Unarmed Palestinian killed by Israeli forces.

dlofnep

JERUSALEM — Israeli forces shot to death an unarmed Palestinian man early on Thursday at the edge of a Jewish settlement in the northern West Bank, Israeli military and Palestinian officials said. The Palestinian Authority government condemned the killing.

The Israeli military said that soldiers saw three Palestinians approaching the settlement of Barkan before dawn. Suspecting that one was armed, the military said, the soldiers opened fire, killing one man. The two others fled. It initially reported that there had been only one other man.

In a statement, the military said that it had set up a night watch by the settlement because there had been numerous attempts to infiltrate it in recent weeks, and settlers had complained of a rise in thefts.

Ghassan Khatib, a spokesman for the Palestinian Authority, criticized the shooting of the man the man killed, identified as Bilal Abu Libdeh from the West Bank city of Qalqilya. .

“Israel must hold its soldiers accountable for illegal and unjustified killings,” he said.

He continued, “The Israeli practice of shooting first and asking questions later has become the norm when dealing with Palestinians” in the West Bank.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/world/middleeast/23mideast.html?_r=1

I think that about sums it up. Hopefully Israel make this soldier accountable for his actions, and imprison him. But something tells me that they will let it slide. Afterall, it's just a Palestinian - they aren't real people, right?

gurramok

No reply yet from the defenders of state killings?

It reminds of the last war on Gaza. About 300 Palestinian kids murdered and not a eye batted about it by the usual pro-Isreali posters.

Guess a Palestinian life is worth alot less than an Israeli one.

wes

So the Palestinians were shot at, due to walking towards or near a settlement. Astonishing that they continue to get away with crap like this.

Einhard

gurramok wrote: »

No reply yet from the defenders of state killings?

Don't be so flippant. It demeans those who are killed, and your own position. Nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians. The soldier who opened fire should be investigated and prosecuted if warranted, which by the looks of the report, it seems to be. At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers, unlike Hamas which, as far as I know, has yet to take any action against the enablers of suicide bombers, and the traffickers of missiles. No outcry over that though.

Nodin

Einhard wrote: »

Don't be so flippant. It demeans those who are killed, and your own position. Nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians. The soldier who opened fire should be investigated and prosecuted if warranted, which by the looks of the report, it seems to be. At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers, unlike Hamas which, as far as I know, has yet to take any action against the enablers of suicide bombers, and the traffickers of missiles. No outcry over that though.

Hamas are treated as Pariahs and are under international sanctions. Why, therefore, would there need to be outcry when they are thus punished.

wes

Einhard wrote: »

Don't be so flippant. It demeans those who are killed, and your own position. Nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians. The soldier who opened fire should be investigated and prosecuted if warranted, which by the looks of the report, it seems to be. At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers, unlike Hamas which, as far as I know, has yet to take any action against the enablers of suicide bombers, and the traffickers of missiles. No outcry over that though.

Israel has a track record of letting there soldiers off with white wash investigations to be more accurate. Now occasionally, someone low level will get a slap on the wrist, but that is not the norm.

Einhard

Nodin wrote: »

Hamas are treated as Pariahs and are under international sanctions. Why, therefore, would there need to be outcry when they are thus punished.

For balance, if nothing else. People who have enabled the murder of Israeli civilians are feted as heroes by Hamas in Gaza, and yet I rarely hear a peep of condemnation.

Mayo Exile

settlers had complained of a rise in thefts.

Hilarious complaint in itself, as the settlements themselves are another form of theft, i.e. that of Palestinian land.

gurramok

Einhard wrote: »

Don't be so flippant. It demeans those who are killed, and your own position. Nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians. The soldier who opened fire should be investigated and prosecuted if warranted, which by the looks of the report, it seems to be. At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers, unlike Hamas which, as far as I know, has yet to take any action against the enablers of suicide bombers, and the traffickers of missiles. No outcry over that though.

Topic is about Israeli soldiers murdering unarmed Palestinians. If Israel wants to be like Hamas, so be it.

You honestly believe that there is a strict rule of engagement for Israeli soldiers that is actually enforced?:rolleyes:

You've just undermined your own position by looking through rose tinted glasses.

dlofnep

Shockingly, this is just after a similar incident a few days ago, when they killed a mother of five: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/16/idf-kills-mother-gaza-israel

What's worse is, after Israeli soldiers shot her - they refused to allow an ambulance to help her. Surely this is a violation of the highest order?

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

I think that about sums it up. Hopefully Israel make this soldier accountable for his actions, and imprison him. But something tells me that they will let it slide. Afterall, it's just a Palestinian - they aren't real people, right?

Wrong, and you know its wrong. Your very well aware that IDF soldiers have been brought to justice in the past.

Whats up, you bored now that there's no floatilla thread, or impeding nope 'imminent' war in Gaza?.. So now your left to rebel rouse in the absense of some decent discussion :rolleyes:

Very poor show buddy.

dlofnep

Jerry Mysterious Raise wrote: »

Wrong, and you know its wrong. Your very well aware that IDF soldiers have been brought to justice in the past.

So presumably, we can come back to this thread in 6 months from now and expect both soldiers in both incidents to be behind bars?

We know very well that Israel has a history of not prosecuting it's soldiers, or letting them off with a slap on the wrist.

Jerry Mysterious Raise wrote: »

Whats up, you bored now that there's no floatilla thread, or impeding nope 'imminent' war in Gaza?.. So now your left to rebel rouse in the absense of some decent discussion :rolleyes:

We were discussing Israel's long list of abuses against the Palestinians long before the Flotilla incident, and something tells me that we'll continue to discuss them far into the future unfortunately.

Jerry Mysterious Raise wrote: »

Very poor show buddy.

Not really. You know where I stand on the issue, and know that it's a topic I take keen interest in. I'm not going to get into an ad hominem discussion with you, because I respect you as a person. We're both above that.

I don't feel that is anything wrong for highlighting that in the space of a week, 2 unarmed civilians have been killed by Israeli soldiers - where in at least one case, an ambulance was blocked from treating a mother of 5, resulting in her death.

Are these issues not worth discussing, or have we become so desensitized to the murder of civilians that it's no longer worth the bat of an eye?

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm not going to get into an ad hominem discussion with you, because I respect you as a person. We're both above that.

You know what, your right. I'm not getting into a discussion with you either.

I really shouldn't have posted, slow day in work .

After the last floatilla thread I swore I wouldn't fall out with friends again, and certainly not over this.

I actually came over here looking to see was there any discussion on the situation in Gaza since Israel partically lifted its blockade, its a topic Wes has gotten me very interested in.

mrboswell

Einhard wrote: »

Don't be so flippant. It demeans those who are killed, and your own position. Nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians. The soldier who opened fire should be investigated and prosecuted if warranted, which by the looks of the report, it seems to be. At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers, unlike Hamas which, as far as I know, has yet to take any action against the enablers of suicide bombers, and the traffickers of missiles. No outcry over that though.

When you say nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians - I presume you don't include the IDF?

You also say "At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers".
No at least they have some track record of training their soldiers how to murder and then hang them out to dry - when someone kicks up a fuss. Otherwise they just carry on about their daily business.

Nodin

Jerry Mysterious Raise wrote: »

Wrong, and you know its wrong. Your very well aware that IDF soldiers have been brought to justice in the past.
.

For killing a Palestinian? Damn few. In fact, I'm struggling to think of one.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

For killing a Palestinian? Damn few. In fact, I'm struggling to think of one.

If you come to the table with a preconceived idea that Israel is always wrong and dosen't investigate its own soldiers then its no surprise that you can't think of anything. There are currently approximately 50 ongoing investigations into IDF personnel. Two soldiers were recently convicted of wounding a palestinian prisoner http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-convicts-commander-soldier-in-shooting-of-bound-palestinian-1.302101

Regarding the current thread, the usual people jump to conclusions immediately without actually questioning what might have happened in the incident. The assumption is always palestinian = good, israeli = bad. There were a group of palestinians attempting to infiltrate a settlement at night, there are conflicting reports as to whether they were armed or unarmed. Even if they were unarmed they were still not innocent people out for a midnight stroll, they were still trying to break into an area, the IDF soldiers were not to know whether it was for criminal or terrorist purposes http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-kills-palestinian-infiltrating-west-bank-settlement-1.303385

Memnoch

Israeli justice, where the killing of innocent palestinians is concerned, is legendary for holding itself to the highest standards of moral authority as evidence by the following:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel

An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.

I can't help but laugh at people who claim that Israel actually holds the IDF to any sort of moral standard.

Only the most extreme and flagrant abuses seem to draw any sanction, and that sanction seems to be utterly and unfailingly disproportionate to the crime concerned.

Let's not even get started on the countless incidents where the IDF claims it was prefectly justified in killing unarmed civilians (eg the recent attack on an aid flotilla in international waters).

dlofnep

That transcript was revolting to read.

Watchtower
'It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward'
Operations room
'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
Watchtower
'A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
Captain R (after killing the girl)
'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'

Minor charges for that? I mean - come on. Why isn't Israel prosecuting guys like this for murder?

Memnoch

dlofnep wrote: »

That transcript was revolting to read.



Minor charges for that? I mean - come on. Why isn't Israel prosecuting guys like this for murder?

Because clearly, the REAL culprits for her death are Hamas, and all of you liberal elite are just as much to blame for constantly bashing the IDF but not saying anything against the terrorists who you openly acknowledge as such!!!

gurramok

That sort of stuff of killing children without accountability was committed by the Nazis in WWII.

dlofnep

gurramok wrote: »

That sort of stuff of killing children without accountability was committed by the Nazis in WWII.

Don't bring Nazis into it, someone might accuse you of invoking Godwins Law!

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If you come to the table with a preconceived idea that Israel is always wrong and dosen't investigate its own soldiers then its no surprise that you can't think of anything. There are currently approximately 50 ongoing investigations into IDF personnel. Two soldiers were recently convicted of wounding a palestinian prisoner http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-convicts-commander-soldier-in-shooting-of-bound-palestinian-1.302101

This is what I said.

For killing a Palestinian? Damn few. In fact, I'm struggling to think of one.

Nothing you put above in any way negates that. I've an extensive archive of links and can find nothing in there that fits that criteria either.

dlofnep

Nodin wrote: »

Nothing you put above in any way negates that. I've an extensive archive of links and can find nothing in there that fits that criteria either.

Spot on.

BlaasForRafa seems to be in his own world, where different rules of logic apply. Let us re-state the position.

Just because Israel may make a handful of soldiers accountable for their actions, does not mean that all soldiers are made accountable for their actions. Moreover - just because a handful of soldiers may be made accountable for their actions, does not excuse Israel when it fails to act of a huge portion of unaccountable attacks on civilians.

Now with that being said - Why haven't you acknowledged this very basic point BlaasForRafa, and why do you continue to defend in the indefensible?

dan719

gurramok wrote: »

That sort of stuff of killing children without accountability was committed by the Nazis in WWII.

Godwin twenty posts in. Probably not a record but still impressive.

BlaasForRafa

dlofnep wrote: »

Spot on.

BlaasForRafa seems to be in his own world, where different rules of logic apply. Let us re-state the position.

Just because Israel may make a handful of soldiers accountable for their actions, does not mean that all soldiers are made accountable for their actions. Moreover - just because a handful of soldiers may be made accountable for their actions, does not excuse Israel when it fails to act of a huge portion of unaccountable attacks on civilians.

Now with that being said - Why haven't you acknowledged this very basic point BlaasForRafa, and why do you continue to defend in the indefensible?

Thats really rich coming from a Sinn Fein/IRA supporter.

dlofnep

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Thats really rich coming from a Sinn Fein/IRA supporter.

Ah yes, unable to refute any of my points - so instead opt engage in character assassination. Strong basis for an argument you have going there. :P

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

Don't bring Nazis into it, someone might accuse you of invoking Godwins Law!

dan719 wrote: »

Godwin twenty posts in. Probably not a record but still impressive.

Don't say I didn't warn you!

gurramok

dlofnep wrote: »

Don't say I didn't warn you!

You'd bet if a 13 yr old Israeli child was murdered by Palestinians, you'd never hear the end of it.

But hey, in this case its only a Palestinian life, so its less worthy:eek:

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Thats really rich coming from a Sinn Fein/IRA supporter.

He could be a secret clone of Bobby Sands. That doesn't make you any less wrong, however.

Einhard

gurramok wrote: »

You'd bet if a 13 yr old Israeli child was murdered by Palestinians, you'd never hear the end of it.

But hey, in this case its only a Palestinian life, so its less worthy:eek:

Apr 2, 2009 - Shlomo Nativ, 13, was killed by an axe-wielding terrorist in his community of Bat Ayin in Gush Etzion.
http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=138081

This was Hamas' reaction:
"This attack was committed in the framework of the resistance," Ayman Taha, a spokesperson for the group said. "This is a reaction to the continuing occupation and the continued building of settlements."

"This is a natural reaction," he said, "especially against the backdrop of Israeli attacks. We are a people occupied, and it is our right to defend ourselves and to act in every way and with every means at our disposal in order to defend ourselves."

And, to get the reaction from boards members, who of course are as vigorous in denouncing Hamas brutality as they are that of the IDF, I searched through the archives for the April 2009. And, quelle surprise, nothing. So, there we have it. A 13 year old Israeli child has his head caved in by a Palestinian terrorist, a crime which Hamas then seeks to justify, and not a peep in terms of reaction.

So gurramok, you're quite wrong. When a 13 y/o Israeli gets murdered in cold blood by a Palestinian, not only do we never hear the end of it, we never actually hear the start of it.



I'll let you draw your own conclusion...

gurramok

Einhard wrote: »

Apr 2, 2009 - Shlomo Nativ, 13, was killed by an axe-wielding terrorist in his community of Bat Ayin in Gush Etzion.
http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=138081

This was Hamas' reaction:
"This attack was committed in the framework of the resistance," Ayman Taha, a spokesperson for the group said. "This is a reaction to the continuing occupation and the continued building of settlements."

"This is a natural reaction," he said, "especially against the backdrop of Israeli attacks. We are a people occupied, and it is our right to defend ourselves and to act in every way and with every means at our disposal in order to defend ourselves."

And, to get the reaction from boards members, who of course are as vigorous in denouncing Hamas brutality as they are that of the IDF, I searched through the archives for the April 2009. And, quelle surprise, nothing. So, there we have it. A 13 year old Israeli child has his head caved in by a Palestinian terrorist, a crime which Hamas then seeks to justify, and not a peep in terms of reaction.

So gurramok, you're quite wrong. When a 13 y/o Israeli gets murdered in cold blood by a Palestinian, not only do we never hear the end of it, we never actually hear the start of it.



I'll let you draw your own conclusion...

Ah, you quote the 'Jerusalem Post'. I bet you would never quote an Arab newspaper for a Jewish atrocity!

Surely you are not equating Hamas to the legitimate actions of the Israeli military?:eek:

But hey, i'm still waiting on the news of prosecutions relating to the 300 kids blasted to death by the govt of Israel.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01

More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.

So did you Einhard feel compassion for those 300 kids?

dlofnep

Einhard wrote: »

I'll let you draw your own conclusion...

You won't find anyone excusing those actions. And you won't find anyone agreeing with Hamas' view of the situation that it was "natural". The mutilation of any child is downright disgusting and unnatural.

With that being said - I don't believe anyone here is claiming that those responsible for the murder of that Israeli child are upstanding, moral soldiers who would be accountable for their actions ike BlaasForRafa attempted to do with the OP. Therein lies the difference.

gurramok

Its a classic of whatboutery.

If an Israeli civilian is killed by Hamas, everyone rightly condemns it.

If a Palestinian civilian is killed by the IDF, its partly condemned by those who see its wrong.

The others who defend the IDF in this situation respond with 'what about Hamas' yet forgetting that the IDF is suppose to be the agents of a legitimate sovereign govt who are not suppose to engage in such 'murderous acts'.

To conclude, state forces(IDF) are above the law with hardly any accountability to the killing of kids in their name.

Einhard

gurramok wrote: »

Ah, you quote the 'Jerusalem Post'. I bet you would never quote an Arab newspaper for a Palestinian atrocity!

First of all, I was rebutting your statement. From your response, I take it you accept that you were wrong about the reaction that the murder of a 13 y/o Israeli child would elicit?

Secondly, I'm neither pro-Israel nor anti-Palestinian. In fact, I think Abbas is the best leader in the Middle East, followed closely by his PM, Salam Fayyad, who has done a remarkable job in the West Bank. What I am against however, is zealots on either side. Every week on boards, and in the media, there are reports and condemnations of Israeli brutality, some of which is warranted, some of it agenda driven. There is absolutely nothing however, on Palestinian attacks. Which you have unwittingly helped me prove. Palestinian man killed by Israeli soliders= outcry on boards, Israeli child killed by Palestinian= silence on boards.

If, every week, I saw posts attacking the Palestinians, and detailing each and every crime or slight, no matter how insignificant, I would be quick to point out corresponding Israeli actions. But that's not the case. Israel is constantly condemned and criticised, and yet I hear nothing on Hamas and Hezbollah. All I ask for is a bit of balance. And in the absence of that, I try to provide it. Just as I have done on American fora where the roles are reversed, and Israel recieves the pass and the Palestinians vilfied.

Surely you are not equating Hamas to the legitimate actions of the Israeli military?:eek:

Not at all. Just pointing that, unlike what you would have us believe, there is more than one protagonist in this conflict. Incidentally, when it suits a purpose, Hamas are the democratically elected, legitimate authority in Gaza. And now, they're not? I wish people would make up their mind about them. You can't have it both ways depending on your argument.

So did you Einhard feel compassion for those 300 kids?

I'm not going to dignify that kind of rubbish with a reasoned response. I condemn when condemnation is warranted; both Hamas and the IDF. As I have on this very thread. Your sense of outrage seems entirely dependent however, not on the crime perpetrated, but on the perpetrator; your reaction to abuses predicated not on the abuses themselves, but on the abuser. And that, in my mind, is both inconsistent and hypocritical.

Memnoch

Einhard, the difference is, that it is not just Hamas that are held accountable for their actions, which I think you would find it hard to dispute that they are. But the entire palestinian populace is made to pay for their crimes.

The contrast is there and indisputably so. Hamas DO NOT have the power to act with impunity, wheras the IDF do.

Hamas are NOT protected from sanction and correction by a sugar daddy at the UN security council.

Hamas are a bunch of terrorist thugs and I roundly denounce them, their followers and their crimes. But they are terrorist thugs, and terrorist thugs kill people. And in that very macabre sense the killing of someone by KNOWN CRIMINALS is not considered to be big news.

However, the murder of children by soldiers of a legitimate western state that is NEVER held to account, and that can act with impunity is news.

And it is news because of the contrast in terms of the way Israel is treated and the way the palestinians are treated.

So it's LAUGHABLY and SUPREMELY ironic that people here are complaining about Israel recieving the "unfair" treatment and scrutiny. I have to marvel at the level of wilful ignorance it must take to come here and make that assertion because it requires one to completely forget about what Israel is considered to be, what they do and the standard to which they are ACTUALLY (and not just in the court of public opinion) held to account.

gurramok

Einhard wrote: »

First of all, I was rebutting your statement. From your response, I take it you accept that you were wrong about the reaction that the murder of a 13 y/o Israeli child would elicit?

Secondly, I'm neither pro-Israel nor anti-Palestinian. In fact, I think Abbas is the best leader in the Middle East, followed closely by his PM, Salam Fayyad, who has done a remarkable job in the West Bank. What I am against however, is zealots on either side. Every week on boards, and in the media, there are reports and condemnations of Israeli brutality, some of which is warranted, some of it agenda driven. There is absolutely nothing however, on Palestinian attacks. Which you have unwittingly helped me prove. Palestinian man killed by Israeli soliders= outcry on boards, Israeli child killed by Palestinian= silence on boards.

If, every week, I saw posts attacking the Palestinians, and detailing each and every crime or slight, no matter how insignificant, I would be quick to point out corresponding Israeli actions. But that's not the case. Israel is constantly condemned and criticised, and yet I hear nothing on Hamas and Hezbollah. All I ask for is a bit of balance. And in the absence of that, I try to provide it. Just as I have done on American fora where the roles are reversed, and Israel recieves the pass and the Palestinians vilfied.

Not at all. Just pointing that, unlike what you would have us believe, there is more than one protagonist in this conflict. Incidentally, when it suits a purpose, Hamas are the democratically elected, legitimate authority in Gaza. And now, they're not? I wish people would make up their mind about them. You can't have it both ways depending on your argument.

I'm not going to dignify that kind of rubbish with a reasoned response. I condemn when condemnation is warranted; both Hamas and the IDF. As I have on this very thread. Your sense of outrage seems entirely dependent however, not on the crime perpetrated, but on the perpetrator; your reaction to abuses predicated not on the abuses themselves, but on the abuser. And that, in my mind, is both inconsistent and hypocritical.

You see Einhard, you do not even care about 300 kids been murdered by the IDF, you dismiss it as rubbish! :eek:

Yet you highlight one poor 13yr soul murdered by some extremist group. As yourself has not highlighted the more numerous killings of children carried out by the IDF, this only one leads to believe you are not entirely neutral on the subject despite your false protestations.

Memnoch summarises my feelings on the subject, well said.

Einhard

Memnoch wrote: »

Einhard, the difference is, that it is not just Hamas that are held accountable for their actions, which I think you would find it hard to dispute that they are. But the entire palestinian populace is made to pay for their crimes.

The only way that Hamas are held accountable for their actions is because Israel does so. Hamas lob missile after missile into Israeli towns, send suicide bombers into nightclubs and hotels, all with the intention of killing as many civilians- Jewish, Christian, and Muslim- as possible, and there is never any condemnation. There is never any outrage. We have posts on here lambasting a few IDF soldiers for "rocking the kasbah" on video in a Palestinian village, and yet nothing when a 13 y/o Israeli kid is brutally murdered. That's the discrepancy I'm getting at Memnoch. As I said, I don't expect balance in the reporting for some of the reasons you outline, but I don't think it too much to ask that Palestinian atrocities and crimes be highlighted every now and then, and that Israeli actions be considered (not excused) in that context.

Also, the entire Palestinian populace is not made to pay for Hamas' crimes. Even in the wake of the worldwide recession, the West Bank is thriving under the leadership of Abbas and Fayyad whom I mentioned above. (See http://www.slate.com/id/2255903/ for a interesting analysis). It seems that some "activists" categorise Palestinians not according to ethnicity but according to relative prosperity. Thus the Gazans are "the entire Palestinian populace" rather than the 20% of the populace they actually represent. It's interesting that the 80% of the Palestinian population which is bucking economic expectations, experiencing rising living standards, and living in relative peace with the Israelis, is routinely ignored, or treated as not quite Palestinian. Indeed, I've even heard Mahmoud Abbas and Salam Fayyad referred to as traitors to the Palestinian cause for wishing to improve the economic lot of their people, and seek a peaceful settlement with Israel.

Incidentally, it might be to instructive to consider why the West Bank is not subject to Israeli blockade. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Israeli citizens are not murdered by government sanctioned, and operated, missiles emanating from West Bank territory?

The contrast is there and indisputably so. Hamas DO NOT have the power to act with impunity, wheras the IDF do.

As I pointed out, the only reason this is the case is because Israel makes it the case. Do you really think that China and Russia would alienate Arab or Muslim allies by imposing sanctions on the Palestinian state? That those sanctions would have any impact on the large scale smuggling of missiles into Gaza? The only action that can be taken against Hamas is taken by Israel (and Egypt to an extent), and yet, even though you accept Hamas need to be held accountable, anything Israel does is routinely condemned.

Hamas are a bunch of terrorist thugs and I roundly denounce them, their followers and their crimes. But they are terrorist thugs, and terrorist thugs kill people. And in that very macabre sense the killing of someone by KNOWN CRIMINALS is not considered to be big news.

As is often pointed out here, they are the democratically elected, legitimate government of the Gaza Strip. And they exist in a de facto state of war with Israel. Nor is this a war in theory, but in reality, as the barrage of missiles into Sderot, and the widespread smuggling of Iranian weaponry testify to. They are not merely criminals as you allege. Neither Israel, nor Egypt, nor anyone else for that matter, can send police in to arrest Hamas officials. So we have a situation where civilian intervention in the form of the police is impossible, and military action is denounced as reprehensible. So how exactly are Hamas to be held accountable?

However, the murder of children by soldiers of a legitimate western state that is NEVER held to account, and that can act with impunity is news.

I have no doubt that Israeli soldiers have murdered Palestinian civilians and this is reprehensible. They should be held accountable and prosecuted for this. However, the policy of the IDF is not, as some here allege, to murder civilians, Palestinian or otherwise. The death of 300 children is indeed tragic, but surely a poor return for a force whose intention is to murder Palestinian children? And one with a fearsome reputation at that? Also, the IDF is a conscript army, the majority of its personnel made up of young Israeli civilians. So, in order to believe what is alleged about the IDF, one would have to believe that the average Israeli is either a murderer, or prepared to become one. This comes very close to the medieval attitude towards Jews in my opinion.

So it's LAUGHABLY and SUPREMELY ironic that people here are complaining about Israel recieving the "unfair" treatment and scrutiny. I have to marvel at the level of wilful ignorance it must take to come here and make that assertion because it requires one to completely forget about what Israel is considered to be, what they do and the standard to which they are ACTUALLY (and not just in the court of public opinion) held to account.

It's not that the coverage is unfair, but that it is incredibly unbalanced and one sided. How on earth can a proper debate be had on the situation in the ME when one side is routinely depicted as amoral, murdering monsters, whilst the actions of the opposing faction are routinely contextualised and explained away? I expect israel to be held to account, but I also expect the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas to be a source of outrage too. And not only those against Israelis, but those Hamas carry out against their own citizens which, while we're being ironic, recieve scant attention, and no criticism, fuelling the suspicion that the outrage generated is based more on the perpetrator of percieved offences than the offence itself.

gurramok wrote: »

You see Einhard, you do not even care about 300 kids been murdered by the IDF, you dismiss it as rubbish! :eek:


Yet you highlight one poor 13yr soul murdered by some extremist group. As yourself has not highlighted the more numerous killings of children carried out by the IDF, this only one leads to believe you are not entirely neutral on the subject despite your false protestations.

Memnoch summarises my feelings on the subject, well said.

Memnoch makes some well reasoned points and, whilst I may not agree with him, I respect his opinion and the way he outlined it. No base and scurrilous slanders and ad hominem attacks of the type which you lower yourself with. You might learn something from his approach.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

He could be a secret clone of Bobby Sands. That doesn't make you any less wrong, however.

ah yes the usual mutual backslapping.

So what exactly was wrong in what I said

Regarding the current thread, the usual people jump to conclusions immediately without actually questioning what might have happened in the incident. The assumption is always palestinian = good, israeli = bad. There were a group of palestinians attempting to infiltrate a settlement at night, there are conflicting reports as to whether they were armed or unarmed. Even if they were unarmed they were still not innocent people out for a midnight stroll, they were still trying to break into an area, the IDF soldiers were not to know whether it was for criminal or terrorist purposes http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...ement-1.303385

Einhard

gurramok wrote: »

Its a classic of whatboutery.

If an Israeli civilian is killed by Hamas, everyone rightly condemns it.

If a Palestinian civilian is killed by the IDF, its partly condemned by those who see its wrong.

Not quite. When Hamas deliberately target civilians for death, I condemn it. When an Israeli deliberately targets civilians for death, my reaction is the same.

Were Hamas to kill civilians in an attack on the IDF, I would take a somewhat different attitude. I would still be horrified, but would have to resign myself to the fact that such is war.

Similarly, when the IDF kills Palestinian civilians, I am horrified, but my judgement is not so clouded that I cannot see the difference between deliberate murder, and unintentional killing.

BlaasForRafa

dlofnep wrote: »

You won't find anyone excusing those actions. And you won't find anyone agreeing with Hamas' view of the situation that it was "natural". The mutilation of any child is downright disgusting and unnatural.

With that being said - I don't believe anyone here is claiming that those responsible for the murder of that Israeli child are upstanding, moral soldiers who would be accountable for their actions ike BlaasForRafa attempted to do with the OP. Therein lies the difference.

What the f**k are you talking about? I'm saying that the full facts of the incident are not known yet you immediately jump to a conclusion based on patchy evidence which is absolutely typical of your bias in all of these threads.

Also in response to one of your usual allegations, I find your response to Hamas and IRA atrocities to be mealy-mouthed and hypocritical.

Wolfe Tone

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

What the f**k are you talking about? I'm saying that the full facts of the incident are not known yet you immediately jump to a conclusion based on patchy evidence which is absolutely typical of your bias in all of these threads.

Also in response to one of your usual allegations, I find your response to Hamas and IRA atrocities to be mealy-mouthed and hypocritical.

What does the IRA have to do with this thread?

dlofnep

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

What the f**k are you talking about? I'm saying that the full facts of the incident are not known yet you immediately jump to a conclusion based on patchy evidence which is absolutely typical of your bias in all of these threads.

Temper temper.

What facts might we see? You see - we'll never see facts from Israel, because they refuse to co-operate on an international basis for any investigations. Even for argument's sake, that this Palestinian ran at soldiers with a grenade in one hand, and a machine gun in the other - it doesn't change the fact that Israeli atrocities have by far and large, been completely unaccountable. And this, is the key point of which you have missed, for the second/third/whatever'th time.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Also in response to one of your usual allegations, I find your response to Hamas and IRA atrocities to be mealy-mouthed and hypocritical.

I'm not interesting in what you find, or what you don't find. Your opinion is irrelevant to me. FTR: These are not my allegations. If you read the opening paragraph of the original news story, you'd have read the following:

JERUSALEM — Israeli forces shot to death an unarmed Palestinian man early on Thursday at the edge of a Jewish settlement in the northern West Bank, Israeli military and Palestinian officials said. The Palestinian Authority government condemned the killing, calling it a "breach of the rule of law."

Both Israel, and Palestinian officials have confirmed that the civilian was unarmed. I ask that the soldier in question be made accountable - and have every right to express my lack in faith of such a thing happening, given Israel's record on accountability.

Now, if you don't mind - I'd rather discuss this incident, rather than engage in an ad-hominem-driven discussion, where you persist in attacking my character rather than engaging in the topic at hand. Thank you.

Nodin

Einhard wrote:

Incidentally, it might be to instructive to consider why the West Bank is not subject to Israeli blockade. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Israeli citizens are not murdered by government sanctioned, and operated, missiles emanating from West Bank territory?

Einhard wrote:

It's interesting that the 80% of the Palestinian population which is bucking economic expectations, experiencing rising living standards, and living in relative peace with the Israelis, is routinely ignored, or treated as not quite Palestinian.

Yeah, they're reaping the "peace dividend" all right.

LONDON, June 29, 2010 (WAFA)- Areas of the West Bank under complete Israeli control have plummeted into a humanitarian crisis worse than Gaza, Save the Children warned.
A new report, 'Life on the Edge', released today, states that an estimated 40,000 Palestinians living in Area C - the 60% of the West Bank under Israeli control - are unable to make urgent repairs to their sewage systems, schools, homes or hospitals under Israel's strict permit system.
Israel's restrictions on Palestinian access to and development of agricultural land – in an area where almost all families are herders - mean that thousands of children are going hungry and are vulnerable to killer illnesses like diarrhoea and pneumonia.
Conditions for children in Area C have reached a crisis point:
79% of communities surveyed recently in Area C don't have enough nutritious food - this is higher than in blockaded Gaza where the rate is 61%.

http://english.wafa.ps/?action=detail&id=14441

Amnesty International has today called on the Israeli authorities to stop the demolition of Palestinian homes and other buildings in the West Bank, after a further 74 were destroyed in the Jordan Valley earlier this week.

The demolitions were carried out by the Israeli military in the villages of Hmayyir and 'Ein Ghazal in the area of al-Farisiya on Monday, displacing 107 people, including 52 children.

According to UN figures, at least 198 Palestinian structures in the West Bank have been demolished this year, resulting in the forced displacement of almost 300 Palestinians, half of them children, while 600 others have also been affected.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israel-intensifies-west-bank-palestinian-home-demolitions-2010-07-21

I've no doubt that those around Abbas are cosy though. We can have a competition later to name the dividend he's getting.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

ah yes the usual mutual backslapping.

So what exactly was wrong in what I said

The exchange went as follows
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67074548&postcount=15

(1st paragraph)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67077270&postcount=16

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67083022&postcount=22

With regard to my statement regarding the lack of convictions for killing Palestinians, you haven't been able to correct me.

gurramok

Einhard wrote: »

Memnoch makes some well reasoned points and, whilst I may not agree with him, I respect his opinion and the way he outlined it. No base and scurrilous slanders and ad hominem attacks of the type which you lower yourself with. You might learn something from his approach.

Don't be so 'flippant'.

Einhard wrote: »

Not quite. When Hamas deliberately target civilians for death, I condemn it. When an Israeli deliberately targets civilians for death, my reaction is the same.

Were Hamas to kill civilians in an attack on the IDF, I would take a somewhat different attitude. I would still be horrified, but would have to resign myself to the fact that such is war.

Similarly, when the IDF kills Palestinian civilians, I am horrified, but my judgement is not so clouded that I cannot see the difference between deliberate murder, and unintentional killing.

Yeh, due to feck all convictions of such soldiers in said acts, they must be all unintentional killings :rolleyes:

wes

gurramok wrote: »

Yeh, due to feck all convictions of such soldiers in said acts, they must be all unintentional killings :rolleyes:

Well, its hardly unexpected. The IDF's constant deliberate murder of Palestinian civilians if often excused on here, and I especially find it funny the sheer inconsistency being shown by those who rightly condemn Hamas, and then in the same breath make all kind of excuses for the IDF.

I fail to see how one murdering shower is any better than the other personally, but I guess some people can rationalize away the murderous actions of one side whenever it suits.

Nodin

gurramok wrote: »

Don't be so 'flippant'.



Yeh, due to feck all convictions of such soldiers in said acts, they must be all unintentional killings :rolleyes:

Unintentional unprosecutable accidents that most times seem to involve a single bullet hitting the head, to be precise*



*if you're Palestinian. Slightly different rules for Non-Palestinians.