Beaten prov Finalists, is it worth playing in QF

gally74

yep,

All prov finalist beaten,

thats the question, louth, monaghan, sligo and limerick, was it worth playing, for mon and sligo, 6 days is nuts, well done to limerick,

why is the leinster final before the Conn final with 6 teams?

the qualifers are good if you get in early,

while im on a rant, why do Dublin get to play at home,

if sligo had walked away after loosing a point to ros, im sure they would be happier now.

dartbhoy

They said it last night after the Cork v Limerick game on RTE that out of 40 losing provincial finalists only 13 have won their next game in the qualifiers!

It was always going to be very hard for Monaghan and Sligo to turn around and win yesterday after been beat in their provincial finals only 6 days ago. Louth were on a complete downer after the Leinster final carry on so it was hard to expect them to win in those circumstances. Limerick had almost 3 weeks of a break and it clearly suited them as they came close to beating Cork.

Personally I think a team is better off been beat early in the championship and going into the All Ireland qualifiers at an early stage because it must be very hard for any team to motivate themselves for the back door after been beat in a provincial final.

Trampas

Kildare have played 5 weeks in a row now?

Bluetonic

gally74 wrote: »

while im on a rant, why do Dublin get to play at home,

Dublin haven't got a home game in the championship since 2004.

Drumpot

Trampas wrote: »

Kildare have played 5 weeks in a row now?

I think its more the mentality of the teams, not simply playing 6 days after a game. Losing in a provincial final is not just physically demanding but its demoralising pshycologically.

As for "why do Dublin play at home?". Because it makes money for the entire GAA. Most Dublin Champo games have had more then 45,000 up until this season. In most cases you will find that player's of Dublin's opponents love the opportunity to play in Croker, Im not so sure their fans are that upset and it brings in loads of money for the GAA coffers. The only losers are the sore ones with Chips on their shoulders . .

Perhaps if you feel so strongly about it you should demand that your county only gets funds from the GAA after the Dublin gate-takes have been taken off their balance sheet . .:rolleyes:

Flukey

gally74 wrote: »

while im on a rant, why do Dublin get to play at home,
.

Gally74, how many times do we have to tell people this, but Dublin do not play at home if a match is in Croke Park. Parnell Park is Dublin's home ground, and as Bluetonic points out, Dublin haven't had a championship game there for years. As Drumpot mentions, Dublin's opponents love playing in Croke Park, and nearly every team wants to play there anyway, be it against Dublin or not, but playing Dublin there is a particular incentive to them. If drawn to play Dublin any championship opponents would be disappointed if it wasn't in Croke Park, even if it was a home game for their own county.

People will tell you that even if it isn't their home ground, Croke Park is a huge and unfair advantage to Dublin. Dublin's last All-Ireland win was in 1995, and before that in 1983. So while people rant on about it being an advantage to Dublin to play there, those statistics show a very different story. With the exception of 2001 in Thurles, Dublin have always been knocked out of the championship in Croke Park in that period. So Croke Park is a wonderful advantage to Dublin, isn't it? A much more valid question would be why do the likes of Tyrone or Kerry or Kilkenny's hurlers play so many games there? They do a lot better out of it than Dublin do. Dublin have lost more championship games there than any of them, and many to them. A lot of Dublin fans will tell you they'd much prefer that Dublin did get a few home games in the championship instead of having to play in Croke Park. Of all the counties in Ireland, they probably have the least amount of championship games at home.

saintsaltynuts

Well said Flukey well said.;)

c montgomery

Dublin playing in croke park gives them a huge advantage IMO.

I would love to see them having to play cork/kerry in the qualifiers in say thurlas some year.I doubt they would have many travelling fans and id love to see how they play out of there unoffical "home" ground. Id bet they would lose.

c montgomery

Flukey wrote: »

Gally74, how many times do we have to tell people this, but Dublin do not play at home if a match is in Croke Park. Parnell Park is Dublin's home ground, and as Bluetonic points out, Dublin haven't had a championship game there for years. As Drumpot mentions, Dublin's opponents love playing in Croke Park, and nearly every team wants to play there anyway, be it against Dublin or not, but playing Dublin there is a particular incentive to them. If drawn to play Dublin any championship opponents would be disappointed if it wasn't in Croke Park, even if it was a home game for their own county.

People will tell you that even if it isn't their home ground, Croke Park is a huge and unfair advantage to Dublin. Dublin's last All-Ireland win was in 1995, and before that in 1983. So while people rant on about it being an advantage to Dublin to play there, those statistics show a very different story. With the exception of 2001 in Thurles, Dublin have always been knocked out of the championship in Croke Park in that period. So Croke Park is a wonderful advantage to Dublin, isn't it? A much more valid question would be why do the likes of Tyrone or Kerry or Kilkenny's hurlers play so many games there? They do a lot better out of it than Dublin do. Dublin have lost more championship games there than any of them, and many to them. A lot of Dublin fans will tell you they'd much prefer that Dublin did get a few home games in the championship instead of having to play in Croke Park. Of all the counties in Ireland, they probably have the least amount of championship games at home.

Just imagine how crap they would be if they had to travel to opposing counties to play games like other teams do. Playing in croke park is a huge advantage, their just not good enough to make it count.

Bluetonic

c montgomery wrote: »

Dublin playing in croke park gives them a huge advantage IMO.

I would love to see them having to play cork/kerry in the qualifiers in say thurlas some year.I doubt they would have many travelling fans and id love to see how they play out of there unoffical "home" ground. Id bet they would lose.

Here we go again....

ANXIOUS

c montgomery wrote: »

Dublin playing in croke park gives them a huge advantage IMO.

I would love to see them having to play cork/kerry in the qualifiers in say thurlas some year.I doubt they would have many travelling fans and id love to see how they play out of there unoffical "home" ground. Id bet they would lose.

Dublin fans love a trip down the countrty, they always fill teh ground. The last champo game i can remember down the country was against longfdord and it was absolutly packed.

MementoMori

Probably play havoc with the fixtures but I think 6 days is far too short to be back in action again especially after the disappointment of losing a provincal final so I'd propose that the losing provincal finalists have at least one weekend of a break between losing and playing.

It mightnt help all that must but would possibly tilt the balance a bit back towards the losing finalists.

Maybe stick the "Dublin at home stuff" into a separate thread given how often it comes up?

Flukey

The provincial finalists lost yesterday because they were not good enough. It was put down as a disadvantage for Monaghan and Sligo to play just 6 days after a match, while on the other hand it was seen as an advantage to Kildare to have played 5 weekends in a row. Of course had Kildare lost yesterday, the exact same reason would have been used to explain it and had Monaghan and/or Sligo won, having come from a game last Sunday and having an incentive to put in a good performance after a defeat would have been the reason for that.

Basically the excuse fits the result, even when it is the exact same excuse whatever the result. A winning team is fresh having not played for a few weeks or fine-tuned from competitive match practice if they have played. A losing team is tired if they have played the previous few weekends or starved of match practice if they haven't. There are no excuses for the results yesterday, even when the statistic shows 100% success for the qualifiers.

ShamoBuc

While most people know PP is the 'official' home ground to the dubs- they do play at home for (nearly) every championship game for years. Their fans do not have to travel simple as that. They can walk, cycle, get a cab , the dart, the luas the local bus service etc to a championship match, that is the huge advantage of playing at home and the dubs have in in spades - FOR YEARS. It is of course a huge advanatge.
Maybe if Cork say their 'home' ground was Páirc Uí Rinn we could play all our games in Páirc Uí Chaoimh - afterall we wouldn't be 'at home' would we?

Flukey

c montgomery wrote: »

Playing in croke park is a huge advantage, their just not good enough to make it count.

That's like saying you have a great advantage if you have chosen 6 numbers in the Lotto, but it is no use if they don't come up. 2 All Irelands in over 30 years doesn't exactly seem to be the result of some advantage, does it? Like many regular points that we have here over and over each year, the "Dublin have an advantage playing in Croke Park" argument holds about as much water as a sieve.

MementoMori

ShamoBuc wrote: »

While most people know PP is the 'official' home ground to the dubs- they do play at home for (nearly) every championship game for years. Their fans do not have to travel simple as that. They can walk, cycle, get a cab , the dart, the luas the local bus service etc to a championship match, that is the huge advantage of playing at home and the dubs have in in spades - FOR YEARS. It is of course a huge advanatge.
Maybe if Cork say their 'home' ground was Páirc Uí Rinn we could play all our games in Páirc Uí Chaoimh - afterall we wouldn't be 'at home' would we?

I'd imagine Austin Stacks as opposed to Fitzgerald stadium is probably Kerry's offical home game, given thats where most of the league games happen.

Means games in Killarney aren't home games anymore for Kerry.

Will have to tell my cousins on St Annes road who walk five minutes to the ground that they are going to away Kerry games in the Championship ::p

c montgomery

Flukey wrote: »

That's like saying you have a great advantage if you have chosen 6 numbers in the Lotto, but it is no use if they don't come up. 2 All Irelands in over 30 years doesn't exactly seem to be the result of some advantage, does it? Like many regular points that we have here over and over each year, the "Dublin have an advantage playing in Croke Park" argument holds about as much water as a sieve.

Of course its an advantage, just imaging cork getting to play all their hurling matches in pairc ui chaoimh. Tipp have only beaten them there once in the last 80years, why??because its a huge advantage to cork playing at home.
Dublin would have a much worse record if they had to travel, its just hard to imagine how bad they would be considering how poor they have been.

oneillMan999

Is this a thread on dublin playin in croke park ??

cmon mods....were gettin off topic here....again!


as for the OP, it was a huge disadvantage for monaghan and sligo and there MUST be somethin done nest year, i mean HOW does limerick get 3 weeks off between losing their prov final and monaghan/sligo only get 6 days??

the GAA talk about new rules etc etc etc about making the game better and fairer but let simple fixtures ruin certain teams chances in the championship.

this will only lead to one thing...teams losing prov semi finals on purpose to guarantee an easier passage tru the championships..

Bluetonic

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Dublin fans love a trip down the countrty, they always fill teh ground. The last champo game i can remember down the country was against longfdord and it was absolutly packed.

It was a good day out alright, we took over the square.... and manged to scrape through. What a dreadful game.

c montgomery

Flukey wrote: »

That's like saying you have a great advantage if you have chosen 6 numbers in the Lotto, but it is no use if they don't come up. 2 All Irelands in over 30 years doesn't exactly seem to be the result of some advantage, does it? Like many regular points that we have here over and over each year, the "Dublin have an advantage playing in Croke Park" argument holds about as much water as a sieve.

lol

Ya, that exactly what its like:rolleyes:

ShamoBuc

Flukey wrote: »

That's like saying you have a great advantage if you have chosen 6 numbers in the Lotto, but it is no use if they don't come up. 2 All Irelands in over 30 years doesn't exactly seem to be the result of some advantage, does it? Like many regular points that we have here over and over each year, the "Dublin have an advantage playing in Croke Park" argument holds about as much water as a sieve.

Are you for real? Playing at home is of course an advantage, always was always will be.
Your argument of 2 AI's in 30 years in pure nonesense - playing at home gives you ( and your fans) an advantage, it does NOT mean you will win the AI every year - ridiculous comment to be fair.

ShamoBuc

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Dublin fans love a trip down the countrty, they always fill teh ground. The last champo game i can remember down the country was against longfdord and it was absolutly packed.

Yeah... that was a long long time ago - since the dubs had to travel, Cork fans ( amongst others) are travelling EVERY weekend , TWICE at the moment, and ye go on about filling a square in longford years ago! WOW:rolleyes:

c montgomery

I think the GAA needs to restructure the games for next season as its not fair to expect teams like sligo/monaghan to play again 6 days after losing such big games. Mentally it takes a lot out of players and they have to try to get their focus back. The teams coming through the qualifiers have played many games but they seem to have a better attitude as if their initial loss galvinised them.

This also happens in the hurling with cork having to play today for the 3rd week in a row, 8 days after losing the munster hurling final in a grueling extra time game. This also is not enough time to recover mentally or physically.

Its an amature game but its administered by professionals, maybe they should start administrating like professionals and think about the players who's efforts get the bums on the seats that pay their wages.

Bluetonic

c montgomery wrote: »

I think the GAA needs to restructure the games for next season as its not fair to expect teams like sligo/monaghan to play again 6 days after losing such big games. Mentally it takes a lot out of players and they have to try to get their focus back. The teams coming through the qualifiers have played many games but they seem to have a better attitude as if their initial loss galvinised them.

This also happens in the hurling with cork having to play today for the 3rd week in a row, 8 days after losing the munster hurling final in a grueling extra time game. This also is not enough time to recover mentally or physically.

Its an amature game but its administered by professionals, maybe they should start administrating like professionals and think about the players who's efforts get the bums on the seats that pay their wages.

Great.

What is your proposal? How can you fit all the games in without starting in the Spring, allow time for replays and still give recovery time between quarter's, semi's and the final?

Just to add don't forget the restrictions in place from TV and sponsorship.

c montgomery

Bluetonic wrote: »

Great.

What is your proposal? How can you fit all the games in without starting in the Spring, allow time for replays and still give recovery time between quarter's, semi's and the final?

Well to start you could allow extra time for provincal semi finals rather than replays, that would have saved a week for sligo.
You could even have extra time for provincal finals but maybe the GAA dont want to drop these lucrative replays.

Theres 2 ideas already, do you have any or do you think the current system with a 6 day turn around is fair??

Bluetonic

c montgomery wrote: »

Theres 2 ideas already, do you have any??

I'm not the one proposing that it be changed, I think it fine the way it is. It was your idea.

We only ever hear mutters of change when someone loses out. The fact of the matter is that no format is going to suit everyone and compromises have to be made. Unfortunately due to the nature of the game someone must lose.

Last year Dublin had a four week break and people said that was a contributing factor to the Kerry loss.

jordainius

Bluetonic wrote: »

Dublin haven't got a home game in the championship since 2004.

Having gone to Croke Park many times down the years I can tell you with 100% certainty that it is in Dublin.

Regardless of what stadium its in, a Dublin team playing in Dublin, against a team not from Dublin, has home advantage.

Bluetonic

jordainius wrote: »

Having gone to Croke Park many times down the years I can tell you with 100% certainty that it is in Dublin.

Regardless of what stadium its in, a Dublin team playing in Dublin, against a team not from Dublin, has home advantage.

KenHy

If every game was played in Carrick on Shannon, Leitrim would still never win an all Ireland, but it would certainly suit them better than having to travel around the country. Dublin get home advantage because Croke Park is in Dublin, they just haven't made it count in the all-Ireland. (It certainly has an impact in Lensiter, they have struggled on the rare occasion they do go on their travels.)

gally74

theres a real conflict developing in foootball,

for the sligo's, louth, limerick etc. a provincial final is a hugh win, to go out 6 days later and get embarrased, is not fair on the county, the supporters and most of all the players and management,

The back door favours, the big teams that want to get to an All ireland,

my issue is with the 6 day turn around. If sligo, started the year and said, they would win div three and lose to ros by a point in a conn final they would be delighted, the 6 days has shown them up and its a bit un fair,

why is the leinster final on before conn, again it seems to give dub an advantage

Magi11

The answer is that the Provincial losers should get choice of venue for the next round. Also the 6 day turnaround has to go! Will be proposing these at the Club AGM in December.

busbybhoy

Croke Park is not Dublins home ground. It is a neutral venue!

Why shouldnt the weaker teams coming through the back door be given every oppurtunity to play at HQ.

It is an experience for both players and fans....should the GAA leave it unused until the quarter final stages???

And to say that playing here gives Dublin an advantage is not the case...In fairness their record there certainly doesnt back this arguement up

Sofa King Great

gally74 wrote: »

why is the leinster final on before conn, again it seems to give dub an advantage

Could you explain how it gave dublin an advantage this year?

c montgomery

busbybhoy wrote: »

Croke Park is not Dublins home ground. It is a neutral venue!

I cant decide wheather your head is in the clouds or buried in sand.

Dublin playing in dublin is a home game, how could it not be?

Its in the heart of the city for gods sake. If Dublin play Mayo in croker who as the advantage??

soccymonster

Tbh, I really think it was unfair on monaghan and sligo. And louth at a certain point. Looking at the results yesterday, Sligo would certainly have put it up to down and monaghan to kildare but the loss they suffered the week before obviously had an impact on their performance. And then louth, having come from a position where they shouldn't be even playing that game like...although honestly, I didn't really expect then to beat dublin anyways (and the gaa were hardly to know that louth would be playing in these circumstances).

And you can say kildare played 5 games in a row but they were on a winning roll and it's their fault that they were even in that situation by losing earlier on and not the GAA's (unlike the GAA providing an incentive for provincial final losers in ulster and connacht especially). Munster is grand though.

KERSPLAT!

The stadium has to be somewhere.... its gonna be in someones county so someone was always gonna have an advantage, just happened to be Dublin, being the capital n all.

The reason they play their champ matches there is because of the crowd they draw

corny

The GAA would lose an absolute fortune if they made Dublin play away from Croker every time. A fortune thats put to use in counties outside of Dublin i might add. You are a fool if you think the GAA shouldn't take advantage. And lets be clear here the GAA are taking advantage of Dublin. If you advocate Dublin playing away from Croker then you'd have to let them play at home (Parnell Park) once in a while too. Personally i think Dublin would be a tougher prospect on the tighter pitch at Parnell Park.

Magi11

Trampas wrote: »

Kildare have played 5 weeks in a row now?

They drew at home to Antrim. So had to replay the following weekend.

jordainius

Bluetonic wrote: »

I take it you resorted to posting that because you couldn't argue with what I said. I don't blame you. There is no reasonable/logical argument against Croke Park being a home venue for Dublin.

Think back to the 2006 All-Ireland semi final; when Mayo decided to warm up on the Hill 16 end. If Croke Park was seen as a neutral venue by Dublin that would not have been a problem, the first team out should have the right to warm up on whatever end they want.

What transpired when Dublin came out was a total farce, and would not have happened if Dublin and their fans viewed it as a neutral venue.

ArmaniJeanss

I'm a Dub and I think Dublin fans should accept that Croke Park is not a neutral venue, and not keep throwing the Parnell Park thing into the mix.

To be a truely neutral venue it needs to be perceived as neutral by everyone, and clearly Croke Park isn't perceived as neutral.

Bluetonic

jordainius wrote: »

I take it you resorted to posting that because you couldn't argue with what I said. I don't blame you. There is no reasonable/logical argument against Croke Park being a home venue for Dublin.

The FACT is that Parnell Park is Dublin is the home ground of Dublin GAA. The Dublin County Board or Dublin GAA have absolutely nothing to do with Croke Park. There is some relevance that the home of GAA is situated in the city of Dublin but only a fool would conclude that it's the home ground of Dublin GAA.

Funny that in a comparative situation we don't hear English football fans say that a london team in the FA Cup final or semi Final have a home fixture when playing at Wembley Stadium.

Bluetonic

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

To be a truely neutral venue it needs to be perceived as neutral by everyone, and clearly Croke Park isn't perceived as neutral.

By your rational it only takes one person not to perceive it as non neutral for it to be non neutral.

I know where the GAA, Leinster Council, Dublin team, Dublin board and majority of Dublin regular match goers consider to be neutral and where they know is the home ground and at the end of the day thats all that matters. The rest can have their say. It won't change the facts.

We could discuss this forever. Thats my final comment on the matter as it's pretty pointless.

ArmaniJeanss

Bluetonic wrote: »

Funny that in a comparative situation we don't hear English football fans say that a london team in the FA Cup final or semi Final have a home fixture when playing at Wembley Stadium.

The huge difference is that its declared in advance of the competition starting that the semi-finals and final will be played in Wembley*

Whereas the GAA state (afaik) that the 4th round of qualifiers will be played in neutral venues.

And large swathes of GAA folk do not consider Croke Park to be neutral. I accept it is actually neutral (the ParnellPk argument), but because Croke Pk is not perceived as neutral then it stops being neutral.

A better example would be if Ireland had a one-off playoff game against England at a neutral venue and UEFA picked the Emirates!

c montgomery

Bluetonic wrote: »

By your rational it only takes one person not to perceive it as non neutral for it to be non neutral.

I know where the GAA, Leinster Council, Dublin team, Dublin board and majority of Dublin regular match goers consider to be neutral and where they know is the home ground and at the end of the day thats all that matters. The rest can have their say. It won't change the facts.

We could discuss this forever. Thats my final comment on the matter as it's pretty pointless.

Your mean you assume, and your wrong.

Im just happy you have made your final comment on the matter as your point of view is nieve;)

Bluetonic

c montgomery wrote: »

Your mean you assume, and your wrong.

Considering your calling me up on it, prove I'm wrong.

(don't be childish and ask me to prove it)

busbybhoy

c montgomery wrote: »

I cant decide wheather your head is in the clouds or buried in sand.

Dublin playing in dublin is a home game, how could it not be?

Its in the heart of the city for gods sake. If Dublin play Mayo in croker who as the advantage??

Home advantage is not if a team plays in there home city...its if thet play at their home ground!

If Arsenal play at Wembley do they have home advantage???

You mentioned Dublin playing Mayo and asked who would have the advantage....Just look at a video from 2006 for the answer!

jordainius

Bluetonic wrote: »

The FACT is that Parnell Park is Dublin is the home ground of Dublin GAA. The Dublin County Board or Dublin GAA have absolutely nothing to do with Croke Park. There is some relevance that the home of GAA is situated in the city of Dublin but only a fool would conclude that it's the home ground of Dublin GAA.

First, I have never said that Croke Park is Dublins "home ground". And I don't think anybody else has either. So calm the hell down with your "only a fool" remark.

What I am everyone else is saying, is that Dublin have home advantage, when they play in Croke Park. Anyone in their right mind cannot deny that. Just because it is not officially their home ground, which nobody is denying, does not mean that a game in Croke Park is not a home game.

Bluetonic wrote: »

Funny that in a comparative situation we don't hear English football fans say that a london team in the FA Cup final or semi Final have a home fixture when playing at Wembley Stadium.

Comparative situation?? Which London club plays the vast majority of their home games at Wembley?? Oh that's right, NONE OF THEM DO.

Your comparison is nonsense.

jordainius

busbybhoy wrote: »

If Arsenal play at Wembley do they have home advantage???

Arsenal have as much a chance of playing at Wembley as everyone else. You get to a final, you get to Wembley.

If Arsenal are allowed play every one of their games at Wembley then you have a fair comparison. Until then, you have nothing.

c montgomery

Bluetonic wrote: »

We could discuss this forever. Thats my final comment on the matter as it's pretty pointless.

Bluetonic wrote: »

Considering your calling me up on it, prove I'm wrong.

(don't be childish and ask me to prove it)

busbybhoy wrote: »

You mentioned Dublin playing Mayo and asked who would have the advantage....Just look at a video from 2006 for the answer!

Make up your mind will ya

And by the way mayo overcame dublins home venue by outplaying them, its not that hard when your playing dublin;)

gally74

Originally Posted by gally74:

why is the leinster final on before conn, again it seems to give dub an advantage
Could you explain how it gave dublin an advantage this year?

[Report!]

Leinster and munster prov losers had3 weeks off bs conn and ulst 6 days,

Bluetonic

c montgomery wrote: »

Its not that hard when your playing dublin;)

Always comes down to childish comments like that doesn't it.

I'm glad you've found a level thats suitable for you to communicate at. :pac: