They run between €200 and €250 each, which isn't bad, but most people I've dealt with aren't willing to pay that and are far more likely to pay the €160-180 for the pot-metal and MDF/ABS versions. The el-cheapo ASG "Beta Spetznaz" is testament to this.

And from what I just read, you haven't fired a Garand. I can tell because, if you did, you'd happily pay that €20, and more besides, to get that stripper clip to jump out. That mechanism is one of the most beautiful and alluring aspects of that rifle. Trust me, if you get a chance to fire one, you'll rapidly change your perspective on it.

Puding

I just mean airsoft guns don't have to be perfectly realistic.

for some people yes they do , for a lot of people there replicas and a target to obtain the closest replica as possible it is why people speed a lot of money obtaining correct marking and accessory's to achieve these accurate replica

internal most devices perform the same or can perform the same with upgrades, it is the externals that define the replica

take two examples you have the asg or cybergun aks and you have things like the LCT or vfc aks, your looking at almost double the price in some cases, if you look in terms of performance then in there role of puttin bb on target they both close in performance and small upgrades can both bring them to the same level, but if we just looked at performance instead of external axcxuracy we might as well call them markets and go the route of paintball

the point with accurate replicas is that you normal sacrifice practically ( can be in terms of weight or cost ), if you have to ask what is the point in the difference between an inko m60 and the a&k m60 then there is no point in arguing the case as you do not get it

know this is not big headed ( i know some people will see it that way ) because im well and truly aware in the cold light of day that tbh my attitude towards accuracy is a little mad, i spend a lot of time and cash tracking down bits and pieces and researching projects, but to me that is the hobby that is airsoft, it is no better or superior to any other aspect of the sport/hobby it is just that, 'another' aspect of airsoft

there is always a balance between realism and practicality in all aspects of airsoft between scenarios rules and equipment and there is nothing wrong with this, it just depends on how far indiviuals want to go with each area, skirmish v milsim, accuracy v practicality

MonkeyGuy

Don't get me wrong I totally understand the allure of realism. It's just when you're on a tight budget, the practicality for a low price is more important. At least, in my experience. If I was making lots of money I'd get a Tankaka or a Marushin, but I don't make lots of money. I love the KAR 98, bu the Tankaka is way too expensive and the Dboys isnt suitable for a skirmish field. Surely Dboys could make their one more practical, or a more practical version, for those of us who want the look, without risking losing shells. And from what I hear, it's not even accurate.

Flecktarn

NakedDex wrote: »

Take the M14 as an example, since it was mentioned. Cyma and ASG both have M14's available for reasonable prices (I think they actually come from the same factory). Your choices from their range are ABS body in black, or ABS body in "wood effect".
G&G, on the other hand, also do M14's. Their choices, for your handling pleasure, are polymer stock or walnut stock.

Now I'm not starting an argument on clones/rebrands versus high-ends here, but there's no arguing that the G&G version is going to out perform the cheaper counterpart. It'll do this because it's considerably more heavily engineer and the potential buyer wants the best bang for his/her buck. Such engineering needs bring with them an expected degree of external finish however, so there'll be no sight of ABS and certainly none of plastic with a fake wood grain. Simply a high end polymer and an absolutely beautiful solid walnut stock.

Obviously, your paying +€350 upwards for your M14, your going to expect it to perform brilliantly and feel/look absolutely amazing.

NakedDex wrote: »

What I'm getting at here is, you pay for what you get. You can't pick up a €150 gun with ABS or pot metal externals and expect a solid oak butt-stock. If your taste has become refined enough to require solid, proper wood, you're probably already looking at items in the €400+ bracket. You may not be able to immediately afford them, but you'll at least know that is where you have to go.

I don't not expect this though, I should have stated in advance that I don't care if it's MDF or not, I still like the feel of wood be it MDF or Mahogany.
Because I know the Mahogany one will come with a €400 price tag, so I just have to take what I can afford.

NakedDex wrote: »

Rover had the option of fake mahogany dashboards in some of their cars. Jaguar just had real mahogany dashboards.

I'd still take the Rover if it was cheaper :pac:

Flecktarn

Lemming wrote: »

I'm sorry, but trying to put forward the argument that magazine capacity (of which there are distinctly different offerings readily available) is equivalent to having different "shells" that you can use in which to readily transplant gun internals is so far wide of any mark of sanity that I really can't take this seriously any more.

Why not? He has a fair point?

Tanaka K98 = Too expensive
Dboys K98 = Not practical

It a decent observation tbh, he just simple want's the Tanaka magazine version type to be ported to the Dboys?

NakedDex

Flecktarn wrote: »

Obviously, your paying +€350 upwards for your M14, your going to expect it to perform brilliantly and feel/look absolutely amazing.

I don't not expect this though, I should have stated in advance that I don't care if it's MDF or not, I still like the feel of wood be it MDF or Mahogany.
Because I know the Mahogany one will come with a €400 price tag, so I just have to take what I can afford.

I'd still take the Rover if it was cheaper :pac:

What I'm getting at is that the complaint often used is not that cheap guns can't have any wood, but rather that cheap guns don't have good wood.
If you know, and are perfectly accepting, that the cheaper option is going to have poor quality wood and are still willing to purchase it, then you are aware of the options and are what I would consider to be an informed and realistic buyer.
The problem lies more so in the masses of people who demand solid walnut stocks, but are unwilling to pay the costs they require.

Your attitude is actually precisely what I'd hope for in someone who wanted a gun with wooden furniture. You know you can't expect teak on a gun made of ABS, but you're accepting of it. The unfortunate fact is, most people don't share your realism.

Lemming

Flecktarn wrote: »

Why not? He has a fair point?

Tanaka K98 = Too expensive
Dboys K98 = Not practical

It a decent observation tbh, he just simple want's the Tanaka magazine version type to be ported to the Dboys?

It's a simplistic, naieve observation. AK magazines and Stanag magazines (being the two main types found; yes I know there are others .... ) can be moved between a great many models and are both small and rather non-complex to make in either hi/mid/lo cap variants because of what they are. Making three different offerings with little real effort that can be used by many times their number in guns is a distinct no-brainer business decision for any company

You cannot seriously compare that with having minimum-effort swappable, different shaped bodies with different dimensions. There are so many variables to consider vs. magazines; never mind the economic practicality of doing it for any companies.

Further, why should Dboys want to run a second model that would effectively be in direct competiton with their existing product? How much sales would one realistically expect to generate from this? If you're trying to cater for people who don't have a lot of purchasing power; sorry to sound cynical, but sales volumes wont be good in general if that's the target demographic.


Ps. Dexington, I'll take your offer and a written statement declaring transfer of ownership of your immortal soul. Think of it as a hire purchase payment plan

Sincerely
Sata Whoops, nearly gave away my daemonic name there
Yours, "Damien"

MerryDespot

NakedDex wrote: »

And from what I just read, you haven't fired a Garand. I can tell because, if you did, you'd happily pay that €20, and more besides, to get that stripper clip to jump out. That mechanism is one of the most beautiful and alluring aspects of that rifle. Trust me, if you get a chance to fire one, you'll rapidly change your perspective on it.

Dex, you're the man responsible for putting the Garand lust in me - after that one run through on that non-working one I was lucky enough to get to fire one. If anyone has played Crackdown on the xbox and woke up at night to the sound of the 'ping' from the orbs you collect, please note that the stripper clip ejection sound is equivalent in airsoft terms. Like crack to junkies...

Lemming

MerryDespot wrote: »

If anyone has played Crackdown on the xbox and woke up at night to the sound of the 'ping' from the orbs you collect, please note that the stripper clip ejection sound is equivalent in airsoft terms. Like crack to junkies...

Everyone who got to fire mine at HRTA looked rather pleased with themselves afterwards. Except Paul who declined to have a go since he'd fired the real thing (barsteward )

Flecktarn

Lemming wrote: »

You cannot seriously compare that with having minimum-effort swappable, different shaped bodies with different dimensions. There are so many variables to consider vs. magazines; never mind the economic practicality of doing it for any companies.

Further, why should Dboys want to run a second model that would effectively be in direct competiton with their existing product? How much sales would one realistically expect to generate from this? If you're trying to cater for people who don't have a lot of purchasing power; sorry to sound cynical, but sales volumes wont be good in general if that's the target demographic.

Just make a magwell the same on each gun, as you said it's already happened with multiple guns .ie the Viva Arms Sten taking AGM MP40 mags? To increase sales I suppose. It's not as if it'll only be people who don't splash out on the guns, people who buy high-end would also buy it?

Why wouldn't they? If someone has a VSR/BAR 10 for their regular loadout and spare magazines then they could also skirmish a Kar98 due to having multiple magazines already?

Lemming

Flecktarn wrote: »

Just make a magwell the same on each gun, as you said it's already happened with multiple guns .ie the Viva Arms Sten taking AGM MP40 mags?

Errrr, you're aware that the real Sten was compatible with mp40 mags right, and deliberately so?

Now, onto magwells. Whose magwell do we use? Why the offering from company A over company B? Whatever about further discussion on "just" using the same magwell on each gun, the above question ends any and all discussion on the subject because it would be an utterly unworkable cluster-f*ck. Does anyone here get the reference when I say "beta-max" ? ...

Flecktarn

Lemming wrote: »

Errrr, you're aware that the real Sten was compatible with mp40 mags right, and deliberately so?

Didn't know that, same principle though.

Lemming wrote: »

Now, onto magwells. Whose magwell do we use?

VSR/BAR 10, two of the most common airsoft sniper rifles.

Lemming wrote: »

Why the offering from company A over company B?

Competition, consumer confidence in certain brands over others etc.

Lemming wrote: »

Whatever about further discussion on "just" using the same magwell on each gun, the above question ends any and all discussion on the subject because it would be an utterly unworkable cluster-f*ck.

Right yeah.

Lemming wrote: »

Does anyone here get the reference when I say "beta-max" ? ...

? Do explain?

Lemming

Flecktarn wrote: »

Didn't know that, same principle though.

No, not really since the real-steel version was built to be a) cheap as chips and b)resistance fighters in occupied Europe could just liberate mp40 mags.

VSR/BAR 10, two of the most common airsoft sniper rifles.

Ah, so now it's about KAR98 wannabes. But what about MonkeyGuy and his m14 "counts as" M1 Garand? You've just cut him adrift in insisting that it's all about the bolt action.

So which is it? You want the airsoft companies to drop everything and make something that suits *you*, or you want some sort of innovative universal wonder-kit to cater to all but don't want to pay for it.

Competition, consumer confidence in certain brands over others etc.

HO ... HO .... HO, you haven't a scoobies about the world of commerce then, or how companies actually think and/or operate. In that sentence - using the very unfortunate and amusingly ironic choice of words that you have - you've just proven you haven't a clue what the significance of the name "Betamax" means.

Edit: You've also completely missed the point of the question I was raising. Namely, whose magwell design do you choose and consequently enforce on other companies. HOW do you enforce it? Welcome back to step oine on the naieve-users-guide-to-the-world-of-business.

? Do explain?

You have the internet, figure it out. The implication is simple, the reasons varied and some quite complex. Welcome to teh world of business and the fickle nature of consumers ...

NakedDex

Lemming wrote: »

Does anyone here get the reference when I say "beta-max" ? ...

Flecktarn wrote: »

? Do explain?

He's implying that forcing an arbitrary standard made by one company across an entire industry will go the same way, ie; disasterously.

To be honest, I've never once heard of anyone having an issue with airsoft magazine compatibility. There's an acceptance that different magazines will have different shapes and sizes for different reasons, and trying to change that is the equivalent of waking up in the morning and being told that everyone now has to drive on the right hand side of the road.
We're now all stuck with cars designed for the wrong side, and we have to replace them because someone decided it fits us in with the rest of the world in a better way.

In other words, it's not going to happen because it makes not practical sense. Theoretical yes, but practical, no.

TerrorFirmer

Flecktarn wrote: »

then they could also skirmish a Kar98 due to having multiple magazines already?

Kar98K with mags....shudder.

I do find it rather annoying that there's that gulf in the market though. The Tanaka one is way too expensive, the Dboys one is way too unreliable. It's not the soft wood or materials that'd bother me, it's the mediocre mechanism. If there was a 98K with better workings but the same externals, available for, say, something like 220, I'd be all over it.

I also like real wood, but I'm not fussy about the quality of said wood, as long as it's basically not ABS. There are quite a few AEGs that do fall into that category of a half way point (as in, affordable to the budget conscious user), like Kalash and even CYMA etc.

MonkeyGuy

Lemming wrote: »

Further, why should Dboys want to run a second model that would effectively be in direct competiton with their existing product? How much sales would one realistically expect to generate from this? If you're trying to cater for people who don't have a lot of purchasing power; sorry to sound cynical, but sales volumes wont be good in general if that's the target demographic.
Sata Whoops, nearly gave away my daemonic name there
Yours, "Damien"

They wouldn't be in direct competion, the currrent model would be for collectors who like the realism, and the practical model would be for airsofters with a low budget. And I don't know how this whole one company mag thing started, Dboys could make their own mags?

Flecktarn

Lemming wrote: »

Ah, so now it's about KAR98 wannabes. But what about MonkeyGuy and his m14 "counts as" M1 Garand? You've just cut him adrift in insisting that it's all about the bolt action.

So which is it? You want the airsoft companies to drop everything and make something that suits *you*, or you want some sort of innovative universal wonder-kit to cater to all but don't want to pay for it.

Jesus Christ man it's not as if I want it only for me. I don't want the airsoft companies to make something specially for me, get off your high horse. I'm just question about using mags in multiple guns.

This is the kind of attitude I'm getting off you; ''oh look at this n00b with only €200 to spend on a gun who knows nothing about companies, how uBeR''. I'm really sick of your patronizing posts all over this forum, it's gotten quite old.

Lemming wrote: »

HO ... HO .... HO, you haven't a scoobies about the world of commerce then, or how companies actually think and/or operate. In that sentence - using the very unfortunate and amusingly ironic choice of words that you have - you've just proven you haven't a clue what the significance of the name "Betamax" means.

HAR HAR HAR, as you said your im only a minor for wishing for certain guns to be made on an internet forum. Aren't you great you know what Betamax means before I did, bravo! What would I know about marketing ? :rolleyes:

Lemming wrote: »

Edit: You've also completely missed the point of the question I was raising. Namely, whose magwell design do you choose and consequently enforce on other companies. HOW do you enforce it? Welcome back to step oine on the naieve-users-guide-to-the-world-of-business.

Well sorry if I do not know, I have explained some of that above, it was only a suggestion, one can dream :rolleyes:

Lemming wrote: »

You have the internet, figure it out. The implication is simple, the reasons varied and some quite complex. Welcome to teh world of business and the fickle nature of consumers ...

I'd rather not tbh, I frankly couldn't care.