The general standard of rehearsal rooms in Dublin

Rigsby

Recently, while waiting for fellow band members to arrive for a practice session, I had time to take in my surroundings. Toilets were almost third world, no loo paper or soap, and the towel had not been changed since dinosaurs roamed the area. The interior of the building itself was fairly rundown. The price per hour was anything but third world though. These places are like saunas in summer and ice boxes in winter. Then it dawned on me that this was basically par for the course for most other rehearsal rooms I have been in. The only reason I can think of why this should be, is that the owners know that generally a band cant practice anywhere and therefore are complacent when it comes to standards. I wont mention the number of times that amps have failed. I am a little more understanding here, because they probably get a lot of abuse.


I do realise that there are probably lots of decent standard rehearsal rooms around Dublin, it's just that I have been unlucky enough not to come across them.

MilanPan!c

We've been trying various ones for a few months (I even started a thread about this recently)... So far, they're all about the same...

We're about to switch to a private room I think... for this reason.

Yrag2E

yeah I suppose it all depends on where you go or where you've been.

There is some pretty savage places about - Troubadour, Muzzle, Jam Factory for sessions. Not amazing but above standard for sure. The first two are pretty cheap

Volt for full time

I suppose when you look at these places, they wouldn't make a fortune and in some cases are just their to facilitate. Start up and running costs must be bank busting. Yeah maybe if you were harry crosby you could run one on the profits of everything else you own but as a start up, the banks don't lend and no investor is interested in making a substantial investment for a crap return.

Amps, Kits, PA's etc etc that stuff is not cheap and especially for half decent equipment. Sound Proofing, interior, exterior. Electricity, heating, rent, city rates, phone, repairs, replacements. Bands aren't willing to pay the extra for the luxuries in my opinion, everyone is looking for the cheapest and that comes at a price

If you are a full time band you should probably have your own place but there is absolutely nothing in place to facilitate this.

There should be government interest in arts in Ireland.

Yrag2E

that's my rant. Go to London and you'll find hundreds of them but this is Dublin and every one is out to screw everyone else.

I think there is promise in the newer places. The original rehearsals are going down, they just don't care because they had no reason to. They might get in shape now there is a few more contenders....

Waking-Dreams

Rigsby wrote: »

The only reason I can think of why this should be, is that the owners know that generally a band cant practice anywhere and therefore are complacent when it comes to standards. I wont mention the number of times that amps have failed. I am a little more understanding here, because they probably get a lot of abuse.

You have your fellow musicians who use these places to thank for busted equipment just as much as the owners.

Have you ever run a rehearsal studio? Know how much it costs? What the over heads are? How, when you have a quiet week means having little money to pay for equipment repairs, etc?

I agree rehearsal studios are in need of a good facelift but that costs money and I'm not sure how much money you think a facility makes, but I'll bet it's a lot higher than what is the reality for studios.

This is taken from another thread but it's worth repeating.

I'm not pointing the finger at the businessmen who run the rehearsal rooms and expecting them to dip into their pockets and improve their facilities overnight because in many cases the overheads are just so expensive (rent for a commercial premises, ESB, staff wages, insurance, phone/internet, equipment replacements) that they can probably just about afford to get by and provide a service to begin with.

And, when you think about it, who damages the equipment in the first place? The musicians themselves. It's a circular problem where the studio doesn't want to kit out the place with top-notch gear because it will be abused and where an element of the musicians abuse the lesser grade gear because they devalue it, due to it not being their own and because it looks like it has been around the block a number of times. I mean, who steals cymbal felts off the drum kits that the studio has to resort to putting duct tape on the stands? And these same people probably nod their heads in agreement when others complain about the quality of band rehearsal rooms. The mind boggles.

I spoke to the guys in one well-known Dublin city studio a good few years ago when I was still going there, and they said there wasn't much money to be made in running a rehearsal space, or not as much as people would like to think. A while back I drew up a business plan of my own to see if I could set up a facility where I live for local bands but I did the math and quickly discovered it would require a lot of capital to get off the ground. Plus, it's a very risky endeavour. You would need some decent funding at least for security. Bands these days are expected to pay around €60-€75 for a full back line, but would rather pay €35-€50 instead if they had a choice. Sadly, unless a studio is booked up all of the time, running at near full capacity, that kind of business model just wouldn't make economic sense.

Fun with numbers:

Say a rehearsal studio has 6 rooms, and is open 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, with four 3-hour slots in their daily schedule. Each 3-hour session works out at €50 for a full backline.

That means that if the studio is at maximum capacity; 24 bands play in 6 rooms in a one day period, the studio makes a gross profit of €1,200 per day. That's only a potential so it's probably not that busy in most places. Even if the studio was able to generate a maximum total of €8,400 per week, it's theoretically possible but probably never happens save for once in a blue moon.

One can only speculate how much business a rehearsal room brings in, but I'll hazard a guess and say it's only half of that amount; €4,200 per week, where the studio sees 12 bands per day (Saturdays and Sundays could be busier days but these even out on the quiet weeknights).

So, with €4,200 per week, the studio has to deduct the following: rent for a commercial premises, ESB, staff wages, insurance, phone/internet, and then any equipment replacements.

Some commercial properties with a lot of sq. ft space can be as high as €2,000 per week, then say a 3-man staff could be between €1,200-€1,500. Which leaves just €1,000 to cover all the other weekly bills, whatever they may be. It's doable, but that's counting on getting 12 bands per day, or 84 per week.

Rigsby

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

You have your fellow musicians who use these places to thank for busted equipment just as much as the owners.

Have you ever run a rehearsal studio? Know how much it costs? What the over heads are? How, when you have a quiet week means having little money to pay for equipment repairs, etc?

I agree rehearsal studios are in need of a good facelift but that costs money and I'm not sure how much money you think a facility makes, but I'll bet it's a lot higher than what is the reality for studios.

This is taken from another thread but it's worth repeating.

I hear you and basically agree. I'm not looking for the Hilton or the Conrad (just as well ), but surely replacing towels, soap and toilet paper is a basic necessity and not going to make them bankrupt.

I have already acknowledged the situation with regards to amps and accept that other users are to blame for this.

artvandulet

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I'm not pointing the finger at the businessmen who run the rehearsal rooms and expecting them to dip into their pockets and improve their facilities overnight because in many cases the overheads are just so expensive (rent for a commercial premises, ESB, staff wages, insurance, phone/internet, equipment replacements) that they can probably just about afford to get by and provide a service to begin with.

And, when you think about it, who damages the equipment in the first place? The musicians themselves. It's a circular problem where the studio doesn't want to kit out the place with top-notch gear because it will be abused and where an element of the musicians abuse the lesser grade gear because they devalue it, due to it not being their own and because it looks like it has been around the block a number of times. I mean, who steals cymbal felts off the drum kits that the studio has to resort to putting duct tape on the stands? And these same people probably nod their heads in agreement when others complain about the quality of band rehearsal rooms. The mind boggles.

I spoke to the guys in one well-known Dublin city studio a good few years ago when I was still going there, and they said there wasn't much money to be made in running a rehearsal space, or not as much as people would like to think. A while back I drew up a business plan of my own to see if I could set up a facility where I live for local bands but I did the math and quickly discovered it would require a lot of capital to get off the ground. Plus, it's a very risky endeavour. You would need some decent funding at least for security. Bands these days are expected to pay around €60-€75 for a full back line, but would rather pay €35-€50 instead if they had a choice. Sadly, unless a studio is booked up all of the time, running at near full capacity, that kind of business model just wouldn't make economic sense.

Fun with numbers:

Say a rehearsal studio has 6 rooms, and is open 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, with four 3-hour slots in their daily schedule. Each 3-hour session works out at €50 for a full backline.

That means that if the studio is at maximum capacity; 24 bands play in 6 rooms in a one day period, the studio makes a gross profit of €1,200 per day. That's only a potential so it's probably not that busy in most places. Even if the studio was able to generate a maximum total of €8,400 per week, it's theoretically possible but probably never happens save for once in a blue moon.

One can only speculate how much business a rehearsal room brings in, but I'll hazard a guess and say it's only half of that amount; €4,200 per week, where the studio sees 12 bands per day (Saturdays and Sundays could be busier days but these even out on the quiet weeknights).

So, with €4,200 per week, the studio has to deduct the following: rent for a commercial premises, ESB, staff wages, insurance, phone/internet, and then any equipment replacements.

Some commercial properties with a lot of sq. ft space can be as high as €2,000 per week, then say a 3-man staff could be between €1,200-€1,500. Which leaves just €1,000 to cover all the other weekly bills, whatever they may be. It's doable, but that's counting on getting 12 bands per day, or 84 per week.

You're missing one massive cost with the above. VAT. All 21% of it!

MilanPan!c

artvandulet wrote: »

You're missing one massive cost with the above. VAT. All 21% of it!

OT, but it's Vandelay..

Yrag2E

MilanPan!c wrote: »

OT, but it's Vandelay..

what does this mean?

artvandulet

MilanPan!c wrote: »

OT, but it's Vandelay..

I realised that a few years back, but was too late

Anyway, I prefer the original french spelling.

MilanPan!c

Yrag2E wrote: »

what does this mean?

It's a comment about nothing.

Carl-M

There's a place called Dedsound in JFK Industrial park, Just off the Longmile road. They're fantastic facilities (Even a room called The Stage so you can rehearse with lights etc for choreography or whatever..)

There's free bottled water in the fridge and if you use it more than once a wekk you get a discount. We rehearse there regularly. It's owned and run by a musician FOR musicians. I can PM the number if anyone wants, don't know if its ok to post up numbers on the forum.

NO I DON'T WORK THERE NOR AM I AFFILIATED WITH IT.

artvandulet

MilanPan!c wrote: »

It's a comment about nothing.

As an importer/exporter, I know about vat.

MilanPan!c

artvandulet wrote: »

As an importer/exporter, I know about vat.

They don't call you Koko for nothing.

artvandulet

:D

/hijacking thread.

Yrag2E

well he is right about VAT...any you are paying..21% of it goes straight to the government.

Nice to see Dedsound jump on board

DOTHEDOG

the price of rehersal rooms in dublin is a complete rip off,i have rehersad basically everywhere in dublin over the last 20 years,the last time a i did reherse was 60 euro but dunno how much it is now

Just out of interest, after looking at how much overheads cost, how much would do you think is a fair price to pay?

60 for 3 hours seems reasonable. 5 an hour per band member. They'd spend more in a pub!

MilanPan!c

Papa Smut wrote: »

Just out of interest, after looking at how much overheads cost, how much would do you think is a fair price to pay?

60 for 3 hours seems reasonable. 5 an hour per band member. They'd spend more in a pub!

much much much rather pay more for something better... course we have 5 people, so...

Oh, I agree. There's just a lot of whining and I would love to know what people think is a "reasonable" price. What would you consider, considering there's 5 of you in the band as well?

MilanPan!c

Papa Smut wrote: »

Oh, I agree. There's just a lot of whining and I would love to know what people think is a "reasonable" price. What would you consider, considering there's 5 of you in the band as well?

80-10 is there was a decent PA, reasonable facilities (nothing swank, but not scummy) and a wider selection of gear.

One thing I DON'T get is this, in London I can easily go to a rehearsal space and get just a cab, no extra cost, instead on a crap combo... that way, I can just bring my head, get essentially my same sound, and not have to lug a cab around town...

Seems like, if some spaces brought that in they'd SAVE money (pretty hard to destroy a cab) and the standard of bands would go up...

at least a little bit...

Yrag2E

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Seems like, if some spaces brought that in they'd SAVE money (pretty hard to destroy a cab) and the standard of bands would go up...

we know now who is breaking all the equipment. Cabs can be wrecked easily..plugging a 150W amp in a 100W Cab will blow the speakers and you need a compatible cab - head.....hooking up a high OHM head to a low ohm cab will power surge the speakers. It won't happen straight away but a few people doing this will just destroy it

Plenty of places offering the extra bit. Troubador/Muzzle/Dedsound are all offering rental amps/cabs. There is so many different amps with different sounds, it could be nearly impossible to cater for every one.

It is not hard to do

http://www.ruared.ie/musicroom.html this is what you are after but with equipment which they seem to lack. It is generic as **** and the sound sucks balls but there is clean toilets and hand dryers.

I'm only defensive about this because so many people have no respect for these places and they all end up in a state and then give out about them being so bad. Have jammed in most places in town from when they were fresh to the state they are in now and it is down to bands not giving a f*ck about the rooms or the equipment. Price is always brought into the equation too, even if one person says they'd pay 100...1 out of 100 bands wouldnt.

MilanPan!c

Yrag2E wrote: »

we know now who is breaking all the equipment. Cabs can be wrecked easily..plugging a 150W amp in a 100W Cab will blow the speakers and you need a compatible cab - head.....hooking up a high OHM head to a low ohm cab will power surge the speakers. It won't happen straight away but a few people doing this will just destroy it

Plenty of places offering the extra bit. Troubador/Muzzle/Dedsound are all offering rental amps/cabs. There is so many different amps with different sounds, it could be nearly impossible to cater for every one.

It is not hard to do

http://www.ruared.ie/musicroom.html this is what you are after but with equipment which they seem to lack. It is generic as **** and the sound sucks balls but there is clean toilets and hand dryers.

I'm only defensive about this because so many people have no respect for these places and they all end up in a state and then give out about them being so bad. Have jammed in most places in town from when they were fresh to the state they are in now and it is down to bands not giving a f*ck about the rooms or the equipment. Price is always brought into the equation too, even if one person says they'd pay 100...1 out of 100 bands wouldnt.

I know that, I'm not looking to make all places be nice, have good gear, etc., I just want one...

I never saw any cabs in Muzzle btw. ???

I'm trying Jam this week, then maybe Troubadour next...

I totally understand re: cabs etc., but the few places we rehearsed in London would basically do a 1 minute sanity check of the amp head and give you an appropriate cab.

There's not that much variety and as long as you're not taking the piss, what's the danger?

So, nicer place, with more gear, but more expensive, I'm sold.

Yrag2E

3 cabs on this page
http://www.muzzlemusic.ie/home/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=34&Itemid=62

yeah thats true..a lot of places have lock ups so you can throw your own gear in...better option

MilanPan!c

Yrag2E wrote: »

3 cabs on this page
http://www.muzzlemusic.ie/home/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=34&Itemid=62

yeah thats true..a lot of places have lock ups so you can throw your own gear in...better option

Sorry, I mean, I've been in the place and looked at the gear on offer and didn't see any, or else I woulda used it.

Maybe it need to be booked in advance?

Who knows.

Anyway, thanks for the heads up!

FSWU

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I know that, I'm not looking to make all places be nice, have good gear, etc., I just want one...

I never saw any cabs in Muzzle btw. ???

I'm trying Jam this week, then maybe Troubadour next...

I totally understand re: cabs etc., but the few places we rehearsed in London would basically do a 1 minute sanity check of the amp head and give you an appropriate cab.

There's not that much variety and as long as you're not taking the piss, what's the danger?

So, nicer place, with more gear, but more expensive, I'm sold.

I agree 100% with you there, man. I was jammin in London over the last while too, was in this place called the joint in the sound stage room, was £22.50 an hour! Expensive but worth it!
The gear was fantastic, I was going through an Ampeg 8x10 with svt pro! Ludwig kit, Fender Deville amps, and to top it off, theres 3 wedge mixes across front stage and a drum wedge mix, controlled by its own stage mix desk on stage right! Theres a FOH too, desk is feckin ginormous!
Heres a link to the room (I dont work for the place, just an extremely chuffed customer!)

http://www.thejoint.org.uk/studios/sound-stage-studio/

How i wish there was a place like that in Dublin, id never leave

But i suppose Londons much bigger and hence a lot more musicians and customers so a lot more money can go into a rehearsal room

MilanPan!c

FSWU wrote: »

I agree 100% with you there, man. I was jammin in London over the last while too, was in this place called the joint in the sound stage room, was £22.50 an hour! Expensive but worth it!
The gear was fantastic, I was going through an Ampeg 8x10 with svt pro! Ludwig kit, Fender Deville amps, and to top it off, theres 3 wedge mixes across front stage and a drum wedge mix, controlled by its own stage mix desk on stage right! Theres a FOH too, desk is feckin ginormous!
Heres a link to the room (I dont work for the place, just an extremely chuffed customer!)

http://www.thejoint.org.uk/studios/sound-stage-studio/

How i wish there was a place like that in Dublin, id never leave

But i suppose Londons much bigger and hence a lot more musicians and customers so a lot more money can go into a rehearsal room

It's nuts really. Bands are able to get a LOT tighter pretty quickly due to the better standard of gear.

I pretty much hated living in London, but as a musician, it was pretty sweet.

That being said, if a place did set up that had top gear and charged say 25/hour to use it, we'd be there.

I can understand as a rule of thumb, **** gets destroyed, but set aside a few proper rooms, just a few, and people will be fighting over them.

DOTHEDOG

exactly what i mean,some places do be in bits,no air at all maybe if there was even air then maybe 60 to 70 euro between 6 is fine but you are paying for a room not a dog box and proper equipment,some of the stuff don't even work

MilanPan!c

DOTHEDOG wrote: »

exactly what i mean,some places do be in bits,no air at all maybe if there was even air then maybe 60 to 70 euro between 6 is fine but you are paying for a room not a dog box and proper equipment,some of the stuff don't even work

In a few of the places I've been in, very little of it worked properly.

Anyway, that's kinda the norm.

I hope that someone in the rehearsal rooms business is reading this and PMs the few interested parties, people willing to pay more to get more...

[hint hint]

DOTHEDOG

hhmmm i might even get onto a few places and leave a link on their websits lol

MilanPan!c

DOTHEDOG wrote: »

hhmmm i might even get onto a few places and leave a link on their websits lol

hahahahaha...

Rigsby

Yrag2E wrote: »

I'm only defensive about this because so many people have no respect for these places and they all end up in a state and then give out about them being so bad. Have jammed in most places in town from when they were fresh to the state they are in now and it is down to bands not giving a f*ck about the rooms or the equipment. Price is always brought into the equation too, even if one person says they'd pay 100...1 out of 100 bands wouldnt.

I totally agree that people dont have respect for the rooms, equipment, or the band coming in after them. I dont know how many times our band have spent a few minutes cleaning up after the previous one, before we got started. Maybe a solution would be to charge a deposit on top of the price, which would be returned after a session, on inspection of the room and it's equipment. This deposit is charged on practically everything else you can think of that is let out for hire. Why should rehearsal rooms and it's equipment be different ? People might have a bit more respect if they think they are going to be out of pocket. Granted, it would take a bit more time and effort on behalf of the staff, but would be worth it all round IMO.

GazPat

Lads when you guys are comparing London to Dublin also remember

1 Population - Lot more people there, lot more bands easier to make money

2 More money means you can invest more in the room, gear, general stuff.

3 Dublin is not London.... London has always been streets ahead of Dublin in the music scene, If any Dublin Studio was to put a lot of money into their rooms and gear it wouldn't be viable..

People are too picky.. There will always be something for people to complain about it's human nature.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was also thinking about setting up a studio outside of the city (Still am)
it's a lot of work for one person and Im having trouble finding investors (OR bank loans) as I am going it alone. Anyone interested ??

I was thinking of putting in great equipment and a v good backline etc and have the place more like a musicians haven rather than what we get today. I am raring to go and have family members who are builders and can easily do the building work, soundproofing etc.

as stated here and by myself it will be very hard to make money initially but from what people are saying here is they would pay the extra for the quality.

What do you guys think.. Also the location im thinking is perfect, there would be huge demand for people wanting to practice in this location..

Don't want to give the location away incase anybody beats me to it...

Rigsby

GazPat wrote: »

Lads when you guys are comparing London to Dublin also remember

1 Population - Lot more people there, lot more bands easier to make money

2 More money means you can invest more in the room, gear, general stuff.

3 Dublin is not London.... London has always been streets ahead of Dublin in the music scene, If any Dublin Studio was to put a lot of money into their rooms and gear it wouldn't be viable..

People are too picky.. There will always be something for people to complain about it's human nature.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was also thinking about setting up a studio outside of the city (Still am)
it's a lot of work for one person and Im having trouble finding investors (OR bank loans) as I am going it alone. Anyone interested ??

I was thinking of putting in great equipment and a v good backline etc and have the place more like a musicians haven rather than what we get today. I am raring to go and have family members who are builders and can easily do the building work, soundproofing etc.

as stated here and by myself it will be very hard to make money initially but from what people are saying here is they would pay the extra for the quality.

What do you guys think.. Also the location im thinking is perfect, there would be huge demand for people wanting to practice in this location..

Don't want to give the location away incase anybody beats me to it...

I agree about comparing to London. In my original post I was "picky" about the sanitary conditions in most places I have been in. IMO, there are no excuses here under any circumstances.

GazPat

Rigsby wrote: »

I agree about comparing to London. In my original post I was "picky" about the sanitary conditions in most places I have been in. IMO, there are no excuses here under any circumstances.

Definately, lets get real about it. Me and I guess a lot of other people are the same but im very picky about going to the toilet in public places, unless it's an absolute nesscesity I will not go, I presume people know im not talking about a P .. If i went into a place and the loo was in bad condition and no paper and hand towels or soap I would not go back there, for the simple reason that basic standards are not being met, how are you supposed to feel comfortable if you are thinking about trying not to want to go the jax.. Just not good imho ..

MilanPan!c

GazPat wrote: »

Lads when you guys are comparing London to Dublin also remember

1 Population - Lot more people there, lot more bands easier to make money

2 More money means you can invest more in the room, gear, general stuff.

3 Dublin is not London.... London has always been streets ahead of Dublin in the music scene, If any Dublin Studio was to put a lot of money into their rooms and gear it wouldn't be viable..

People are too picky.. There will always be something for people to complain about it's human nature.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was also thinking about setting up a studio outside of the city (Still am)
it's a lot of work for one person and Im having trouble finding investors (OR bank loans) as I am going it alone. Anyone interested ??

I was thinking of putting in great equipment and a v good backline etc and have the place more like a musicians haven rather than what we get today. I am raring to go and have family members who are builders and can easily do the building work, soundproofing etc.

as stated here and by myself it will be very hard to make money initially but from what people are saying here is they would pay the extra for the quality.

What do you guys think.. Also the location im thinking is perfect, there would be huge demand for people wanting to practice in this location..

Don't want to give the location away incase anybody beats me to it...

Outside of the City?

Welll... I live on the south side... so if I had to drive over an hour, or even 45 minutes, I might be disinclined... that being said, if it REALLY was awesome, I might very seriously consider it...

GazPat

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Outside of the City?

Welll... I live on the south side... so if I had to drive over an hour, or even 45 minutes, I might be disinclined... that being said, if it REALLY was awesome, I might very seriously consider it...

Im on the southside aswel. there is nothing out here and if there is it's not very good if nobody knows about it..

If I get it up and running hopefully, It will be the best space in dublin to jam, guarenteed.. I know what I want it to be like and if I know this is not possible I will not do it because there is enough mediocre places out there already and I for one know another one like that will make no difference and that will lead to the business failing.. imo

MilanPan!c

GazPat wrote: »

Im on the southside aswel. there is nothing out here and if there is it's not very good if nobody knows about it..

If I get it up and running hopefully, It will be the best space in dublin to jam, guarenteed.. I know what I want it to be like and if I know this is not possible I will not do it because there is enough mediocre places out there already and I for one know another one like that will make no difference and that will lead to the business failing.. imo

Well, look, if you get it up and running I will DEF try it.

Please post back in this forum (though not necessarily this thread) if it happens.

Thanks!

Rigsby

GazPat wrote: »

Definately, lets get real about it. Me and I guess a lot of other people are the same but im very picky about going to the toilet in public places, unless it's an absolute nesscesity I will not go, I presume people know im not talking about a P .. If i went into a place and the loo was in bad condition and no paper and hand towels or soap I would not go back there, for the simple reason that basic standards are not being met, how are you supposed to feel comfortable if you are thinking about trying not to want to go the jax.. Just not good imho ..

I agree 100%, but as I said in my origanal post, these are the conditions that I have found in most places I have been to. If I was not to go back to them, then the only other option would be to give up rehearsing, which would be ridiculous. Surely it' not rocket science ( and not going to break the bank ) to have someone inspect the toilets, say twice daily, to make sure everything is as it should be.

GazPat

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Well, look, if you get it up and running I will DEF try it.

Please post back in this forum (though not necessarily this thread) if it happens.

Thanks!

Will do.. cheers man

Malice

I'd like to point out that the issues identified on this thread are not unique to Dublin. In fact Rigsby could have been describing the same situation for pretty much every rehearsal room I've ever used in Ireland.

With regard to the crap/broken gear issue, I've often wondered why places don't operate some sort of a sign in/out facility and maybe take credit card details so that there is some accountability if something does get broken or stolen.

Waking-Dreams

I wonder how many band members even own a credit card, nevermind putting it on the line incase the shoddy gear they use just happens to go caput when the use it that session. Cue all the, "Em, well, it was broken before I used it, like" line of bargaining, but to be honest, I would sympathise. I've broken a few drum skins that were battered to pieces. Should I have to shell out for a new skin considering every other drummer who pummelled the life out it got there before me? Hardly fair. I have donated old recording studio skins to rehearsal rooms but I don't know how many other drummers do this.

And, if a studio required charging credit cards as some kind of collateral, how many bands would simply take their business elsewhere? Bye bye business.

No easy solutions either way.

drumdrum

Ive been to tons of rehearsal spaces (both at home and abroad) over my playing time (wish I could call it a career but....ah well.... :pac::pac:)

anyways, as said before, theres no point in comparing Dublin rehearsal spaces to London or elsewhere spaces. Too many variables.

I also think that the stage of the band, and the living location of the members definitely dictate what works for a band. A professional band who jams more than once a week would probably benefit most in their own rehearsal space, whilst a new "lets jam every so often" type of band would obviously be best placed in a pay-per-session place. With that said, if the band are spread out all over the place, then a pay-per-session rehearsal room can be the best option.

some observations Ive seen with rehearsal rooms I feel I can best make in the form of...

(dun dun dun duuunnnn! )
CASE STUDIES!! :pac::cool:

Case Study 1: Blackpitts
I used to jam in Blackpitts when it opened up years ago, and at the start it was decent enough. The gear was new, the rooms were clean and the staff cared about the place. When the place got more popular, about a year later the place started to go into decline. My then band broke up so didn't go back there until about another year later with a different band and I gotta say the place was in bits. The drum skins were dimpled and they sounded crap, the amps sounded really crackly and only 1 PA monitor was working. The new staff there were really blase about their job and basically were douches!!

Basically we didn't go back there again (nor would I again to be honest). It only takes 1 bad experience to lose a customer forever and word-of-mouth in the Dublin music scene (especially as its such a small scene) can make or break these places.

Case Study 2: Muzzle Music
Im sure most of us here have heard of these guys by now and IMO, they are the best pay-per-session place around with regards to money-to-quality ratio. The place is only about a year old or so, but at least the place seems to have its stuff in order. The drums sound ok, the basic amps they provide work and although they are cheap amps, you at least have the option to augment your rehearsal by renting a better amp for a €5. Basically the options are there and there are even a few lock-ups available although the last time I inquired into one, there was a pretty long waiting list for them. More importantly, the staff seem to be driven and determined to keep the place in decent order. Ok, its not perfect, but then again for €50 a session its not going to be. IMO, a couple of the rooms are too.....square which means that the sound can bounce around and basically sound a bit....bass heavy / "boomy" for lack of a better word.

What I think will be interesting to see is the place in a years time and to see if the owners are really committed to looking after the place. The last time I was there, the drum skins were in an ok condition, and I had no problems with the amps provided.
Ive tried Troubador as well and I have to say that they are a VERY close second to Muzzle. For me, its a bit of a stupid thing really, but its the mirrors in the room that kind of put me off. I can definitely see the benefit of them, but as I said its a personal choice....nothing against the place.

Case Study 3: Own place
In my view, if you are dead serious about your band and are aiming to go professional with a CD tour etc, then this is the only way to go. It depends though on the quality of the room and the gear. More than likely you will be using your own gear which is best as you get to control your own sound a lot better and can therefore better translate it to the live stage or the recording studio. Obviously, if you are sharing a room with other bands then you need to be extra careful about gear etc.
Costs can vary per place (usually due to its location) and essentially its not dissimilar to looking for living accommodation. Obviously if you can get a room set up properly in a band members house or whatever then you are sorted. Im NOT talking about most young bands who cart over a couple amps to the drummers bedroom or whatever, but I mean having one room cleared out with only the band instruments in it that allows for enough space to move without being on top of one another. Ok, this may seem like a....."fantasy"-ish scenario, but I've seen it done to generally decent levels of success, although you do need a lot of luck with neighbors though if you live in a residential area.



This (obviously!) is just one mans opinion based upon his experiences with bands over the last 15 years or so, so your experience will vary!

Rigsby

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I wonder how many band members even own a credit card, nevermind putting it on the line incase the shoddy gear they use just happens to go caput when the use it that session. Cue all the, "Em, well, it was broken before I used it, like" line of bargaining, but to be honest, I would sympathise. I've broken a few drum skins that were battered to pieces. Should I have to shell out for a new skin considering every other drummer who pummelled the life out it got there before me? Hardly fair. I have donated old recording studio skins to rehearsal rooms but I don't know how many other drummers do this.

And, if a studio required charging credit cards as some kind of collateral, how many bands would simply take their business elsewhere? Bye bye business.

No easy solutions either way.

How about using good ol' "Johnny Cash" as a deposit payment ?? Also, not all people who frequent rehearsal rooms are paupers, if the cars I often see them in are to go by, not to mention their gear. Besides, they'll get their money back if all is in order.

It's true, there are no easy solutions, but something should be done. IMO some of the suggestions posted here are constructive. Shrugging of the shoulders wont solve the problem.

MilanPan!c

To add even more perspective. 99.9% of places in the states do NOT have any equipment. Bands split rooms and usually one of them own the PA.

So, find a good band to room with and the PA is fantastic, but there's no amps/drums/keys or mics.

Not a bad plan really, as you need the gear to play live anyway.

Malice

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I wonder how many band members even own a credit card, nevermind putting it on the line incase the shoddy gear they use just happens to go caput when the use it that session. Cue all the, "Em, well, it was broken before I used it, like" line of bargaining, but to be honest, I would sympathise. I've broken a few drum skins that were battered to pieces. Should I have to shell out for a new skin considering every other drummer who pummelled the life out it got there before me? Hardly fair. I have donated old recording studio skins to rehearsal rooms but I don't know how many other drummers do this.

And, if a studio required charging credit cards as some kind of collateral, how many bands would simply take their business elsewhere? Bye bye business.

No easy solutions either way.

I would say most working adults own credit cards so that would be plenty of band members. I totally agree with you on the whole issue of blame if something does break. The studio doesn't necessarily know if someone has mistreated a piece of equipment and drums by their nature get quite a lot of abuse during their lifetime. My (admittedly not very well thought out) theory was that someone would sign out an amp and would be responsible for that amp during the practice session. When finished they would then sign the amp back in where it would be inspected by a member of staff for signs of abuse. Any abuse that required fixing would be billed to the credit card or cash deposit.

There are no easy answers though and any restrictive practices like that would most likely just cause people to look elsewhere.

Waking-Dreams

Don't get me wrong, if I was running such a rehearsal room with good equipment, I'd want to protect my investment and enforce a good standard of 'looking after the facilities'. I always wondered why they never inspected the rooms after to make sure everything was OK. I just recon a large % of musicians would opt out of such a set-up if they could.

What you find typically, is that when people play gigs and share gear, they tend to look after it, as it belongs to someone else; it's personalised in a way. The battered gear at a public rehearsal room on the other hand just doesn't evoke the same kind of caring attitude because musicians don't see the immediate consequences of any mistreatment, “ah, sure they can just buy more gear or whatever” and there won't be a confrontation if they start playing puck unlike at a gig – where you might not get asked to support again, or garner a reputation for being a bit careless, etc.

Then again, I'm sure lots of people have stories of sharing gear at gigs and what people from bands did that went terribly wrong. So, as always, although I hate to bash my fellow musicians, it's (some of) us who contribute to these poor conditions. You could almost say it's a bit similar to people who talk in a movie theatre; the cinema remind us all to shut up for the sake of everyone's enjoyment but they can't really enforce this rule and (some people will break it of their own selfish accord) so, it's left to everyone else to suffer, take action or simply go elsewhere.

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, if I was running such a rehearsal room with good equipment, I'd want to protect my investment and enforce a good standard of 'looking after the facilities'. I always wondered why they never inspected the rooms after to make sure everything was OK. I just recon a large % of musicians would opt out of such a set-up if they could.

What you find typically, is that when people play gigs and share gear, they tend to look after it, as it belongs to someone else; it's personalised in a way. The battered gear at a public rehearsal room on the other hand just doesn't evoke the same kind of caring attitude because musicians don't see the immediate consequences of any mistreatment, “ah, sure they can just buy more gear or whatever” and there won't be a confrontation if they start playing puck unlike at a gig – where you might not get asked to support again, or garner a reputation for being a bit careless, etc.

Then again, I'm sure lots of people have stories of sharing gear at gigs and what people from bands did that went terribly wrong. So, as always, although I hate to bash my fellow musicians, it's (some of) us who contribute to these poor conditions. You could almost say it's a bit similar to people who talk in a movie theatre; the cinema remind us all to shut up for the sake of everyone's enjoyment but they can't really enforce this rule and (some people will break it of their own selfish accord) so, it's left to everyone else to suffer, take action or simply go elsewhere.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I question the whole "supplying musicians with gear" approach to the business model.

I think, and I hate to say this as I benefit from it, that these places should go on a we supply nothing, but we'll rent you NICE gear, REASONABLY cheap and our rooms are nice, but EMPTY.

That way, musicians would be less able to anonymously trash gear and encouraged to go out and BUY gear.

Yes, that's a bit of a hassle, but only initially. and you'd still be able to rent gear in a pinch.

This, to me, seems like a MUCH better plan.

IMO.

Rigsby

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I question the whole "supplying musicians with gear" approach to the business model.

I think, and I hate to say this as I benefit from it, that these places should go on a we supply nothing, but we'll rent you NICE gear, REASONABLY cheap and our rooms are nice, but EMPTY.

That way, musicians would be less able to anonymously trash gear and encouraged to go out and BUY gear.

Yes, that's a bit of a hassle, but only initially. and you'd still be able to rent gear in a pinch.

This, to me, seems like a MUCH better plan.

IMO.

I was of the impression that the gear was already being rented out along with the room, for the duration of the session.

drumdrum

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I question the whole "supplying musicians with gear" approach to the business model.

I think, and I hate to say this as I benefit from it, that these places should go on a we supply nothing, but we'll rent you NICE gear, REASONABLY cheap and our rooms are nice, but EMPTY.

That way, musicians would be less able to anonymously trash gear and encouraged to go out and BUY gear.

Yes, that's a bit of a hassle, but only initially. and you'd still be able to rent gear in a pinch.

This, to me, seems like a MUCH better plan.

IMO.

I know where you're coming from MilanPan!c, but that sort of mentality is a bit unfair to some bands. Not every band has a lot of money to invest in high quality gear due to any number of issues that are not necessarily apathetically based!

Years ago I was in a band that used a rehearsal room as we were in college, generally poor, no car for transport, and due to the location of the members (we all used public transport) we found that the only way we could realistically rehearse was in a rehearsal room in town.

I mean, for the musician with a job / financial backing, of course using your own gear is the way to go, but remember that that also usually involved other factors as well such as transport! You can really lug a half stack onto a dublin bus....unfortunately..........:)

MilanPan!c

drumdrum wrote: »

I know where you're coming from MilanPan!c, but that sort of mentality is a bit unfair to some bands. Not every band has a lot of money to invest in high quality gear due to any number of issues that are not necessarily apathetically based!

Years ago I was in a band that used a rehearsal room as we were in college, generally poor, no car for transport, and due to the location of the members (we all used public transport) we found that the only way we could realistically rehearse was in a rehearsal room in town.

I mean, for the musician with a job / financial backing, of course using your own gear is the way to go, but remember that that also usually involved other factors as well such as transport! You can really lug a half stack onto a dublin bus....unfortunately..........:)

Let me clarify all this:

I totally get what you mean DD.

I guess I meant that a place could be 30 quid, with no gear, 60 quid with **** gear and if you wanted you could pay the 30 and rent nicer gear or bring your own.

That way, poor folks (and I AM one of them) could still do what they're doing, people with a bit more money could at least RENT decent gear and people that owned decent gear wouldn't be paying to rent gear they didn't use.


/thread.