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Unarmed Palestinian killed by Israeli forces.

  • 22-07-2010 08:46PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭


    JERUSALEM — Israeli forces shot to death an unarmed Palestinian man early on Thursday at the edge of a Jewish settlement in the northern West Bank, Israeli military and Palestinian officials said. The Palestinian Authority government condemned the killing.

    The Israeli military said that soldiers saw three Palestinians approaching the settlement of Barkan before dawn. Suspecting that one was armed, the military said, the soldiers opened fire, killing one man. The two others fled. It initially reported that there had been only one other man.

    In a statement, the military said that it had set up a night watch by the settlement because there had been numerous attempts to infiltrate it in recent weeks, and settlers had complained of a rise in thefts.

    Ghassan Khatib, a spokesman for the Palestinian Authority, criticized the shooting of the man the man killed, identified as Bilal Abu Libdeh from the West Bank city of Qalqilya. .

    “Israel must hold its soldiers accountable for illegal and unjustified killings,” he said.

    He continued, “The Israeli practice of shooting first and asking questions later has become the norm when dealing with Palestinians” in the West Bank.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/world/middleeast/23mideast.html?_r=1

    I think that about sums it up. Hopefully Israel make this soldier accountable for his actions, and imprison him. But something tells me that they will let it slide. Afterall, it's just a Palestinian - they aren't real people, right?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    No reply yet from the defenders of state killings?

    It reminds of the last war on Gaza. About 300 Palestinian kids murdered and not a eye batted about it by the usual pro-Isreali posters.

    Guess a Palestinian life is worth alot less than an Israeli one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    So the Palestinians were shot at, due to walking towards or near a settlement. Astonishing that they continue to get away with crap like this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    gurramok wrote: »
    No reply yet from the defenders of state killings?

    Don't be so flippant. It demeans those who are killed, and your own position. Nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians. The soldier who opened fire should be investigated and prosecuted if warranted, which by the looks of the report, it seems to be. At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers, unlike Hamas which, as far as I know, has yet to take any action against the enablers of suicide bombers, and the traffickers of missiles. No outcry over that though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Einhard wrote: »
    Don't be so flippant. It demeans those who are killed, and your own position. Nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians. The soldier who opened fire should be investigated and prosecuted if warranted, which by the looks of the report, it seems to be. At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers, unlike Hamas which, as far as I know, has yet to take any action against the enablers of suicide bombers, and the traffickers of missiles. No outcry over that though.

    Hamas are treated as Pariahs and are under international sanctions. Why, therefore, would there need to be outcry when they are thus punished.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Einhard wrote: »
    Don't be so flippant. It demeans those who are killed, and your own position. Nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians. The soldier who opened fire should be investigated and prosecuted if warranted, which by the looks of the report, it seems to be. At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers, unlike Hamas which, as far as I know, has yet to take any action against the enablers of suicide bombers, and the traffickers of missiles. No outcry over that though.

    Israel has a track record of letting there soldiers off with white wash investigations to be more accurate. Now occasionally, someone low level will get a slap on the wrist, but that is not the norm.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Nodin wrote: »
    Hamas are treated as Pariahs and are under international sanctions. Why, therefore, would there need to be outcry when they are thus punished.

    For balance, if nothing else. People who have enabled the murder of Israeli civilians are feted as heroes by Hamas in Gaza, and yet I rarely hear a peep of condemnation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭Mayo Exile


    settlers had complained of a rise in thefts.

    Hilarious complaint in itself, as the settlements themselves are another form of theft, i.e. that of Palestinian land.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Einhard wrote: »
    Don't be so flippant. It demeans those who are killed, and your own position. Nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians. The soldier who opened fire should be investigated and prosecuted if warranted, which by the looks of the report, it seems to be. At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers, unlike Hamas which, as far as I know, has yet to take any action against the enablers of suicide bombers, and the traffickers of missiles. No outcry over that though.

    Topic is about Israeli soldiers murdering unarmed Palestinians. If Israel wants to be like Hamas, so be it.

    You honestly believe that there is a strict rule of engagement for Israeli soldiers that is actually enforced?:rolleyes:

    You've just undermined your own position by looking through rose tinted glasses.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Shockingly, this is just after a similar incident a few days ago, when they killed a mother of five: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/16/idf-kills-mother-gaza-israel

    What's worse is, after Israeli soldiers shot her - they refused to allow an ambulance to help her. Surely this is a violation of the highest order?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I think that about sums it up. Hopefully Israel make this soldier accountable for his actions, and imprison him. But something tells me that they will let it slide. Afterall, it's just a Palestinian - they aren't real people, right?

    Wrong, and you know its wrong. Your very well aware that IDF soldiers have been brought to justice in the past.

    Whats up, you bored now that there's no floatilla thread, or impeding nope 'imminent' war in Gaza?.. So now your left to rebel rouse in the absense of some decent discussion :rolleyes:

    Very poor show buddy.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Wrong, and you know its wrong. Your very well aware that IDF soldiers have been brought to justice in the past.

    So presumably, we can come back to this thread in 6 months from now and expect both soldiers in both incidents to be behind bars?

    We know very well that Israel has a history of not prosecuting it's soldiers, or letting them off with a slap on the wrist.
    Whats up, you bored now that there's no floatilla thread, or impeding nope 'imminent' war in Gaza?.. So now your left to rebel rouse in the absense of some decent discussion :rolleyes:

    We were discussing Israel's long list of abuses against the Palestinians long before the Flotilla incident, and something tells me that we'll continue to discuss them far into the future unfortunately.
    Very poor show buddy.

    Not really. You know where I stand on the issue, and know that it's a topic I take keen interest in. I'm not going to get into an ad hominem discussion with you, because I respect you as a person. We're both above that.

    I don't feel that is anything wrong for highlighting that in the space of a week, 2 unarmed civilians have been killed by Israeli soldiers - where in at least one case, an ambulance was blocked from treating a mother of 5, resulting in her death.

    Are these issues not worth discussing, or have we become so desensitized to the murder of civilians that it's no longer worth the bat of an eye?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I'm not going to get into an ad hominem discussion with you, because I respect you as a person. We're both above that.

    You know what, your right. I'm not getting into a discussion with you either.

    I really shouldn't have posted, slow day in work :p.

    After the last floatilla thread I swore I wouldn't fall out with friends again, and certainly not over this.

    I actually came over here looking to see was there any discussion on the situation in Gaza since Israel partically lifted its blockade, its a topic Wes has gotten me very interested in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭mrboswell


    Einhard wrote: »
    Don't be so flippant. It demeans those who are killed, and your own position. Nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians. The soldier who opened fire should be investigated and prosecuted if warranted, which by the looks of the report, it seems to be. At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers, unlike Hamas which, as far as I know, has yet to take any action against the enablers of suicide bombers, and the traffickers of missiles. No outcry over that though.

    When you say nobody defends the deliberate killings of civilians - I presume you don't include the IDF?

    You also say "At least the Israelis have some track record of prosecuting their own soldiers".
    No at least they have some track record of training their soldiers how to murder and then hang them out to dry - when someone kicks up a fuss. Otherwise they just carry on about their daily business.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Wrong, and you know its wrong. Your very well aware that IDF soldiers have been brought to justice in the past.
    .

    For killing a Palestinian? Damn few. In fact, I'm struggling to think of one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Nodin wrote: »
    For killing a Palestinian? Damn few. In fact, I'm struggling to think of one.

    If you come to the table with a preconceived idea that Israel is always wrong and dosen't investigate its own soldiers then its no surprise that you can't think of anything. There are currently approximately 50 ongoing investigations into IDF personnel. Two soldiers were recently convicted of wounding a palestinian prisoner http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-convicts-commander-soldier-in-shooting-of-bound-palestinian-1.302101

    Regarding the current thread, the usual people jump to conclusions immediately without actually questioning what might have happened in the incident. The assumption is always palestinian = good, israeli = bad. There were a group of palestinians attempting to infiltrate a settlement at night, there are conflicting reports as to whether they were armed or unarmed. Even if they were unarmed they were still not innocent people out for a midnight stroll, they were still trying to break into an area, the IDF soldiers were not to know whether it was for criminal or terrorist purposes http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-kills-palestinian-infiltrating-west-bank-settlement-1.303385


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Israeli justice, where the killing of innocent palestinians is concerned, is legendary for holding itself to the highest standards of moral authority as evidence by the following:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel
    An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
    The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.

    I can't help but laugh at people who claim that Israel actually holds the IDF to any sort of moral standard.

    Only the most extreme and flagrant abuses seem to draw any sanction, and that sanction seems to be utterly and unfailingly disproportionate to the crime concerned.

    Let's not even get started on the countless incidents where the IDF claims it was prefectly justified in killing unarmed civilians (eg the recent attack on an aid flotilla in international waters).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    That transcript was revolting to read.
    Watchtower
    'It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward'
    Operations room
    'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
    Watchtower
    'A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
    Captain R (after killing the girl)
    'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'

    Minor charges for that? I mean - come on. Why isn't Israel prosecuting guys like this for murder?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    dlofnep wrote: »
    That transcript was revolting to read.



    Minor charges for that? I mean - come on. Why isn't Israel prosecuting guys like this for murder?

    Because clearly, the REAL culprits for her death are Hamas, and all of you liberal elite are just as much to blame for constantly bashing the IDF but not saying anything against the terrorists who you openly acknowledge as such!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    That sort of stuff of killing children without accountability was committed by the Nazis in WWII.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    gurramok wrote: »
    That sort of stuff of killing children without accountability was committed by the Nazis in WWII.

    Don't bring Nazis into it, someone might accuse you of invoking Godwins Law!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    If you come to the table with a preconceived idea that Israel is always wrong and dosen't investigate its own soldiers then its no surprise that you can't think of anything. There are currently approximately 50 ongoing investigations into IDF personnel. Two soldiers were recently convicted of wounding a palestinian prisoner http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-convicts-commander-soldier-in-shooting-of-bound-palestinian-1.302101

    This is what I said.
    For killing a Palestinian? Damn few. In fact, I'm struggling to think of one.

    Nothing you put above in any way negates that. I've an extensive archive of links and can find nothing in there that fits that criteria either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Nodin wrote: »
    Nothing you put above in any way negates that. I've an extensive archive of links and can find nothing in there that fits that criteria either.

    Spot on.

    BlaasForRafa seems to be in his own world, where different rules of logic apply. Let us re-state the position.

    Just because Israel may make a handful of soldiers accountable for their actions, does not mean that all soldiers are made accountable for their actions. Moreover - just because a handful of soldiers may be made accountable for their actions, does not excuse Israel when it fails to act of a huge portion of unaccountable attacks on civilians.

    Now with that being said - Why haven't you acknowledged this very basic point BlaasForRafa, and why do you continue to defend in the indefensible?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭dan719


    gurramok wrote: »
    That sort of stuff of killing children without accountability was committed by the Nazis in WWII.

    Godwin twenty posts in. Probably not a record but still impressive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Spot on.

    BlaasForRafa seems to be in his own world, where different rules of logic apply. Let us re-state the position.

    Just because Israel may make a handful of soldiers accountable for their actions, does not mean that all soldiers are made accountable for their actions. Moreover - just because a handful of soldiers may be made accountable for their actions, does not excuse Israel when it fails to act of a huge portion of unaccountable attacks on civilians.

    Now with that being said - Why haven't you acknowledged this very basic point BlaasForRafa, and why do you continue to defend in the indefensible?

    Thats really rich coming from a Sinn Fein/IRA supporter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Thats really rich coming from a Sinn Fein/IRA supporter.

    Ah yes, unable to refute any of my points - so instead opt engage in character assassination. Strong basis for an argument you have going there. :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Don't bring Nazis into it, someone might accuse you of invoking Godwins Law!
    dan719 wrote: »
    Godwin twenty posts in. Probably not a record but still impressive.

    Don't say I didn't warn you!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Don't say I didn't warn you!

    You'd bet if a 13 yr old Israeli child was murdered by Palestinians, you'd never hear the end of it.

    But hey, in this case its only a Palestinian life, so its less worthy:eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Thats really rich coming from a Sinn Fein/IRA supporter.

    He could be a secret clone of Bobby Sands. That doesn't make you any less wrong, however.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    gurramok wrote: »
    You'd bet if a 13 yr old Israeli child was murdered by Palestinians, you'd never hear the end of it.

    But hey, in this case its only a Palestinian life, so its less worthy:eek:

    Apr 2, 2009 - Shlomo Nativ, 13, was killed by an axe-wielding terrorist in his community of Bat Ayin in Gush Etzion.
    http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=138081

    This was Hamas' reaction:
    "This attack was committed in the framework of the resistance," Ayman Taha, a spokesperson for the group said. "This is a reaction to the continuing occupation and the continued building of settlements."

    "This is a natural reaction," he said, "especially against the backdrop of Israeli attacks. We are a people occupied, and it is our right to defend ourselves and to act in every way and with every means at our disposal in order to defend ourselves."

    And, to get the reaction from boards members, who of course are as vigorous in denouncing Hamas brutality as they are that of the IDF, I searched through the archives for the April 2009. And, quelle surprise, nothing. So, there we have it. A 13 year old Israeli child has his head caved in by a Palestinian terrorist, a crime which Hamas then seeks to justify, and not a peep in terms of reaction.

    So gurramok, you're quite wrong. When a 13 y/o Israeli gets murdered in cold blood by a Palestinian, not only do we never hear the end of it, we never actually hear the start of it.



    I'll let you draw your own conclusion...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Einhard wrote: »
    Apr 2, 2009 - Shlomo Nativ, 13, was killed by an axe-wielding terrorist in his community of Bat Ayin in Gush Etzion.
    http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=138081

    This was Hamas' reaction:
    "This attack was committed in the framework of the resistance," Ayman Taha, a spokesperson for the group said. "This is a reaction to the continuing occupation and the continued building of settlements."

    "This is a natural reaction," he said, "especially against the backdrop of Israeli attacks. We are a people occupied, and it is our right to defend ourselves and to act in every way and with every means at our disposal in order to defend ourselves."

    And, to get the reaction from boards members, who of course are as vigorous in denouncing Hamas brutality as they are that of the IDF, I searched through the archives for the April 2009. And, quelle surprise, nothing. So, there we have it. A 13 year old Israeli child has his head caved in by a Palestinian terrorist, a crime which Hamas then seeks to justify, and not a peep in terms of reaction.

    So gurramok, you're quite wrong. When a 13 y/o Israeli gets murdered in cold blood by a Palestinian, not only do we never hear the end of it, we never actually hear the start of it.



    I'll let you draw your own conclusion...

    Ah, you quote the 'Jerusalem Post'. I bet you would never quote an Arab newspaper for a Jewish atrocity!

    Surely you are not equating Hamas to the legitimate actions of the Israeli military?:eek:

    But hey, i'm still waiting on the news of prosecutions relating to the 300 kids blasted to death by the govt of Israel.

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01
    More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.

    So did you Einhard feel compassion for those 300 kids?


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