How are you graded?.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Simple question really, and I'll give Judo as an example.

The Judoka grades from white through to green belt in the club by displaying a knowledge of the syllabus relevant to the grade. This is NOT done in competition or at national level.

Time taken to get to green in the clubs I've trained is (give or take) two years, after which the judoka's grading is largely taken out of the clubs hands, ie you can not grade in the club from green through to black.

Its largely down to the Judoka to prepare for, and attend national gradings.

For blue & brown your given four fights, of which you MUST win two by ippon or wazari (big scores) or by submission (chokes/strangles, joint locks or hold down).

Only after winning your fights do you go on to get tested on your knowledge of the syllabus again, and again relevant to the grade - plus Kata.

For your black you must win 100 points in 12 months in either national dan gradings or competition (or both). One win by ippon is 10 points, and by Wazari is 7 points.. Before again being tested on the whole syllabus plus Kata.

So from white to green your tested at club level, no fights.

For Blue, Brown & Black you must fight & win your belts - ie, both guys on the mat are fighting for the belt, loser comes back another day.

How is your system graded?.

the drifter

waza kai..

all graded at club level.
green belt can be obtained in 2 years.
time from green too black and be 3-4 years

The black belt grading is over 3 days.
gradings are a mixture of syllabus stand up and ground grappelling and striking as well as fitness.

Fitness levels and syllabus increaces as belts get higher.

Higher grades ( green up) also include knife/weapon defence

disclamer* this post is based in what ive picked up on my two years in the club. Ive never seen anyone above green belt grade as they are behind closed doors.

Performance Martial Arts

Well for us here we have our own kickboxing sylubus(continuos/full contact style)with 8 belt grades from yellow to black and our techniqes get harder as the belts go up and also we have sparring on all our belts with the amount of rounds increasing as you get higher in rank. Our system is also based on time with a minimum time limit for each belt and that also increases as you get higher in rank. We also have details for which our higher ranks ie brown and up must have put in hours of teaching as well as all the other requirements. All in all our journey to black belt should take about 4 years.

cletus

the drifter wrote: »

waza kai..

all graded at club level.
green belt can be obtained in 2 years.
time from green too black and be 3-4 years

The black belt grading is over 3 days.
gradings are a mixture of syllabus stand up and ground grappelling and striking as well as fitness.

Fitness levels and syllabus increaces as belts get higher.

Higher grades ( green up) also include knife/weapon defence

disclamer* this post is based in what ive picked up on my two years in the club. Ive never seen anyone above green belt grade as they are behind closed doors.

how many bb's does Mike have now? What grade is young Mikey at. Tell them Gavin said hi, next time your training

the drifter

Shall do...

wait...should i duck as i say it? :P

young mikey is a black belt as is conal....

so 3 including mike himself....new dojo now too...

SBG Ireland

BJJ (SBGi)

we have a group testing usually twice a year....for those who are borderline i'll have them give it a go. they'll be put in various positions and the important thing is they have an idea of what they should be doing there and are trying to use technique rather than mong.

this article explains the SBGi BJJ belt progression best

http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2007/02/exploring-map.html

...however if its painfully obvious that the guy should be wearing the next belt (has won a couple of big comps or is seriously kicking everyones ass in training a belt ahead of them) then they will get promoted.
in clive's case he kicked my ass so i promoted him to ease my ego

arybvtcw0eolkf

Lads try keep it on topic (please) and we all might learn a little eh!.

BobbyOLeary

Bridger Billions Keyboard wrote: »

For blue & brown your given four fights, of which you MUST win two by ippon or wazari (big scores) or by submission (chokes/strangles, joint locks or hold down).

For Blue, Brown & Black you must fight & win your belts - ie, both guys on the mat are fighting for the belt, loser comes back another day.

Can you go over that for me again? From what I can see you get to fight 4 separate opponents and must win two to progress to a standard syllabus test where you show your stuff off against a compliant partner?

The second bit only mentions two guys though?

And how many would be at each national grading, and do you have to collect points to grade for Blue, Brown or Black?

Sorry for the rake of questions, just really curious, it's very different to BJJ!

arybvtcw0eolkf

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Can you go over that for me again? From what I can see you get to fight 4 separate opponents and must win two to progress to a standard syllabus test where you show your stuff off against a compliant partner?

The second bit only mentions two guys though?

And how many would be at each national grading, and do you have to collect points to grade for Blue, Brown or Black?

Sorry for the rake of questions, just really curious, it's very different to BJJ!

Ok, for blue and brown you have a minimum of four fights of which you must win two. Your not required to gain points during the year for these belts.

Only after you win do you go forward to be tested on technique/syllabus & Kata.

For black you require 100 points (10 points per win by ippon). You can get these from win's in competition and/or national dan grading.

Mostly there'll be separate individual opponents for most of your fights, so if I gave the impression there's only two on a certain belt, sorry for that mistake.

All your fights will be proper fights with a winner & a loser going for the same belt, its not just a display of technique.

Just a point to note, when your tested on technique & Kata its always with a complient partner.

BobbyOLeary

Thanks a million, cleared that up nicely. Just one more please :pac:

Bridger Billions Keyboard wrote: »

You can get these from win's in competition and/or national dan grading.

The Dan grading bit, so can you just attend a dan grading to fight and not to grade? Let's say you've only got 50 points and don't qualify for a BB test, can you still attend just so you can get some points?

Sid_Justice

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Thanks a million, cleared that up nicely. Just one more please :pac:



The Dan grading bit, so can you just attend a dan grading to fight and not to grade? Let's say you've only got 50 points and don't qualify for a BB test, can you still attend just so you can get some points?

yes you can. you can also get batsugan.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sid_Justice wrote: »

yes you can. you can also get batsugan.

Just to expand on that a little..'Batsugan' will be awarded to a fighter with five straight ippons (win's by a full point).

The Judoka then doesn't need to attain the other 50 points but goes straight through to testing. But if the five win's are broken by a loss, or if the officals on the day are snaggy - a wazari, then the judoka must win the extra to make up the 100 points.

Opinicus

Makikomi:

When you're fighting for the 100 points is it in comps like the Irish Open etc?
Do they have to be recognised tournaments by the IJF?
Will you be fighting someone with the exact same belt as you or can it be someone from green and above like I see some comps split into lower kyu/higher kyu?

Thanks.

Khannie

While there aren't belts in Muay Thai, there are different levels. I've noticed quite a few now that I've been at it a while....

Initially you're in the beginners class. Then you progress to the fighters class. Then you progress to fighting amateur. Then C class pro, B class pro and finally A class pro. Paul decides when you get to do each of these things and though there aren't any rules to how quickly you can move from one to the next, there are some things that I've seen which can help move things along (regular and frequent attendance over a period of time, etc.). Obviously you can harass him a bit too, like I do.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Opinicus wrote: »

Makikomi:

When you're fighting for the 100 points is it in comps like the Irish Open etc?
Do they have to be recognised tournaments by the IJF?
Will you be fighting someone with the exact same belt as you or can it be someone from green and above like I see some comps split into lower kyu/higher kyu?

Thanks.

For the 100 points are only needed from brown to black, and can be gained from the like's of The Irish Open (and Northern Irish Open) and international competition, plus on the day of the national dan grading (if you need more points, but if you've got your 100 then its straight into the technical/theory part of the test).

Outside of the Dan grading, ie in competition only fights won against browns and above count, but there's an additional points for beating 2nd Dan's (and above).

For Blue and Brown you'll only fight another blue or brown, it'll be on the day of a grading and your opponent is fighting for the same belt. Competition win's don't count towards your blue or brown belt.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Khannie wrote: »

While there aren't belts in Muay Thai, there are different levels. I've noticed quite a few now that I've been at it a while....

Initially you're in the beginners class. Then you progress to the fighters class. Then you progress to fighting amateur. Then C class pro, B class pro and finally A class pro. Paul decides when you get to do each of these things and though there aren't any rules to how quickly you can move from one to the next, there are some things that I've seen which can help move things along (regular and frequent attendance over a period of time, etc.). Obviously you can harass him a bit too, like I do.

You'll have to excuse my total ignorance, but I thought you wear something on your arm denoting your grade/rank?.

arybvtcw0eolkf

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

The Dan grading bit, so can you just attend a dan grading to fight and not to grade? Let's say you've only got 50 points and don't qualify for a BB test, can you still attend just so you can get some points?

Sorry this one almost slipped by me.

Yes, you can. And a lot do, but in the hope that they'll gain enough points to get to the required 100 points. If you don't get them, its cool as you carry the points through the year - however, if at the end of the year you haven't made the grade (so to speak) you can not carry that years points over into the next!

Thats why its often said the worse guy to fight is the brown belt looking for points towards his BB, because the ante is really high and he/she is highly motivated at this point in time.

Khannie

Bridger Billions Keyboard wrote: »

You'll have to excuse my total ignorance, but I thought you wear something on your arm denoting your grade/rank?.

Nope. When I get in the ring I'm wearing shorts, gloves, cup and a gumshield.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Khannie wrote: »

Nope. When I get in the ring I'm wearing shorts, gloves, cup and a gumshield.

I wasn't talking about you personally.

Khannie

I just meant there's nothing there denoting any kind of rank because (in theory) no rank exists. You can wear decorative / lucky stuff around your upper arm if you want to. And anklets. A lot of the lads seem to like them. Prefer a bare shin when I'm fighting myself. We'd wear a mongkon while doing the wai kru (pre-fight dance). In our gym the wai kru varies depending on the skill level you're fighting at (little / none at amateur, basic at C class pro, more complex at B class pro, full whack at A class pro).

Doug Cartel

I trained in a place before where they used coloured armbands to denote rank. Thing is, the ranks didn't count for much and a lot of people didn't bother with them. Technically you needed to reach a certain level rank before you could coach in the organisation, but I can't imagine somebody with a decent fight record would be turned down. I asked one of the instructors about it and he just kind of shrugged his shoulders and said that some people want gradings and stuff like that from a martial art.

flynny51

Do ye know many people who don't grade? Either because they don't believe belts mean anything or have no interest in grading... but are up to BB level? How would this be looked upon and what would they do for competitions?

Doug Cartel

I've been doing judo for about three years now, and I've never graded. There's been a few factors involved, a big one is that I don't train as regularly as I should; another is just bad timing, I've missed gradings due to being away on work; and another is that I just haven't felt much incentive to grade. Everyone does the same stuff in class, regardless of rank, and in competitions you can go by weight.

The only time I've regretted not grading was when Kosei Inoue was training with my old club and only blue-belts or higher were allowed on the mat. (Even if I did do grading I wouldn't be that high ranked anyway, but I suppose I'd be a step closer.)

SBG Ireland

oh i got my first dan this year, forgot about it. you get it auto after 3years been a black....so now im much better than any mere bjj blackbelt

arybvtcw0eolkf

flynny51 wrote: »

Do ye know many people who don't grade? Either because they don't believe belts mean anything or have no interest in grading... but are up to BB level? How would this be looked upon and what would they do for competitions?

Well some people can't grade for the reason's Doug mentioned above.

But there are people who'll hang around in the middle kyu's competing as very experienced & competitive blue belts - IMO its disrepectful to sport and the people putting in the effort to make competition's to fight you.

The above being the case you'll be found out sooner or later, and if your club is on the ball it'll be brought to your attention too.

Doug Cartel

I should just clarify, I'm not against grading, and I do intend to get the ball rolling on that soon. I'm much more interested in competition though and that would be a bigger motivator for me. Of course higher belts get you into higher divisions...

EnjoyChoke

I'm interested in performance rather than grades.

BobbyOLeary

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

I'm interested in performance rather than grades.

Good for you. Grades are a rough indication of performance.

EnjoyChoke

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Good for you. Grades are a rough indication of performance.

sometimes they are, sometimes they're not.

BobbyOLeary

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

sometimes they are, sometimes they're not.

You study BJJ, so they are.

EnjoyChoke

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

You study BJJ, so they are.

Haven't "studied" anything since college

da-bres

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Haven't "studied" anything since college

Except the knee ride of doom....:cool:

its hurting my stomach and chest just thinking of it....

Damn you King!:mad:

Sid_Justice

which king is enjoychoke?

da-bres

the purple belt, scorpion king!

Barry.Oglesby

I think coloured sweatbands are an awesome way to denote rank in non-gi wearing sports.

colinlaird000

You could use wrist bands as a stripe system.

jebidiah

Kendo

Uses the Kyu/Dan grading system.

9th- 1st kyu then 1st - 8th dan
there are no belts or visable indicators of grade of any kind. except maybe technique!
In Japan the grading system starts at around 11 years of age. most Japanese kendoka are 1st dan at 14. you must be over the age of 47 to grade for (8) Hachi Dan, which is the highest grade available throught examination.

in early kendo gradings the kendoka demonstrate basic cutting and foot work exersises. as well as Kata. Usually after 4th Kyu, they would be in Bogu (armor)

from then on the grading consists of Kirikaeshi, (both attacking and recieving) a fast exercise that shows pretty much everything about a kendokas basic technique.
followed by 2 rounds of jigeiko (free fighting) you must score 2 Ippons in your grading to pass, but there is no winner or loser and the points are not announced. what is expected from your kendo progresses from physical 1-3rd dan, to physical/mental 4th-5th to mastery of technique and controll of the opponent through ki. 6th-8th

if you pass the keiko section, you must next pass the kata! there are 10 kata, 7 with the long sword, and 3 with the short. you perform the kata in pairs. from 3rd dan on all 10 kata must be demonstrated

you have to be 14 (im pretty sure) to take 1st dan, after that its
1 year -2nd dan
2 years 3 dan
3 years 4 dan
4 years 5 dan
5 years 6 dan
6 years 7 dan
7 years, and age dependant 8 dan. the 8th dan exam is the hardest exam in japan, with a less than 1% pass rate.

Plastikman_eire

jebidiah wrote: »

to physical/mental 4th-5th to mastery of technique and controll of the opponent through ki.
.

So, stage 4-5 is becoming a fraud?

(Although hopefully i misunderstand what you mean by Ki)

jebidiah

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

So, stage 4-5 is becoming a fraud?

(Although hopefully i misunderstand what you mean by Ki)

third dan is the final "physical" exam. Where they look for correct technique posture and the ability to break your opponents kamae with physical technique and pressure. From 4th dan kendoka are expected to show the use of mental presure (of course the physical part must still be correct if not better) Using this presure/tension along with seme to create an opening in the opponent. The step from 3rd to 4th dan is said to one of the most dificult things to achieve in kendo.

Fraud. Ha. Try doing keiko with any Japanese sensei in any martial art an you will feel the ki! It's not a haduken though!

Plastikman_eire

jebidiah wrote: »

third dan is the final "physical" exam. Where they look for correct technique posture and the ability to break your opponents kamae with physical technique and pressure. From 4th dan kendoka are expected to show the use of mental presure (of course the physical part must still be correct if not better) Using this presure/tension along with seme to create an opening in the opponent. The step from 3rd to 4th dan is said to one of the most dificult things to achieve in kendo.

Fraud. Ha. Try doing keiko with any Japanese sensei in any martial art an you will feel the ki! It's not a haduken though!

So is Ki some invisable force that a 5th Dan or over can use in place of a physical attack?

jebidiah

im not going to bother....

Plastikman_eire

jebidiah wrote: »

im not going to bother....

Im genuinely interested, however your willingness to explain makes the whole thing feel a little unbelievable.

Is Ki a term used to describe a level of technical ability that long term practitioners attain, which makes them particularly effective?

Or is it some sort of invisible force which can be exerted against an opponent?

Im hoping it's the former and I have misunderstood.

crosstrainer1

Bridger Billions Keyboard wrote: »

Simple question really, and I'll give Judo as an example.

The Judoka grades from white through to green belt in the club by displaying a knowledge of the syllabus relevant to the grade. This is NOT done in competition or at national level.

Time taken to get to green in the clubs I've trained is (give or take) two years, after which the judoka's grading is largely taken out of the clubs hands, ie you can not grade in the club from green through to black.

Its largely down to the Judoka to prepare for, and attend national gradings.

For blue & brown your given four fights, of which you MUST win two by ippon or wazari (big scores) or by submission (chokes/strangles, joint locks or hold down).

Only after winning your fights do you go on to get tested on your knowledge of the syllabus again, and again relevant to the grade - plus Kata.

For your black you must win 100 points in 12 months in either national dan gradings or competition (or both). One win by ippon is 10 points, and by Wazari is 7 points.. Before again being tested on the whole syllabus plus Kata.

So from white to green your tested at club level, no fights.

For Blue, Brown & Black you must fight & win your belts - ie, both guys on the mat are fighting for the belt, loser comes back another day.

How is your system graded?.

gradings is based on whoever is the head of its association. some are very hard some are easy. also in some associations you have to fight and others you dont the best grading system is grading the person as an indevidual alot of people develop in different ways this is the Jeet Kune do way of grading

jebidiah

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Or is it some sort of invisible force which can be exerted against an opponent?

seriously? its this part of your questioning that makes me think your trying to take the piss. stop watching youtube videos of that old chap getting his head kicked in! that aint kendo for a start!

im only nidan in kendo, so my understanding is of course from the eyes of the beginner. Ki being a spiritual (and Asian) term, im am also completley unqualified to define it. but ill try to explain it in relation to kendo

Ki Ken Tai Ichi is the basis of any strike in kendo.
Ki = spirit
Ken = sword
Tai = body

ichi means one, so for a strike to be ippon, you must have all 3 as one. a deteminded spirit, sword and body. at the same time as you strike, you must kiai the target you are cutting while stamping with Fumikomi.

if we take Ki meaning spirit in this case. think of it as your state of mind. if you are determined to strike, or are confident, or feeling good, then you have strong ki. your spirits are high and you would be attacking with more determination that someone with low spirit.

kendo is about small openings, and split second reactions. i said before from yondan onward you are expected not just to use your body and sword to create an opening and strike. but to use your Ki or spirit. yondan kendoka try to use their determined spirit to create doubt in, and then dominate their opponent.

im not going to say that it is not an invisible force being used against your opponent, because i have trained twice with hachi dan sensei. (these guys have been training for nearly 50 years, if not more, most are over 50 the two i have trained with are over 60. and there are no non japanese hachidan.)

the sheer presence of these guys is unbelievable. and i definatly felt something. that thing, did not make me fall on the ground, or hurt, but it such created a doubt in my mind, and made me hesitate, which he then used to absolutely whoop me.

like i said i am nidan, and have not gotten to that stage yet. so i dont fully understand it.
i hope this makes sense, other wise you will just have to try kendo to experience it!

It is not the force, and it is not the sh!t from street fighter, or the Kiai guy from you tube


i also apologise for going Off topic so much!

Sid_Justice

so you're saying Ki is charisma ?

jebidiah

Sid_Justice wrote: »

so you're saying Ki is charisma ?

I already said I am not qualified to define such a term as ki. It has many meanings in eastern culture and many people spend years trying to understand it. I tried to explain my understanding of it in relation to Kendo.

If you want more information, i suggest you look here

I wont be discussing it further. sorry for OT again.

Sid_Justice

jebidiah wrote: »

I already said I am not qualified to define such a term as ki. It has many meanings in eastern culture and many people spend years trying to understand it. I tried to explain my understanding of it in relation to Kendo.

If you want more information, i suggest you look here

I wont be discussing it further. sorry for OT again.

You're trying to mystify it, I'm sorry that won't wash here. You allude to "heightened masters" reaching some kind of spiritual nirvana in which they can yield the power of inner ki like Ryu with hadoken.

It is not the force, and it is not the sh!t from street fighter, or the Kiai guy from you tube

Although you're aware of this.

Like why does nobody say Tiger Woods is using Ki when he wins golf tournaments? Or Mike Tyson using his Ki to beat opponents to get in the ring prior to fights. My biggest criticism of Kendo has been it's indulgence of Japanese spiritual beliefs. A group of Irish guys in kendo gear chanting little japanese prayers is really quite tragic.

flynny51

One scientific hypothesis put forward (based on a study of acupuncture) - connective tissue mechanotransduction i.e a domino effect caused by the specific twisting and knotting of the fabric of the body.

Sid_Justice

flynny51 wrote: »

One scientific hypothesis put forward (based on a study of acupuncture) - connective tissue mechanotransduction i.e a domino effect caused by the specific twisting and knotting of the fabric of the body.

lol

flynny51

I just ripped it from wiki, here's where it's referenced to.

jebidiah

Sid_Justice wrote: »

You're trying to mystify it, I'm sorry that won't wash here. You allude to "heightened masters" reaching some kind of spiritual nirvana in which they can yield the power of inner ki like Ryu with hadoken.



Although you're aware of this.

Like why does nobody say Tiger Woods is using Ki when he wins golf tournaments? Or Mike Tyson using his Ki to beat opponents to get in the ring prior to fights. My biggest criticism of Kendo has been it's indulgence of Japanese spiritual beliefs. A group of Irish guys in kendo gear chanting little japanese prayers is really quite tragic.

sorry, im not trying to mystify anything, its something i dont understand fully because i dont study it, and because i was brought up in western culture. i dont know alot about it, to say anything else, would be simple bullsh1tting.

because tiger woods is a golfer, and ki has nothing to do with golf does it?

people talk about his mental game alot though, as well as boxing, and other martial arts. the same when boxers eye each other up after the weigh in, they dont touch each other, but both surely feel the presure just from looking at the guy.

in easter culture, maybe they would call that ki?

My biggest criticism of Kendo has been it's indulgence of Japanese spiritual beliefs.
its Japanese.

"A group of Irish guys in kendo gear chanting little japanese prayers is really quite tragic."

there are no prayers in kendo mate. just simple reigi, or etiquette. basic manners and respect. that goes for people who practice kendo, and all other martial arts.

The main Sensei that has brought Irish Kendo to where it is today is 7th dan kyoshi. born and bred in japan.

I find your belittling of something you dont understand, quite tragic.