FG accepting donations off NAMA developers

average_runner

So the developers cant afford to pay back the money they owed, but FG are willing to take donations of these showers!! FG really care about the people of Ireland alright.


Just proves FG and FF are no different, take money off anyone and later do the favours to look after the developers!

Vote FG and things will change, your having a laugh

Sleepy

I'm astonished the developers have anything to donate...

or were the wives/kids making the donations in their fathers' names?

Nijmegen

The sad reality in Ireland is that the people at the top, bankers, politicians, all the rest, are rolling around in the same muck as one another all the time.

What's the difference between FG and FF in power?

No, it's not a joke.

Seriously.

And the rest are the same.

Cheapo

I am really disappointed to hear this. I was listen to Matt cooper on this last night, and its very true what he said.....FG have just played right into Labours hand....i was going to vote FG in the next election but my mind has now drastically changed and it will be Labour.....they could not do anything worse than what has already been done!!

dvpower

average_runner wrote: »

So the developers cant afford to pay back the money they owed, but FG are willing to take donations of these showers!! FG really care about the people of Ireland alright.

Just because a loan went to NAMA doesn't imply that the developer can't pay it back.

average_runner wrote: »

Just proves FG and FF are no different, take money off anyone and later do the favours to look after the developers!

That's a fairly low burden of proof there.

average_runner

Not really a low burden of proof, as FG have always condemn FF tents at the Galway races, and here we have the same with FG now!

Liam Byrne

average_runner wrote: »

Not really a low burden of proof, as FG have always condemn FF tents at the Galway races, and here we have the same with FG now!

I would suspect that that's because the FF policies and decisions (and corruption) so often favour the developers who frequented same.

Basically, donations aren't bad by themselves, as long as those giving them don't either expect or receive something in return.

That said, I'd be pretty sure that FG aren't whiter-than-white.....however FF take the biscuit when it comes to "dig outs" and subsequent dodgy decisions.

jmayo

This does raise a few interesting points.

Firstly I think FG should have thought about accepting donations from prominent NAMA bound developers.
Has this individual ever donated to FG before ?
If he had then I would say it was somewhat normal.

Had this individual contributed to ff previously, because it will be a bit of a worry for them if their staunch moneymen are either broke of running off to the opposition ?

Corporate donations are something we could do without, but I can see Kenny's point of starting them up again after Noonan since he was competing with the massive warchests bertie was amassing what with his Galway tent visitors and the like.

Liam Byrne

jmayo wrote: »

I can see Kenny's point of starting them up again after Noonan since he was competing with the massive warchests bertie was amassing what with his Galway tent visitors and the like.

Sorry, but I can't.

That war chest is forever associated with corruption.

The best thing FG could do is clean up politics and be above all this crap (and, by the way, not reverse the steps they previously made to clean up politics re expenses, pensions and bonuses) and then the size of FF's war chest will be irrelevant, as the only votes they'll get will be the 20% staunch supporters.

But FG really, really need to distance themselves from any sniff of dodgy goings-on and cronyism.

I'm swinging between them and Labour at the moment, and if FG don't reinstate their previous measures and avoid scenarios like this, it's going to have to be Labour. And I doubt I'm unique.

It's in FG's hands.

Welease

It's not just the "donation", it's the manner in which they were donated..

The country is going broke, people making cuts left and right, over 400K unemployed, and these developers can still afford to attend and play golf with FG at the K Club while we continue to pick up the tab...

And Enda didn't think the country might have a problem with that?

jmayo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry, but I can't.

That war chest is forever associated with corruption.

The best thing FG could do is clean up politics and be above all this crap (and, by the way, not reverse the steps they previously made to clean up politics re expenses, pensions and bonuses) and then the size of FF's war chest will be irrelevant, as the only votes they'll get will be the 20% staunch supporters.

Ah come on now.
If you are faced with a competitor that can spend millions and you can't you are already at a huge disadvanatge so it was understandable that they would have reinstated corporate donations.
Also note that most of the Irish media were bertie/ff friendly in the days 2002-2007, so it was necessary to spend a lot to compete.

It didn't matter to the joe soaps (a big chunk of the voters) where bertie got his money or his warchest, they just lapped up the publicity.
Can you deny that ?

Anyway that would be my explanation for reason they had restored corporate donations.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But FG really, really need to distance themselves from any sniff of dodgy goings-on and cronyism.

I'm swinging between them and Labour at the moment, and if FG don't reinstate their previous measures and avoid scenarios like this, it's going to have to be Labour. And I doubt I'm unique.

It's in FG's hands.

True they do need to distance themselves from these guys, but are you seriously saying they should accept no corporate donations ?
In a normal functioning economy I would agree that parties should seek their funding from the state, but with the way things are I don't want taxpayers money going towards political parties no matter who they are.

Welease wrote: »

It's not just the "donation", it's the manner in which they were donated..

The country is going broke, people making cuts left and right, over 400K unemployed, and these developers can still afford to attend and play golf with FG at the K Club while we continue to pick up the tab...

And Enda didn't think the country might have a problem with that?

If you think it is just the K club then you are deluded.
They go playing golf in Spain and footsie in Moroco.

Never know maybe Enda thought he would back some of his tax contribution to NAMA from them :rolleyes:

mikemac

I suppose this could open the debate that if we ban corporate donations should parties get complete funding from the state.
I believe they do get some funding for election expenses, I'm not sure of the exact details.

But if you gave people the option of funding parties through taxes or let them turn to corporate donations then we would have everyone unhappy at both options.

It'd be an interesting new thread anyway.

Just because the developer is associated with NAMA does not mean his loans will not be repaid in full. We don't have his details here. But it is a PR disaster anyway.

Nody

feelingstressed wrote: »

I suppose this could open the debate that if we ban corporate donations should parties get complete funding from the state.

Then the corporate simply run a seperate campaign for the party; pay for propaganda mailed out, cold calling (or dirty calling by pretending to be one party and piss people off and after 4h tell you're calling on behalf of party X instead when no one still listens) etc. as it is done in many other countries or if not as corporate as "private" campaigns funded by the CEO who got a one of bonus to pay for it...

But if you gave people the option of funding parties through taxes or let them turn to corporate donations then we would have everyone unhappy at both options.

There would still be corp. donations; simply done around the legal requirements instead. For example set a limit of personal donations to 500 EUR (no corp. dontations allowed); and lo and behold everyone in a company decides to donate 500 EUR to one guy while getting a 1000 EUR one off bonus...

average_runner

In fairness details of the donations was very clear, it was the person with the biggest amount in NAMA. (mods feel free to edit this)


People only give something to get something back, all parties in ireland are no good, all corrupt but my vote will stay with ff now.

Cant vote for labour as their policies just dont make sense

jmayo

goat2 wrote: »

this is very disappointing
i was going to vote fg in next general
i had voted ff last time, but because of this brown envelope thing i was switching to fg
i would rather die than vote the greens
but now labour gets mine next time

Ehh where did the jump to brown envelops come from ?
They had a public fund raising effort and one of the people involved is developer, who like all the rest is headed for NAMA.
The optics and perception were poor, but jumping to claim it is akin to some ray burke, padraig flynn type thing is stretching it.
There is big difference between this and accepting £50,000 in early 1990s.

BTW it was very public knowledge, about all the dodgy political donations and private donations (ehh digouts) ff members had received, at the time of the last election so please tell us why you voted for them then, but now have huge problem with FG receiving single public donation from NAMA bound developer ?


Sadly political parties are going to get money from individuals and organisations unless we ban donations and force the taxpayers to fund them.
Personally I would not want my taxes to go towards some gobsh***s (any party) putting up election posters with their ugly mugs on them.

BTW where do Labour get their money ?

With the amount of people clamouring to vote for Labour I expect them to get 140 seats in next GE.
oh and the other 26 will go to ff who people think are the best of a bad lot. :rolleyes:

average_runner wrote: »

In fairness details of the donations was very clear, it was the person with the biggest amount in NAMA. (mods feel free to edit this)

People only give something to get something back, all parties in ireland are no good, all corrupt but my vote will stay with ff now.

Cant vote for labour as their policies just dont make sense

Yeah just ignore the mess they made of the economy, the fact we are running high current deficit, have hocked ourselves and the next generation to bailout insolvent illiquid banks and vote them back in. :rolleyes:

MrDarcy

They can't afford to pay back loans to the banks, they claim that they are insolvent but they can afford to donate money to a political party. You'd have to ask what the f*ck is going on there.

Liam Byrne

jmayo wrote: »

Ah come on now.
If you are faced with a competitor that can spend millions and you can't you are already at a huge disadvanatge so it was understandable that they would have reinstated corporate donations.
Also note that most of the Irish media were bertie/ff friendly in the days 2002-2007, so it was necessary to spend a lot to compete.

Completely incorrect.

When you are faced with a corrupt and lying competitor, you simply differentiate yourself from that competitor by exposing the corruption and ensuring that you have nothing to hide. You also come up with decent, ethical policies and educate the electorate that that combination is far, far better.

Yes, there's no denying that there's some cost involved in promoting the above, but there's no reason to view the amount available to spend as the be-all and end-all; in fact, that's a stunningly FF-style approach - to throw money at a problem in order to "solve" it, without actually coming up with a decent solution.

Liam Byrne

MrDarcy wrote: »

They can't afford to pay back loans to the banks, they claim that they are insolvent but they can afford to donate money to a political party. You'd have to ask what the f*ck is going on there.

As I asked earlier, do we know if the individual has "performing" loans ?

NAMA took on two types of loans. Those worth something and those not.

If he can't pay back his loans and is splashing out on €3,000 golf outings, then this is seriously objectionable.

If his loan is one of the ones that NAMA took in order to have some income, then the whole story is far, far less objectionable, and is just FF slinging mud.

Mr. Presentable

Oooh, FG in not-whiter-than-white shock.

Why does anyone think that politicians differ from party to party?

Nody

nipplenuts wrote: »

Why does anyone think that politicians differ from party to party?

But but but MY politican said he was different!!1

average_runner

HI Liam;

It was mentioned in the sunday papers that the individual was in serious debt to NAMA and not paying anything back.


Look up sunday papers on the web

aonoco

This just raises questions and possibly answers them in regards to Kenny's political judgment and understanding the people he claims he will represent after the next election.

This was an excellent opportunity for FG and Kenny to turn this into a positive PR exercise and make a statement that accepting a donation was inappropriate and take the full donation and even give it to charity or handed it to NAMA against the loans that are owed by the developer.

Instead silence.

"Fine Gael, for its part, declined to comment specifically on the appropriateness of O'Flynn Construction's sponsorship of the K Club event, or Michael O'Flynn's participation in it" *

The fact that earlier this year Enda Kenny stated "It's about time that the Taoiseach, in his capacity as leader of the Government, ensures that it stops dancing to the tune of developers and big bankers." *

I have no political allegiance towards any party but just a shame that the Irish people have such a lack of diversity when it comes to choice of representation.

When you earn considerably more than the average industrial wage think about €32,000.00 (2009) how can you be in touch with the people you represent when you earn € 122,000.00***



*http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fg-taps-nama-10-developer-for-money-2263297.html
**http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015830.shtml
***http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1012697.shtml

Liam Byrne

average_runner wrote: »

HI Liam;

It was mentioned in the sunday papers that the individual was in serious debt to NAMA and not paying anything back.


Look up sunday papers on the web

Cheers. Haven't bought a Sunday paper in years, as 99.9% of them are pure tripe.

Explains why I missed this.

Welease

jmayo wrote: »

If you think it is just the K club then you are deluded.
They go playing golf in Spain and footsie in Moroco.

Never know maybe Enda thought he would back some of his tax contribution to NAMA from them :rolleyes:

FG can do nothing about Developers playing golf in Spain and Morocco..
I also don't see a problem with political donations from companies/individuals once they are documented and transparent (there should be some limit on amount).

However, if FG can't see the problem with a NAMA developer who cannot/will not pay his bills, but can still afford to sponsor holes at their event, and play at the K Club, and that they are willing to be photographed with said developer to enhance their "war chest".. Then they really are living on a different planet (given Enda's numerous comments about the Galway tent).

Enda's response that it's not illegal misses the point by a country mile..

BrownianMotion

average_runner wrote: »

In fairness details of the donations was very clear, it was the person with the biggest amount in NAMA. (mods feel free to edit this)


People only give something to get something back, all parties in ireland are no good, all corrupt but my vote will stay with ff now.

Cant vote for labour as their policies just dont make sense

It's disappointing to see this attitude. I'd agree that PR wise this was a disaster for FG, and does not inspire confidence. However this is nothing close to what FF have done over the last decade.

People still seem too willing to forgive FF their sins and bend over once more.

If Bertie himself called around to your house proclaiming to be the wallet inspector I have no doubt what the outcome would be.

Welease

BrownianMotion wrote: »

It's disappointing to see this attitude. I'd agree that PR wise this was a disaster for FG, and does not inspire confidence. However this is nothing close to what FF have done over the last decade.

People still seem too willing to forgive FF their sins and bend over once more.

If Bertie himself called around to your house proclaiming to be the wallet inspector I have no doubt what the outcome would be.

I don't think it's necessarily that people are willing to forget FF's sins.. but i do appreciate your comment is directed at one poster who says they will vote FF.
(I never voted FF and dont intend to start now)

They are just pointing out the hypocracy of FG with their Galway tent comments. Politics (esp in Ireland) is populist.. and for Enda and FG not to understand the PR disaster in letting this happen is somewhat laughable, and somewhat concerning that another major political party in Ireland seems to be beholden to developers . Nothing more nothing less..

BrownianMotion

Welease wrote: »

I don't think it's necessarily that people are willing to forget FF's sins.. but i do appreciate your comment is directed at one poster who says they will vote FF.
(I never voted FF and dont intend to start now)

They are just pointing out the hypocracy of FG with their Galway tent comments. Politics (esp in Ireland) is populist.. and for Enda and FG not to understand the PR disaster in letting this happen is somewhat laughable, and somewhat concerning that another major political party in Ireland seems to be beholden to developers . Nothing more nothing less..

Yes but in this case we have the proven guilty, and the suspected.

Not a perfect choice by any means but there is always the chance that FG will not shape policy in the way FF has done.
However naive that thought may be!!

thebman

The property developer donations are oen problem.

The quango's are another. Worth getting rid of FF so FG can clear out these quango's which along could save us billions with relatively little lost in return compared to major cuts to health and infrastructure projects.

Liam Byrne

average_runner wrote: »

People only give something to get something back

That should be their tough. If a guy gives a girl flowers and chocolates, it doesn't mean that she HAS TO sleep with him.

average_runner wrote: »

all parties in ireland are no good, all corrupt but my vote will stay with ff now.

Nice declaration; I somehow doubt it was ever going to vary from FF, tbh.

Head The Wall

I'm not going to condone what FG got up to this week, but surely the monies that are owed to NAMA are from limited companies. The money given to FG could have been from the developers own funds, we don't know this and also if the developer gave personal guarantees over the loans then in fairness he shouldn't be giving donations as everything he owns should be taken to cover the personal guarantees.