Final Written warning!!! Help

joeyjoejoe056

Hi, Ok so I've been working in the same place for the last 3 years. Last year I went through a bit of a rough patch and got a final written warning. So I behave myself for the 12 months.It was expired last month. Now I got called into H.R. over something fairly small and their after giving me another Final written warning without the verbal or first warning!! Is this Fair?? I know I can appeal it but the HR manager said she could put me on whichever warning she wanted. Is this true. Help please I really don't like the feeling of been on the final written warning

bbam

Do you have a copy of the warning's system in operation in the company? If you do you should sit down and disect it regarding the time-limits for warnings etc and ensure your own fit the system exactly as it seems to have been applied.. do this woth an open mind.

I've seen a company policy where you need to be clear for 6 months post final written warning or another can be applied at the discression of the individual manager

I have seen cases in the past where a second final was given but I've not done it myself...

As for what the HR manager said, unless it's in writing there isn't much you can do about it... It's not true of course.


I hate to say it but you may just need to knuckle down and keep your nose clean... even off the small stuff

tenchi-fan

I used to work somewhere. Just chatting to some of the people who still work there, it seems the hr department is abusing the warnings system.

They basically have everyone on warnings for fiddley things. They tightened up the stats, then put people on verbal warnings for failing to hit stats. If someone's period of annual leave is followed by a sick day, it's an automatic warning too. If someone is sick two Mondays in a row, it's also a warning because sick days are displaying a pattern.

Of course, they are a big employer in town so they get off with it!

Slasher

tenchi-fan wrote: »

They tightened up the stats, then put people on verbal warnings for failing to hit stats. If someone's period of annual leave is followed by a sick day, it's an automatic warning too. If someone is sick two Mondays in a row, it's also a warning because sick days are displaying a pattern.

I see nothing wrong with any of that. It may be that things have got out of control over a period of time, and management are trying to tighten up before they go out of business altogether, which they are perfectly entitled to do.

meditraitor

joeyjoejoe056 wrote: »

Hi, Ok so I've been working in the same place for the last 3 years. Last year I went through a bit of a rough patch and got a final written warning. So I behave myself for the 12 months.It was expired last month. Now I got called into H.R. over something fairly small and their after giving me another Final written warning without the verbal or first warning!! Is this Fair?? I know I can appeal it but the HR manager said she could put me on whichever warning she wanted. Is this true. Help please I really don't like the feeling of been on the final written warning

You can be given a final written warning without having any previous disaplinary problems..... It depends on the issue.

As someone pointed out before you should really get a copy of the company's disaplinary procedures.

+Keep a diary of all dealings with HR or management (every little thing).

thefly

What did you do

tenchi-fan

Slasher wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with any of that. It may be that things have got out of control over a period of time, and management are trying to tighten up before they go out of business altogether, which they are perfectly entitled to do.

In some cases.
However this company made it harder to hit stats, then keep people as close to the door as possible. I worked there (if only for a few months) so I know it wasn't a nice environment to work in.

makeorbrake

Was the OP provided with a copy of the companies disciplinary procedures? To the best of my knowledge, they are obliged to do so.
Did he take someone with him to the disciplinary meetings?
Does the company in question recognise a trade union?

bbam

makeorbrake wrote: »

Was the OP provided with a copy of the companies disciplinary procedures?

Would only need to be made aware of their location when startng with company

makeorbrake wrote: »

Did he take someone with him to the disciplinary meetings?

Not compulsary... it's an option for employees.

makeorbrake wrote: »

Does the company in question recognise a trade union?

Does this matter? I would think an understanding of the procedures matters more.. A shrude manager will understand any union agreements and take these into consideration before acting..

Sikie

All depends on where you see yourself in a year's time.

If you think you want to be working there still then you need to act contrite and understand the path back from beside the door. To simplify this I would suggest you have a discussion with your supervisor/manager and agree the goals and timing of same which would need to be achieved in order for you to return to a "normal" standing within the company. Such a plan sets clear expectations on both sides and gives you some clear parameters to work around.

On the other hand if you can't see yourself there in a year you might as well brace yourself for the inevitable. As was advised in either case you need to understand the disciplinary policy in the company and document every conversation. Whether a dismissal is fair or not comes down to following the procedures set out in the company disciplinary policy and that is how it would be assessed if it came to that.

D.McC

OP, been issued with a Final Written Warning over something you describe as ‘fairly small’, seems a little harsh to me.

I’ll assume the issue involved time-keeping or missing a target by a tiny percentage for the first time (IMO these would only be a minor issues).

There is an established ‘Code of Practice’ enshrined in Industrial Relations. Among other things this code deals with in the idea of ‘natural justice’.

In other words, the punishment must fit the crime!

The stress test for this would involve the HR Manager, or whoever is issuing the warning to consider what they would deem a fair action, if the shoe was on the other foot.

You should have also received a copy of the company’s disciplinary procedure.

You also should have been asked if you wanted a colleague or in the case of unionised employment, a union rep to join you (I’d bet my last Euro, the manger chairing the disciplinary meeting had at lease one other manger with them).

looksee

The OP got a Final written warning last year. Even though it has now 'expired' I think it would not take much provocation for HR to say effectively - don't slip back just because you have done your 12 months, we are losing patience with you.

D.McC

looksee wrote: »

The OP got a Final written warning last year. Even though it has now 'expired' I think it would not take much provocation for HR to say effectively - don't slip back just because you have done your 12 months, we are losing patience with you.

If that was indeed the case, then a formal written warning would be enough to ensure the OP 'toes the company line'.

HR shouldn't be about sacking an otherwise good employee or encouraging them to seek employment elsewhere.

Sikie

Unusual things can happen procedures may not be followed dismissals can occur and if a company is prepared to pay to solve its problems not worry about its repution or possible re-instatement as an outcome then anything could happen

D.McC

I agree, but what company or business would want to shell out thousands of €€€€'s to compensate an unfairly dis-missed employee.

Then re-instate that employee, only for the employee to enjoy a holiday on thier compensation. Also, if this were to happen, it would then make that employee buttet proof - or at lease near impossible to sack.

Seems like a waste of the companys money too me.

looksee

So the OP sees out his final written warning, then when it expires, casually thinks, well now I have another three goes, so it doesn't matter if I do this (whether an issue is minor can be very subjective). Then he goes straight to a final warning.

Have we established whether the company rules say you get the three warnings on a second offense?

Most people get through their entire working lives with no warnings. If the OP is serious about his job he will see out the second final warning and then carry on without any more. Why is he looking for another three chances? It doesn't seem like an attitude that would endear him to management.

Someone said the OP was a 'good worker'. We have no idea of whether he is a good worker or not, if he always just stays marginally inside the limits of what is permitted I would think management would be glad to have an excuse sack him.

AARRRRGH

Just bypass all the HR BS and get yourself another job.
You are obviously not in good standing with that company anymore.
If you are any good at your job you will easily be able to leave and get a new one. Some companies think they have people by the balls these days and the HR depts are acting like children, because they can.

People will put up with the BS during a recession, but when things start to pick up they better remember who they got petty with.

D.McC

looksee wrote: »

So the OP sees out his final written warning, then when it expires, casually thinks, well now I have another three goes, so it doesn't matter if I do this (whether an issue is minor can be very subjective). Then he goes straight to a final warning.

Have we established whether the company rules say you get the three warnings on a second offense?

Most people get through their entire working lives with no warnings. If the OP is serious about his job he will see out the second final warning and then carry on without any more. Why is he looking for another three chances? It doesn't seem like an attitude that would endear him to management.

Someone said the OP was a 'good worker'. We have no idea of whether he is a good worker or not, if he always just stays marginally inside the limits of what is permitted I would think management would be glad to have an excuse sack him.

I didn’t read the original post quite like that. I understood it to mean he felt the response from HR was a little heavy handed

bbam

D.McC wrote: »

he felt the response from HR was a little heavy handed

Don't they all

4 instances where discipline had to be administered in 13 months.. of course the problem is managment and HR. :rolleyes:

Take the medicine, do the time and learn to behave as the company expects while at work, remember who is paying who in this scenario.

D.McC

That’s a little unfair; I was prepared to give the OP the benefit of doubt. We are not aware of the nature of the second offence or indeed if it warranted a second final written warning.

I have witnessed cases like this, were all too often it becomes a case of one up man-ship. The HR Manager or who ever issued the warning feels like the employee is taking the piss, and decides to show who the boss is.

Sometimes it is forgotten that the role HR should play in an organisation is management of the human resource (the clue is in the title). Perhaps they if spoke to the OP like a person instead of a commodity the OP would have improved. Instead, the HR department has created a disgruntled employee, who will no doubt still do their job, but in a half assed way.

Which is no good to any employer

Lately, HR departments are all too quick to theaten / sack employees for sometimes the most minor infringements of company policy. Perhaps this is to justify their own positions within the organisation or perhaps because they feel there is a ready supply of labour just waiting to jump at the chance of a job.

martin451

op needs to keep a record of everything and go to employment appeals tribunal if fired. Hit them wher it hurts in their pockets if you can.
http://www.eatribunal.ie/en/Determinations.aspx a list of their rulings -you may find soemthing applicable to you.

bbam

martin451 wrote: »

op needs to keep a record of everything and go to employment appeals tribunal if fired.

What grounds would the appeal be on..
The EAT isn't some magical force that causes employers to fall to their knees and write blank cheques..

This person is on their 4th warning in 13 months and hasn't denied that the discipline was warrented, just that a second final written warning was issued when they thought the clock would just re-set back to the begining..

I'd be more for giving OP the following advice if they wish to keep the job:
>Ask for a meeting with their manager/HR.
>Admitt that their record isn't what they would like it to be.
>Ask for help in ensuring the process goes no further and reinforce that they need to keep their position..
>Look for a detailed written plan with real performance milestones to be met and measured against, this should contain a date at which the warnings system has completly expired..