McDowell calls for 12 July to be public holiday in Ireland

bombadil

Former Minister for Justice and Progressive Democrats leader Michael McDowell has said that 12 July should be made a national holiday in the south as well as in Northern Ireland.
Mr McDowell said that if we were genuine republicans and if the orange panel in the flag meant anything, then we had to consider building an inclusive society.
He was speaking at the MacGill Summer School in Co Donegal.

Seriously this had to be a late April Fools joke... As much as I applaud the idea of a day off! Celebrating the 12th and defeat at the Battle of the Boyne is surely a bit much.. given it led the way to years of oppression, the introduction of the Penal Laws and discrimination against catholics which lasted in Northern Ireland until recent decades.... a big PC step too far!

bdunne

I liked the letter in Saturday's Irish Times, inviting McDowell and McAleese to apply for membership to one of the orders. Pair of eejits.

sundaypapers

Shouldn't McDowell and co be calling for the 12th to be a national holiday in the rest of the UK?

flogen

Moved to Politics.

LordSutch

. . . GREEN . . . . . WHITE . . . . . ORANGE


................................. ^
. 17th March . . . .Peace . . . . . 12th July

aDeener

LordSutch wrote: »

. . . GREEN . . . . . WHITE . . . . . ORANGE


................................. ^
. 17th March . . . .Peace . . . . . 12th July

catholics do not have a monopoly on st. patrick, we would be better off trying to get rid of that silly misconception than celebrating a day in honour of bigotry

maccored

17th march? what's that got to do with anyone?

Nationalists in the north dont view the 12th as a public holiday. you;d think mr mcdowell would realise that

Sleepy

TBH, it'd make more sense to do away with a religious holiday like St. Patricks day and replace it with Arthurs Day imho.

Fratton Fred

bombadil wrote: »

Former Minister for Justice and Progressive Democrats leader Michael McDowell has said that 12 July should be made a national holiday in the south as well as in Northern Ireland.
Mr McDowell said that if we were genuine republicans and if the orange panel in the flag meant anything, then we had to consider building an inclusive society.
He was speaking at the MacGill Summer School in Co Donegal.

Seriously this had to be a late April Fools joke... As much as I applaud the idea of a day off! Celebrating the 12th and defeat at the Battle of the Boyne is surely a bit much.. given it led the way to years of oppression, the introduction of the Penal Laws and discrimination against catholics which lasted in Northern Ireland until recent decades.... a big PC step too far!

fwiw, I think you will find most of those marching were "Oppressed" just as much by the Penal Laws (if not more) than Roman Catholics were.

Whilst I don't agree that the 12th should be a holiday, at least lets get some basic facts right.

Iwasfrozen

The 12th of July should never be made a holiday in the south. I'm by no means a nationalist but celebrating the event which lead the introduction of the penel laws and, inevitably, the famine is a step too far even for me.

Kev_ps3

Typical of that traitor.

Sulmac

First of all, the thread title is incredibly misleading. It should be "McDowell calls for 12 July to be public holiday in the Republic/ROI" or something.

Anyway, to the point - why would anyone support this? The Orange Order are a small, bigoted organisation which in no way represent all Irish Protestants, on either side of the border. It's not "inclusive" at all and never will be since non-Protestants can't even join the Order.

It's not comparable to Saint Patrick's Day (in the Republic, at least) at all.

Red_Marauder

Well to put things in perspective....

McDowell is a Republican and is also in favour of a United Ireland. Many people on this island share his views.

If there is ever to be a United Ireland, our willingness as Republicans and/ or as Nationalists (for those of us who may subscribe to these outlooks) must first be apparent to those in Northern Ireland who are not prepared for such a Union as things stand.

It seems perfectly clear to me, or anyone else who has read what McDowell actually said, that this is all he was implying. I'm not sure if another public holiday is exactly what we need, but I certainly do think that more inclusivity could be shown towards loyalists/ unionists and the Protestant and Orange traditions in this Republic in many different ways.

Such alliances also serve to copperfasten peace between both traditions.

One particularly striking quote by McDowell during his address was

we Republicans cannot remain as passive spectators when we are called on to be friends

Link to article

jimmycrackcorm

Sulmac wrote: »

First of all, the thread title is incredibly misleading. It should be "McDowell calls for 12 July to be public holiday in the Republic/ROI" or something.

Anyway, to the point - why would anyone support this?

Because I'd like the day off.

Dr. Baltar

I would have no problem with us celebrating a holiday for Irish Protestants. After all, many of the famous Irish Nationalists were Protestants themselves such as Robert Emmet.

However, I will not support a holiday for the Orange Order which is nothing but a bigoted organisation. Let us acknowledge and befriend Ulstermen, but the Orange Order has no place in the Republic.

sceptre

I've changed the thread title for accuracy and usefulness:)

/mod

pablo_escobar

Orange order aren't really a bigoted organization, anyone of any color or religion can join or start their own orange lodge.



even mohawks in canada are orange members



irish people should embrace the orange order.
think about it...imagine if everyone on the whole island marched on the 12th..forget about what we perceive it to be about. dress up in orange, get your drum out and march! dance like a mohawk! end of story!!!



don't forget the ray bans!

sceptre

pablo_escobar wrote: »

Orange order aren't really a bigoted organization, anyone of any color or religion can join or start their own orange lodge.

Not Roman Catholics or Mormons (for example, there are others - all non-trinitarian and non-creedal denominations are excluded). That's just considering the Christian religions incidentally - the non-Christian ones are excluded as well due to a lack of "a humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man" with the non-Christian religions (er, obviously). I suggest selecting a different foundation for that house you're building.

Red_Marauder

Am I missing something?

The 12th of July is not solely a day for the Orange Order, people.

It's a day of celebration (if at all) for British and Irish Protestants who wish to celebrate it. It is not the sole property of the orange lodge.

Denerick

I fully agree with McDowell and am glad that someone has had the guts to say something so patriotic.

Ireland will never be a united nation so long as it continues to treat her lost tribe in the north as a pariah.

pablo_escobar

sceptre wrote:

Not Roman Catholics or Mormons..

I've no evidence the majority of Irish people are devout Roman Catholics who attend mass early on a sunday morning and follow the 10 commandments.

I'd be doubtful Protestant members of the Orange Lodge pray to their God every day just as much as Roman Catholics.

Irish people, ALL irish people really need to let go of this religion malarky...

OK, it's currently known as a day of marching by Protestants...but are we led to believe these so-called "protestants" are genuinely religious people?

Let's just say I go dressed as Muhammad with my sandles, foot long beard, ray bans and lambeg drum..

Are so-called "protestants" or "roman catholics" going to attack me for that?

What if I dress up like the pope and march with a sash around my neck? would i get attacked for that too?

How far has Ireland really moved on? if at all...

If i'm attacked, does that not prove how shallow, weak and insecure people in Ireland really are?

And would my actions if replicated in mass numbers, protected by the state police not demoralize the the hardcore orange order members?

Of course it would..that's the whole idea, so let's do it.

Because I agree it's silly to even argue about, let Irish people embrace this day and soon it will be forgotten about, in history where it belongs.

possibly some orange members have homosexual tendencies but i can't speculate.

aDeener

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I would have no problem with us celebrating a holiday for Irish Protestants. After all, many of the famous Irish Nationalists were Protestants themselves such as Robert Emmet.

However, I will not support a holiday for the Orange Order which is nothing but a bigoted organisation. Let us acknowledge and befriend Ulstermen, but the Orange Order has no place in the Republic.

I somehow think Robert Emmett wouldn't have much time for the OO

hitbit

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Well to put things in perspective....

McDowell is a Republican and is also in favour of a United Ireland. Many people on this island share his views.

If there is ever to be a United Ireland, our willingness as Republicans and/ or as Nationalists (for those of us who may subscribe to these outlooks) must first be apparent to those in Northern Ireland who are not prepared for such a Union as things stand.

It seems perfectly clear to me, or anyone else who has read what McDowell actually said, that this is all he was implying. I'm not sure if another public holiday is exactly what we need, but I certainly do think that more inclusivity could be shown towards loyalists/ unionists and the Protestant and Orange traditions in this Republic in many different ways.

Such alliances also serve to copperfasten peace between both traditions.

One particularly striking quote by McDowell during his address was

Link to article

Why should we appease these bigoted people. You don't see them trying to appease us. All they do is make demands of us while their moto remains Paisleys " No Surrender ". I for one do not want a united Ireland. I'd build a Berlin wall between us.

hitbit

Essexboy

The man is an ass with no knowledge of Northern Ireland.

His suggestion is reminiscent of those who claimed that introduction of divorce in the Republic would strengthen ties with Unionists. It did not make a blind bit of difference: neither would making 12 July a national holiday.

Manach

Whilst normally I'd not argue against an extra holiday, the 12th of July has historically been linked to Protestant cultural domination.
Perhaps a neutral day which celebrates a common shared heritage, for instance an Armistice day to commemerate WWI which Martin McGuinness had stated was a wound shared by nationalist and unionists.

bobbysands81

pablo_escobar wrote: »

Orange order aren't really a bigoted organization, anyone of any color or religion can join or start their own orange lodge.



even mohawks in canada are orange members



irish people should embrace the orange order.
think about it...imagine if everyone on the whole island marched on the 12th..forget about what we perceive it to be about. dress up in orange, get your drum out and march! dance like a mohawk! end of story!!!



don't forget the ray bans!

You're mental if you believe your own words.

PeterIanStaker

perhaps McDowell should stay out of politics like he said he would in 2007?

pablo_escobar

bobbysands81 wrote:

You're mental if you believe your own words.

Only because you can't see past your own foolishness and ignorance over the issue.

I'm certain that if all Irish people celebrated this day, the hardcore element of orange order would be demoralized so much, they would never insist on marching through so-called "Roman Catholic" neighborhoods again.

Why? ...did you learn nothing growing up?
Did your parents never insist your kid brother or sister play with a toy until they became bored?

Most of the people involved in marching are not religious people, they're not "protestant" they're just bored little kids with nothing better to do.

The individuals who identify themselves as "protestant" march because they see how foolish so-called "Roman Catholics" like you get annoyed.

It's satisfying to see you get all emotionally upset about a stupid march, that's why they do it, there's no other reason.

You're simply too easily annoyed and that's the joy in marching..

If you people had any brains, there would be no problem at all.

Now, if you enjoyed the march just as much as they did, they would think "oh my god, they like marching...what will i do now?" get it?

OhNoYouDidn't

Denerick wrote: »

I fully agree with McDowell and am glad that someone has had the guts to say something so patriotic.

Ireland will never be a united nation so long as it continues to treat her lost tribe in the north as a pariah.

THEY are the sectarian bigots, not us....

pablo_escobar

You know what i'd do if I saw an Orange March? I'd laugh my balls off at how stupid they look, that's what I'd do.

Amazing..truly amazing how so many people could get emotionally upset about a bunch of tossers with orange ribbons around there necks banging a lambeg drum....lol

It's nothing!! what the fck is anyone even complaining about?

LordSutch

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

However, I will not support a holiday for the Orange Order which is nothing but a bigoted organisation. Let us acknowledge and befriend Ulstermen, but the Orange Order has no place in the Republic.

And yet our flag aspires to include the Orange.

Denerick

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

THEY are the sectarian bigots, not us....

You really believe that, don't you?

Denerick

LordSutch wrote: »

And yet our flag aspires to include the Orange.

Also, listen to this man. If only there were fewer bigots and more people like him in this country.

Kev_ps3

LordSutch wrote: »

And yet our flag aspires to include the Orange.

Well our flag is wrong.. Should be changed imo

Denerick

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Well our flag is wrong.. Should be changed imo

Pathetic.

robby^5

Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather not have a national day to celebrate the ushering in of religious bigotry on this island.

I'm fairly opposed to any event that celebrates the killing of others in the name of religion.

maccored

pablo_escobar wrote: »

You know what i'd do if I saw an Orange March? I'd laugh my balls off at how stupid they look, that's what I'd do.

then they'd come over and kick your face in. I remember a friend once getting caught up trying to cross the street just as an orange parade was passing. As far as I can remember, he got to the other side with a broken jaw. Lovely people obviously those marchers.

Iomega Man

Denerick wrote: »

Pathetic.

Why is it "pathetic"?

I'd say a majority of the population in the north of this country would rather see the orange removed anyway.

Denerick

Iomega Man wrote: »

Why is it "pathetic"?

I'd say a majority of the population in the north of this country would rather see the orange removed anyway.

Its pathetic to change the tricolour for the sake of religious bigotry.

Your knee jerk hatred of anyone who professes to be of the Protestant religion is clear and obvious. Your kind are the reason why Ireland will never be a united nation.

reprazant

aDeener wrote: »

catholics do not have a monopoly on st. patrick, we would be better off trying to get rid of that silly misconception than celebrating a day in honour of bigotry

The Orange Order do not have a monopoly on the 12th.

I find it amazing that people would not want to mark as a holiday the date of a battle which had such a profound effect on the history of Ireland.

monkeypants

I have nothing against the idea as long as it's implemented properly and becomes Ireland's 10th public holiday. I want my lie-in.

Iomega Man

Denerick wrote: »

Its pathetic to change the tricolour for the sake of religious bigotry.

Your knee jerk hatred of anyone who professes to be of the Protestant religion is clear and obvious. Your kind are the reason why Ireland will never be a united nation.

Mods..can you sort this out NOW?
My knee jerk hatred of anyone who professes to be of the Protestant religion..WTF

reprazant

Iomega Man wrote: »

Why is it "pathetic"?

I'd say a majority of the population in the north of this country would rather see the orange removed anyway.

What exactly is this based on?

Are you saying that the majority of people in the North would rather that the part of the tricolour which represents those of the protest faith in this land would rather that it was not of the flag?

I take it you have done some research on this or at least have some sort of a source to back up this preposterous claim?

Fratton Fred

robby^5 wrote: »

Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather not have a national day to celebrate the ushering in of religious bigotry on this island.

I'm fairly opposed to any event that celebrates the killing of others in the name of religion.

I wonder how we would all be feeling about the 12th of July if Billy had lost and the shoe would have been on the other foot, so to speak.

BlaasForRafa

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wonder how we would all be feeling about the 12th of July if Billy had lost and the shoe would have been on the other foot, so to speak.

Whichever, I wouldn't mind an extra day off work

Fuhrer

LordSutch wrote: »

And yet our flag aspires to include the Orange.

What an awful point you make.


If you deciede that the Orange Order = Orange on the flag, then I guess the green must mean the IRA.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

I fully agree with McDowell and am glad that someone has had the guts to say something so patriotic.

Ireland will never be a united nation so long as it continues to treat her lost tribe in the north as a pariah.

Denerick usually the stuff you post is excellent and thought provoking but this?


I dont think a essentially bigoted organisation like the OO should have any place in any society. Do you? Of course the OO are not the only ones who march, we also have bands commemorating UVF people too.

Would a better idea not be to do something like create a new national holiday, not on the 12th, one which everyone can participate in? The 12th is too sectarian imo.

reprazant

The orange order do not own the 12th.

On that date, a battle occurred which change Irish history. It would seem that his momentous event, which helped create the country we have today, would rather be ignored.

This attitude I find mind-boggling.

LordSutch

Fuhrer wrote: »

What an awful point you make. If you deciede that the Orange Order = Orange on the flag, then I guess the green must mean the IRA.

It is a fact mine Fuhrer that the Tricolour aspires to unite the Green & Orange traditions on this island (White to signify peace between the two). Nobody said anything about the Green = IRA!!!

What are you on about

Fuhrer

LordSutch wrote: »

It is a fact mine Fuhrer that the Tricolour aspires to unite the Green & Orange traditions on this island (White to signify peace between the two). Nobody said anything about the Green = IRA!!!

What are you on about

I know, I was making the point that if the Orange on the flag = The orange order then the green must then = The IRA


Try to keep up.

aDeener

reprazant wrote: »

The orange order do not own the 12th.

On that date, a battle occurred which change Irish history. It would seem that his momentous event, which helped create the country we have today, would rather be ignored.

This attitude I find mind-boggling.

it changed irish history alright, but not for the better. i find it mind boggling as to why anyone would want to celebrate it