Antisocial behaviour - whats the law?

Julie

Does anybody know what the law is regarding anti-social behaviour in Ireland. A well known ‘undesirable’ family have recently moved in to my mums road which she is terribly upset about. They’ve already stolen a few cars from the area and have had violence involving knives inside the house where the police and forensics had to be called out. The entire road want this family to move out asap but the property is rented and the landlord doesn’t give a to$$ about who is in the house. The area is generally a regular middle class area so this family stick out like a sore thumb.

So what can be done, is there any way of forcing the landlord to get rid of the tenants? Regarding the legal side of things, if this family misbehave, is that legal ground to get them out of the area, what kind of misbehaving would they need to do to qualify as ‘anti-social’ and would it be a police or else a council issue?

Thanks!

bobbysands81

Julie wrote: »

Does anybody know what the law is regarding anti-social behaviour in Ireland. A well known ‘undesirable’ family have recently moved in to my mums road which she is terribly upset about. They’ve already stolen a few cars from the area and have had violence involving knives inside the house where the police and forensics had to be called out. The entire road want this family to move out asap but the property is rented and the landlord doesn’t give a to$$ about who is in the house. The area is generally a regular middle class area so this family stick out like a sore thumb.

So what can be done, is there any way of forcing the landlord to get rid of the tenants? Regarding the legal side of things, if this family misbehave, is that legal ground to get them out of the area, what kind of misbehaving would they need to do to qualify as ‘anti-social’ and would it be a police or else a council issue?

Thanks!

Look up section 35 in this Act published last year.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0022/index.html

Keep a record of every single transgression and ring the Local Authority and Gardai every time they break the law.

Julie

Thanks Bobby! It's not local authority housing though - it's privately rented?

bobbysands81

Julie wrote: »

Thanks Bobby! It's not local authority housing though - it's privately rented?

Julie,

Apologies, I'm mixing my Chapter 4's and Part 4's up!!!

In this instance it's a Part 4 not a Chapter 4 (that I alluded to earlier) so please ignore my last post!

It's the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 that should be of use especially Section 15 and 16:

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a2704.pdf

As it's privately rented then you can take up a third party dispute resolution with the PRTB, more info here - http://www.prtb.ie/disputes.htm (see info on third party resolution).

Apologies for earlier incorrect info.

TouchingVirus

Julie wrote: »

They’ve already stolen a few cars from the area

Proof?

A well known ‘undesirable’ family have recently moved in to my mums road which she is terribly upset about.
....
The entire road want this family to move out asap but the property is rented and the landlord doesn’t give a to$$ about who is in the house. The area is generally a regular middle class area so this family stick out like a sore thumb.

I don't think whatever-this-is is grounds for a dispute myself, if it was then all the lower-classes would live ghettos

Maybe I'm wrong though?

Julie

Thanks again Bobby, I'll check that out. Though on thinking about it they must be getting some sort of state assisstance towards the rent.

Virus - I know where you're coming from when you ask about the proof of car theft etc - thats why I asked in my original post as to what exactly constitutes anti social behaviour as the car theft is hard to prove and the violence happened inside the house and did not affect anybody else. Knowing this families history though I've no doubt that there will be harrassment and indimidation of the neighbours sooner rather than later and I also have no doubt that they will trash the house sooner rather than later - which might just get the idiot landlord to think again about his tenants.

TouchingVirus

Julie wrote: »

Virus - I know where you're coming from when you ask about the proof of car theft etc - thats why I asked in my original post as to what exactly constitutes anti social behaviour as the car theft is hard to prove and the violence happened inside the house and did not affect anybody else. Knowing this families history though I've no doubt that there will be harrassment and indimidation of the neighbours sooner rather than later and I also have no doubt that they will trash the house sooner rather than later - which might just get the idiot landlord to think again about his tenants.

I know what it's like when some 'undesirable' moves in nearby, but I think everybody deserves a chance. Wild (or maybe grounded) Speculation isn't really the type of stuff that get's people kicked out of houses. It really is a case of sitting back and waiting to see if they step out of line. It'd wanna be a really bad family if they sh*t on their own doorstep by robbing neighbours cars etc

Julie

I know Virus, and I'm more of the 'wait and see opinion' myself but a lot of people in the area are seriously panicing and getting their knickers in a twist. So I'm trying to get an idea of what might be hard and fast evidence in a case like this and what gets chucked out the window like the car theft. Cos if the panicing neighbours jump the gun too early and start some sort of official dispute without any concrete evidence then it all goes down the tubes.

Millie

TouchingVirus wrote: »

I It'd wanna be a really bad family if they sh*t on their own doorstep by robbing neighbours cars etc

This happened me so nothing surprises me with "families" like these.

Julie, I am currently undergoing a struggle with the landlord who moved a scumbag family into the neighbourhood that ruined life for every one.
The landlord didn't care as he was happily getting his rent from the HSE and the intimidation and general ****e we had to put up with while he lined his pockets is unthinkable.

I put up with the fear for about a year and a half but when they threatened to rob my car I involved the police.
However the retribution for doing so was that they did in fact break into my house and indeed rob my car.
I got in contact with the PRTB who gave me the landlords details and I then sent him a solicitors letter.
This did get the landlord to finally act and get them moved (however I had to leave my house for 6wks while this was going on for fear of further retributions!). And I thought that was that...however......

The LL agreed that they would be more particular about how the next tenants however they put drug dealers into the house.
So after much toing & froing these now also have been moved along & we are in fear of the next "family" he will put in there.

My only advise is to document every single little detail as this is what will stand to you in time.
The HSE are a disgarce and will not help you in any shape or form and when my solicitor contacted them the stated it was nothing to do with them as all they did was means test the tenants and provide the necessary funding for rent.
The only way we found to deal with this is pester the landlord and make life as difficult for him as possible and get a solicitor involved if needs be.

It really is a disgrace what this Governement/Govenment bodies/Councils and money grabbing LL's are left away with.

Graces7

Millie wrote: »

This happened me so nothing surprises me with "families" like these.

Julie, I am currently undergoing a struggle with the landlord who moved a scumbag family into the neighbourhood that ruined life for every one.
The landlord didn't care as he was happily getting his rent from the HSE and the intimidation and general ****e we had to put up with while he lined his pockets is unthinkable.

I put up with the fear for about a year and a half but when they threatened to rob my car I involved the police.
However the retribution for doing so was that they did in fact break into my house and indeed rob my car.
I got in contact with the PRTB who gave me the landlords details and I then sent him a solicitors letter.
This did get the landlord to finally act and get them moved (however I had to leave my house for 6wks while this was going on for fear of further retributions!). And I thought that was that...however......

The LL agreed that they would be more particular about how the next tenants however they put drug dealers into the house.
So after much toing & froing these now also have been moved along & we are in fear of the next "family" he will put in there.

My only advise is to document every single little detail as this is what will stand to you in time.
The HSE are a disgarce and will not help you in any shape or form and when my solicitor contacted them the stated it was nothing to do with them as all they did was means test the tenants and provide the necessary funding for rent.
The only way we found to deal with this is pester the landlord and make life as difficult for him as possible and get a solicitor involved if needs be.

It really is a disgrace what this Governement/Govenment bodies/Councils and money grabbing LL's are left away with.

Millie; that is appalling; so sorry.

We are getting some intimidation here; we reported the young farmer who has an( illegally erected without planning permission) large metal shed opposite for animal abuse.

he has waged a war against us in every way he can; sending an off-duty garda pal round to try to intimidate us to leave....getting his kids to goad our dogs... the day before the eviction notice arrived - and the landlord is a neighbour - he threatened me with assault and the gardai were involved.

Then someone told Social welfare we are not eligible for Rent Allowance......so we had all that to deal with.

We are leaving as soon as we can get the money together to do so.

Millie

Grace, so sorry to hear about your situation.

It really is awful how screwed up some people are.

The fact that the LL that I am dealing with know's what we have went through and still has so little respect that he did it to us again and may even do so in the future makes him more of a scumbag than anyone he has put in there.

I don't know how some people can sleep at night.......

gurramok

TouchingVirus wrote: »

I know what it's like when some 'undesirable' moves in nearby, but I think everybody deserves a chance. Wild (or maybe grounded) Speculation isn't really the type of stuff that get's people kicked out of houses. It really is a case of sitting back and waiting to see if they step out of line. It'd wanna be a really bad family if they sh*t on their own doorstep by robbing neighbours cars etc

You indeed see this issue through rose tinted glasses. Try living beside them for once.

The HSE and councils don't care who they move into any type of accommodation. If the tenants cause serious problems, they're moved onto another estate instead of chucking them out on their ear as after all taxpayers money is paying for their accommodation.

Millie

gurramok wrote: »

You indeed see this issue through rose tinted glasses. Try living beside them for once.

The HSE and councils don't care who they move into any type of accommodation. If the tenants cause serious problems, they're moved onto another estate instead of chucking them out on their ear as after all taxpayers money is paying for their accommodation.

That unfortunately is the truth.
Both "families" that were moved from the house that caused us issues were moved to even better accommodation to continue they're reign of terror and drug dealing....no retribution what so ever for either of them.

I shouldn't get bitter about it but when I think of what we went through and to this day two years on we are the ones still fighting the cause when all we want is to live peacefully and safely in our own home.

Julie

Yes the whole retribution aspect is a realy big problem, sorry you had to go through that Millie. There's a strong residents association in my mums area who are acting on this so it would a dispute would be taken on by the association and not by an individual. But of course the accossiation is made up of individuals.

I think the best course of action would be to buildup a case book of evidence if evidence presents itself, to formally approach the LL with this evidence and tell him that it would be taken to the PRTB if they didn't act to evict the tenant. Hopefully that would be enough to scare them in to action.

TouchingVirus

gurramok wrote: »

You indeed see this issue through rose tinted glasses. Try living beside them for once.

A wild assumption there. I lived beside dodgy families and suspected drug dealers for 12 years. As far as neighbours go, they weren't all bad. Sure, they didn't really "belong" in the area but they were grand to us, despite most of those on the road being of the same opinion as the OP's mother when they moved in initially.

gurramok

TouchingVirus wrote: »

A wild assumption there. I lived beside dodgy families and suspected drug dealers for 12 years. As far as neighbours go, they weren't all bad. Sure, they didn't really "belong" in the area but they were grand to us, despite most of those on the road being of the same opinion as the OP's mother when they moved in initially.

The OP mother is not a snob. And neither is mine. My own mother had to put up with them next door as well, it was hell for her. And it was hell because the council moved the dodgy family in the first place and had the same attitude as your posts, living in ivory towers.

A respectful drug dealer, thats a new one!

TouchingVirus

gurramok wrote: »

The OP mother is not a snob. And neither is mine. My own mother had to put up with them next door as well, it was hell for her. And it was hell because the council moved the dodgy family in the first place and had the same attitude as your posts, living in ivory towers.

Firstly, I never said the mother was a snob.

I honestly think you're overreacting here. I don't live in an ivory tower, yet another wild accusation just because I disagree with your view. I'm of the opinion that just because the family has a name for itself, doesn't mean that you shouldn't give them a chance.

There isn't a place for some vigilante eviction movement, and expecting laws to that effect is unrealistic. If you want somebody to be removed from a house you need them to actually do something anti-social, something proveable, something tangible and not rely on stuff they did in other houses, other areas or their reputation. Sure, if they start playing music at 4am loudly waking up people, toss crap into the garden over the wall, sh*t on your doorstep and generally take the p*ss then you've got legitimate reasons for looking for something to be done about it. I would also seek action in those circumstances.

Until that happens though you can't and shouldn't be allowed to pre-empt what you suspect they'll do with an eviction notice. You're not talking about something trivial like banning wearing a hoodie in a shopping centre because they're associated with anti-social behaviour, you're talking about kicking somebody out of a house - their house. So excuse me for wanting to give somebody the benefit of the doubt.

Here's a flipside to my first example (which was in Tallaght by the way, so I'm no snob myself). I currently live in an estate that's probably around 40 years old. Most people living here are retired and own their houses. The neighbours on both sides hate us. They never say hello, despite us saying hello to them and having never crossed paths in anger. Instead they ignore us. They do not have a hearing problem because one of them had a gripe with us over how the front garden was kept (not our issue, it's the landlords as set out in the lease) which was promptly addressed. Apparently we're 'bringing down the street', and all we're doing is living here. There's no loud music, no parties, very few visitors and we keep ourselves to ourselves. Even if theyir opinions are based on the young people who lived here before us and they've tarred us with the same brush, should they be allowed to ring the landlord to complain because we're bringing down the street? Should they be allowed to go to the PRTB to bring action against the landlord? Of course they shouldn't, we've not done anything yet.

A respectful drug dealer, thats a new one!

:rolleyes: Open your eyes, the world isn't black & white.

And to bring it back to the OP - Julie, if the intimidation or harrassment starts, report it to the Gardai, lodge a complaint with the Landlord and if necessary the PRTB. Until then, you're out of luck as far as I know.

gurramok

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Here's a flipside to my first example (which was in Tallaght by the way, so I'm no snob myself). I currently live in an estate that's probably around 40 years old. Most people living here are retired and own their houses. The neighbours on both sides hate us. They never say hello, despite us saying hello to them and having never crossed paths in anger. Instead they ignore us. They do not have a hearing problem because one of them had a gripe with us over how the front garden was kept (not our issue, it's the landlords as set out in the lease) which was promptly addressed. Apparently we're 'bringing down the street', and all we're doing is living here. There's no loud music, no parties, very few visitors and we keep ourselves to ourselves. Even if theyir opinions are based on the young people who lived here before us and they've tarred us with the same brush, should they be allowed to ring the landlord to complain because we're bringing down the street? Should they be allowed to go to the PRTB to bring action against the landlord? Of course they shouldn't, we've not done anything yet.

:rolleyes: Open your eyes, the world isn't black & white.

And to bring it back to the OP - Julie, if the intimidation or harrassment starts, report it to the Gardai, lodge a complaint with the Landlord and if necessary the PRTB. Until then, you're out of luck as far as I know.

Big difference from your neighbours not liking you over trivial things to you been engaged in acts of criminal behaviour, you fail to see this.

TouchingVirus

gurramok wrote: »

Big difference from your neighbours not liking you over trivial things to you been engaged in acts of criminal behaviour, you fail to see this.

These people, and let's not forget that they are people, regardless of their situation, have a right to live in that house until such a time as they do something that gives grounds to evict by the landlord, or something the neighbours can pounce on to force the matter. They've not done anything so far, so they're entitled to live there no matter what the neighbours on the street think. You fail to see this.

I guess we'll just have to disagree.

gurramok

TouchingVirus wrote: »

These people, and let's not forget that they are people, regardless of their situation, have a right to live in that house until such a time as they do something that gives grounds to evict by the landlord, or something the neighbours can pounce on to force the matter. They've not done anything so far, so they're entitled to live there no matter what the neighbours on the street think. You fail to see this.

I guess we'll just have to disagree.

Never thought i'd see the day someone tolerating anti-social behaviour.

Your solution is to move them around to the next victim, my solution is that they should lose their entitlement to a house which the taxpayers are paying for.

TouchingVirus

gurramok wrote: »

Never thought i'd see the day someone tolerating anti-social behaviour.

They've not done anything anti-social at their new address. How can I tolerate something they haven't done?

I'm unsubbing from this thread now. It was a nice exchange of views but it's clear the dream is over, we're going around in circles.