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Israel Jails Palestinian for Pretending to be Jewish

  • 22-07-2010 03:19PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Arab guilty of rape after consensual sex with Jew | World news | The Guardian

    A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew.

    Sabbar Kashur, 30, was sentenced to 18 months in prison on Monday after the court ruled that he was guilty of rape by deception. According to the complaint filed by the woman with the Jerusalem district court, the two met in downtown Jerusalem in September 2008 where Kashur, an Arab from East Jerusalem, introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship. The two then had consensual sex in a nearby building before Kashur left.

    When she later found out that he was not Jewish but an Arab, she filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault.

    Handing down the verdict, Tzvi Segal, one of three judges on the case, acknowledged that sex had been consensual but said that although not "a classical rape by force," the woman would not have consented if she had not believed Kashur was Jewish.

    The sex therefore was obtained under false pretences, the judges said. "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," they added.



    How anyone can credibly argue Israel is not an apartheid state is beyond me.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    F*cking hell.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Did he actually say he was Jewish? Or was it because he said his name was Daniel?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Did he actually say he was Jewish? Or was it because he said his name was Daniel?

    Not really the point....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Not really the point....
    Oh I know, was just curious. It is quite clear that Arabs etc are being discriminated against on every level in Israel.


  • Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Michael Massive Chisel


    Not really the point....

    It's even worse if he only said his name was Daniel. Not that the case isn't horrific anyway.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    bluewolf wrote: »
    It's even worse if he only said his name was Daniel. Not that the case isn't horrific anyway.
    Thats what I was getting at tbh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    This is a bizarre case to say the least, and is reminisecent of stuff that use to happen in the US, when they had segregation. Juan Cole had some interesting stuff on this over at his blog:

    Israeli Court Punishes Palestinian-Israeli for Passing


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    I read another article and he said he said his name was Daniel, but its ridiculous either way, the womans obviously a dirty tramp anyway, :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭derfderf


    There's a thread in after hours about this too. If u think about it there'd basically be millions in jail if lying to get someone in the sack is classed as rape.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    derfderf wrote: »
    There's a thread in after hours about this too. If u think about it there'd basically be millions in jail if lying to get someone in the sack is classed as rape.
    Certainly I would agree that it shouldn't be called rape but it is not unreasonable that society should take a dim view of certain lies in such circumstances. For example if a man (or woman!) concealed that they were married then I think it reasonable that a course of legal action be available to the other party, but probably through a civil court rather than a criminal one.
    Of course in this case, the difficulty with the lie is that it would only be offensive to someone of a racist or bigoted bent. And however unsavoury such views are, it is not illegal to hold him.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Fremen


    There are certain cases where it's reasonable to prosecute someone for lying to get sex. There was a case in the US where a man's twin brother slept with the man's wife while pretending to be him.

    This bizzare case isn't quite so cut-and-dried either.

    At any rate, the case in hand is ****ed up beyond belief.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭spikeprint


    Its funny, because Israel has been f***ing Palestine for years against their will.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Already a thread on this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭spikeprint


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Already a thread on this.

    And? Now there's two.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    spikeprint wrote: »
    And? Now there's two.

    We only need one thread to discuss it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭spikeprint


    Why? I like discussing it here. Why can there only be one thread? Some get clogged with too many people, a smaller number is nice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭mrboswell


    lugha wrote: »
    Certainly I would agree that it shouldn't be called rape but it is not unreasonable that society should take a dim view of certain lies in such circumstances. For example if a man (or woman!) concealed that they were married then I think it reasonable that a course of legal action be available to the other party, but probably through a civil court rather than a criminal one.
    Of course in this case, the difficulty with the lie is that it would only be offensive to someone of a racist or bigoted bent. And however unsavoury such views are, it is not illegal to hold him.

    Taking a dim view is fine but to take legal action over someone saying they are not married is a bit of a joke. As you point out its not illegal to hold unsavory views OR to say you are not married.
    Fremen wrote: »
    There are certain cases where it's reasonable to prosecute someone for lying to get sex. There was a case in the US where a man's twin brother slept with the man's wife while pretending to be him.

    This bizzare case isn't quite so cut-and-dried either.

    At any rate, the case in hand is ****ed up beyond belief.

    Yes there are certain cases where a minor is involved or even possibly lying about your sex - do you remember that tv program "There's Something About Miriam"? Well the contestants took a case against the shows producers where they alleged conspiracy to commit sexual assault, defamation, breach of contract, and personal injury in the form of psychological and emotional damage.

    In that case it would be reasonable to say that the contestants were led on a merry dance.
    But if we are going to start taking cases against everyone who tells a lie on a Friday or Saturday night then we may as well ban alcohol as well.


    Lets be look at it this way - rape is an assault by a person involving sexual intercourse with another person without that person's consent.

    The guy lied about his name but didn't rape her in any sense of the word. She consented and thats it. He should be acquitted and she should possibly be charged with being stupid.

    It really is a case of Israel believing its own bull.
    Makes me sick that they can get away with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    mrboswell wrote: »
    Taking a dim view is fine but to take legal action over someone saying they are not married is a bit of a joke. As you point out its not illegal to hold unsavory views OR to say you are not married.
    But we already do acknowledge in law that emotional distress is something that an injured party might be compensated for. You seem sympathetic to the boys in the case where a transsexual disguised the truth, as “it would be reasonable to say that the contestants were led on a merry dance”. But surely telling someone you are single when you are not is also a dance most merry? And why is a prejudice against transsexuals more acceptable than a prejudice against Palestinians?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭mrboswell


    lugha wrote: »
    But we already do acknowledge in law that emotional distress is something that an injured party might be compensated for. You seem sympathetic to the boys in the case where a transsexual disguised the truth, as “it would be reasonable to say that the contestants were led on a merry dance”. But surely telling someone you are single when you are not is also a dance most merry? And why is a prejudice against transsexuals more acceptable than a prejudice against Palestinians?

    Well it's certainly not as orchestrated - they organised a whole show just to deceive the contestants. Personally I'd be more confused/angry if I unknowingly had sex with a transexual as opposed to a Palestinian or any a person of other religious background. But thats because I'm definitely not attracted to Transexuals as opposed to prejudiced towards them.

    If "Daniel" had gone to the same effort to manipulate the woman then I would say fair enough.

    Anyway its still not rape by any sense of the word.

    Here's hoping for a more secular society in Israel.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    mrboswell wrote: »
    Here's hoping for a more secular society in Israel.

    Slightly aside, in Ireland, an underaged boy and an underaged girl sleeping together results in rape charges for the boy and a telling off for the girl.
    I'd include Ireland in your hopes if I were you.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Fremen


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Slightly aside, in Ireland, an underaged boy and an underaged girl sleeping together results in rape charges for the boy and a telling off for the girl.
    I'd include Ireland in your hopes if I were you.

    Seriously? Have you got a link for more information? That's absolutely shocking.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Fremen wrote: »
    Seriously? Have you got a link for more information? That's absolutely shocking.

    Law decreeing this state of affairs was passed by the Justice Minister at the beginning of this year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Law decreeing this state of affairs was passed by the Justice Minister at the beginning of this year.

    Can you point to the particular law?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Essexboy


    dvpower wrote: »
    Can you point to the particular law?

    Defilement of a child aged under 17 years
    Section 3 of the Criminal Law (Sex Offences) Act 2006 (pdf) as amended by Section 5 of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) (Amendment) Act 2007 (pdf) makes it a criminal offence to engage or attempt to engage in a sexual act with a child under 17 years. The maximum sentence is five years, ten years if the accused is a person in authority. A person in authority means:

    A parent, step-parent, guardian, grandparent, uncle or aunt of the victim, or
    any person acting in loco parentis (in place of parent or parents) to the victim, or
    any person responsible for the education, supervision or welfare of the victim.
    The maximum sentence is greater for a second or subsequent offence.

    The accused may argue that he or she honestly believed that the child was aged 17 years or over. The court must then consider whether or not that belief was reasonable. It is not a defence to show that the child consented to the sexual act.

    The consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions is required for any prosecution of a child under the age of 17 years for this offence. A person who is convicted of this offence and is not more than two years older than the victim is not subject to the requirements of the Sex Offenders Act 2001. This means they will not have their name placed on the Sex Offenders Register.

    A girl aged under 17 years who has sexual intercourse may not be convicted of an offence on that ground alone.
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/criminal-law/criminal-offences/law_on_sex_offences_in_ireland


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    There was a big debate around the time the law about sex between underage boys and girls was passed here.

    I think Justin is correct in his statement. But it would be great if we could get back on topic.

    It just shows how utterly deranged the mentality of many in Israel has become if they think there is any validity to this prosecution. Seriously, people lie to each other all the time. This man wasn't prosecuted because he lied to this woman, but because he was an "arab" and she was aghast at having slept with one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭mrboswell


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Slightly aside, in Ireland, an underaged boy and an underaged girl sleeping together results in rape charges for the boy and a telling off for the girl.
    I'd include Ireland in your hopes if I were you.

    Oh I do - although we are a little further down along that road.

    In the above case, particularly if the persons are in question are both of the same age, both should be treated equally.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭mrboswell


    Memnoch wrote: »
    There was a big debate around the time the law about sex between underage boys and girls was passed here.

    I think Justin is correct in his statement. But it would be great if we could get back on topic.

    It just shows how utterly deranged the mentality of many in Israel has become if they think there is any validity to this prosecution. Seriously, people lie to each other all the time. This man wasn't prosecuted because he lied to this woman, but because he was an "arab" and she was aghast at having slept with one.

    Indeed - it makes you wonder if there would have been a big deal made of it if a) the man was Israeli but still lied about his name or b) he was Israeli but not Jewish...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    mrboswell wrote: »
    Indeed - it makes you wonder if there would have been a big deal made of it if a) the man was Israeli but still lied about his name or b) he was Israeli but not Jewish...

    I suppose this is the kind of problem that occurs when you allow arabs to mix in the general population and they look like "one of us."

    Best to keep them well segregated if you ask me. Good, innocent jewish girls need to be protected from these bastards.


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