Following on from the "Keeping It Underground" thread...

Fandango

If you became minister for arts and leisure (i think is the title!!) tomorrow, what ideas would you bring forward to improve the music industry in Ireland? I'll be honest, i would put forward my ideas at the start of this thread but i honestly dont know. I think subsidised rehearsal rooms (which was mentioned before) would be a great step forward but what else do you think would improve the situation?

miju

Theres not much more than can be done. There are financial grants available to "mainstream" bands to assist them in undertaking more activities such as touring, recording etc under the BES scheme.

The council (which is local government) help fund many local small and large festivals around the country giving bands plenty of exposure and PR opportunities and they even have a quango setup First Music Contact (formerly Federation of Music Collectives) which pushes new Irish bands abroad at big conferences like MIDEM and SXSW as well as funding such ventures like the HWCH gigs.

I mean in all genuine honesty what more can a minister do to help the music industry in this country? There is so much help out there it's not even funny how much of it goes untapped.

So to end my mini rant and to answer your point as Minister I'd get a cattle prod to the bands in this country to get them truely off their asses and re-classify their definition of "working hard" and I would educate them as much as possible in self management.

MilanPan!c

miju wrote: »

Theres not much more than can be done. There are financial grants available to "mainstream" bands to assist them in undertaking more activities such as touring, recording etc under the BES scheme.

The council (which is local government) help fund many local small and large festivals around the country giving bands plenty of exposure and PR opportunities and they even have a quango setup First Music Contact (formerly Federation of Music Collectives) which pushes new Irish bands abroad at big conferences like MIDEM and SXSW as well as funding such ventures like the HWCH gigs.

I mean in all genuine honesty what more can a minister do to help the music industry in this country? There is so much help out there it's not even funny how much of it goes untapped.

So to end my mini rant and to answer your point as Minister I'd get a cattle prod to the bands in this country to get them truely off their asses and re-classify their definition of "working hard" and I would educate them as much as possible in self management.

Well then, it sounds like what a minister should be doing is education, re: the opportunities... I haven't personally come across a lot of info, re: government opportunities... and I have several in-laws in the gov... none of them seem to know about anything related to bands...

I've seen the FMC stuff, but that only helps a few bands, right?

Is there something aimed at more junior bands that could help more people who were just starting out?

If you know what I mean?

miju

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I haven't personally come across a lot of info, re: government opportunities... and I have several in-laws in the gov... none of them seem to know about anything related to bands...

Depends on what department they are in I suppose. Grant information tends to be kept fairly low key and circulated more amongst industry people and IMRO etc. Reasons for this AFAIK is because attitude seems to be an indie band will start up apply for grant piss it all away / fail miserably from spending money on wrong aspects of their business.

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I've seen the FMC stuff, but that only helps a few bands, right?

Is there something aimed at more junior bands that could help more people who were just starting out?

Yeah they are a bit of a "clique" (and I hate to use that word) but in saying that they are open to bands and will push new ones should they see fit.

The FMCs (when they were the Federation of Music Collectives) main role was helping to fund co-op's and educate it's members (so basically junior bands / people starting out). However, IMHO and a few others it was directionless and very ineffective. Then HWCH year 2 came around and they sponsored that to give themselves some purpose.

After that they switched their name to First Music Contact and pretty much put all resources into HWCH and events surrounding it trying to set it up as an Irish SxSW etc. So in essence IMO they've abandoned the reason they were established in the main and have switched to more high profile / less essential work. Thats not to say Ms. Dorgan doesnt do a great job mind you.

Yeah so in short theres nothing to educate bands anymore.

Waking-Dreams

miju wrote: »

So to end my mini rant and to answer your point as Minister I'd get a cattle prod to the bands in this country to get them truely off their asses and re-classify their definition of "working hard" and I would educate them as much as possible in self management.

Too right, it's like my 'net buddy says it:

Some people just want something for nothing.

They want a good job, but they don't want to invest in themselves to get it (i.e., by going to school, buying some decent clothing, brushing up on their "people skills", etc.)

They want "quality" products, but they aren't willing to spend serious money for them.

They want to be rockstars, but they don't want to practice their instruments.

They want to score with hot chicks, but they don't want to lose weight or risk rejection.

They want more money, but they don't want to get a better job, cut their expenses or make an investment.

...as Dire Straits put it, they want "money for nothing and chicks for free"

Regarding something to educate bands; in all fairness, the Internet is a free resource and a great educational tool (if you look in the right places). E-books, documentaries, mentors (semi-famous musicians who have their own forums and communicate with fans); these can all be found online. And a trek through amazon has tons of music related books with lots of user-generated feedback. Bands should realise as well as spending money on their equipment/rehearsal, they might have to invest in an education too.
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
Before the Internet the only way bands could find out about the industry was through buying some book on “how to make it” or whatever bands' press they would read about in magazines, both of which were put out there to sell or promote something and ensure sales. Now, bands can find lots of free information from people who are happy to share.[/FONT]

It'd be great if the standard of rehearsal rooms could be improved upon, but I don't see any money being given to go towards this.

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Too right, it's like my 'net buddy says it:



Regarding something to educate bands; in all fairness, the Internet is a free resource and a great educational tool (if you look in the right places). E-books, documentaries, mentors (semi-famous musicians who have their own forums and communicate with fans); these can all be found online. And a trek through amazon has tons of music related books with lots of user-generated feedback. Bands should realise as well as spending money on their equipment/rehearsal, they might have to invest in an education too.
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
Before the Internet the only way bands could find out about the industry was through buying some book on “how to make it” or whatever bands' press they would read about in magazines, both of which were put out there to sell or promote something and ensure sales. Now, bands can find lots of free information from people who are happy to share.[/FONT]

It'd be great if the standard of rehearsal rooms could be improved upon, but I don't see any money being given to go towards this.

All I mean by education is a bit of info about what is available to bands abd the process to apply for it, etc.

The Internet is great, but c'mon a LOT of the info online is incomplete or contradictory.

Standardise that and advertise its availability.

Cheap and easily and practical and useful.

Waking-Dreams

There's plenty of books that get published which are also full of errors and contradictions, and these are supposedly meant to be looked over by editors and fact-checkers. A book that gets published is meant to have some kind of seal of approval because it was given the green light by a publishing house, but it says nothing about its overall validity.


Look, there's going to be bad advice out there online but if you search in enough places, some of the same advice keeps recurring, and a pattern emerges. There can't be an objectively standardised body of data because everyone has their own advice and experience to voice – you yourself should know this by now.


It's up to the bands to sort the wheat from the chaff, like they do with good song ideas and bad ones. Let them make some decisions, learn from them and carry on. The only way to never fail, is by learning from all mistakes.

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

There's plenty of books that get published which are also full of errors and contradictions, and these are supposedly meant to be looked over by editors and fact-checkers. A book that gets published is meant to have some kind of seal of approval because it was given the green light by a publishing house, but it says nothing about its overall validity.


Look, there's going to be bad advice out there online but if you search in enough places, some of the same advice keeps recurring, and a pattern emerges. There can't be an objectively standardised body of data because everyone has their own advice and experience to voice – you yourself should know this by now.


It's up to the bands to sort the wheat from the chaff, like they do with good song ideas and bad ones. Let them make some decisions, learn from them and carry on. The only way to never fail, is by learning from all mistakes.

Hmmm...

Not sure this is... nice?

Why argue against a slight change in approach which would benefit bands?

It's not like we should be protecting a flawed process, just to teach bands a ... what... valuable lesson?

Waking-Dreams

I'm not arguing over changing, just stating that trying to collect the "right" kind of data is impossible because some of it will be subjective. Bands all have their own methods which would contradict one another. If you asked 10 bands to write up such a brief, there would be similarities but there would also be differences like you say there is online.

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Standardise that and advertise its availability.

Would love to hear your ideas about how to standardise said band advice. How do you pick and choose what to include/exclude? I think Papa Smut's thread about putting useful links is the right idea. Make it a pool of info for musicians to then cherry pick their ideas from, and go from there.



Like I said, there's good and bad info out there online just like there's good and bad books. But what some people will consider good advice, will be deemed bad by others, so it's a complex process trying to standardise a body of good info for bands.

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I'm not arguing over changing, just stating that trying to collect the "right" kind of data is impossible because some of it will be subjective. Bands all have their own methods which would contradict one another. If you asked 10 bands to write up such a brief, there would be similarities but there would also be differences like you say there is online.



Would love to hear your ideas about how to standardise said band advice. How do you pick and choose what to include/exclude? I think Papa Smut's thread about putting useful links is the right idea. Make it a pool of info for musicians to then cherry pick their ideas from, and go from there.



Like I said, there's good and bad info out there online just like there's good and bad books. But what some people will consider good advice, will be deemed bad by others, so it's a complex process trying to standardise a body of good info for bands.

I'm not talking about generic advise, but info about Irish government opportunities.

That kind of info should be, as a matter of policy, promoted to those who can benefit from it.

Waking-Dreams

Indeed it should but the way things work in this country... you know... :rolleyes:

Waking-Dreams

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Indeed it should but the way things work in this country... you know... :rolleyes:

Fandango wrote: »

If you became minister for arts and leisure (i think is the title!!) tomorrow, what ideas would you bring forward to improve the music industry in Ireland? I'll be honest, i would put forward my ideas at the start of this thread but i honestly dont know. I think subsidised rehearsal rooms (which was mentioned before) would be a great step forward but what else do you think would improve the situation?

WD, the whole thread begins with

Fandango wrote:

"If"

Not reality

So...


here goes...

Artist living spaces
Subsidised rehearsal rooms
Subsidised recording studios
A bigger push on festivals - But ONLY independent run festivals. EP, Oxygen make enough money and generally* get the same "flavour of the month" bands in.
Tax breaks for national (independent) record labels
Tax breaks for bricks and mortar shops that sell a certain percentage of irish artists (as it's an if, the likes of U2, Westlife etc, would not apply to this)
Start a college of excellence. An absolute Irish home for music. I actually think this should be a must. The museum that could be attached to it would be awesome.
And, as this is an "If" thread, I would somehow convince people that Irish Contemporary Music can be as good as stuff we hear from abroad or from 50 years ago.

Oh... And I'd also LOVE to somehow get rid of Hot Press. But I think time is on my side for that one



Obviously, these are only bullet points... but I have been drinking and will get into more detail tomorrow.




*Start the queue for bashing me here

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>

miju

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I'm not talking about generic advise, but info about Irish government opportunities.

That kind of info should be, as a matter of policy, promoted to those who can benefit from it.

In fairness to the government though this type of policy isnt just limited to bands etc.

I work with a national voluntary org and I can tell you its like pulling teeth at times about opportunites or grants etc

MilanPan!c

miju wrote: »

In fairness to the government though this type of policy isnt just limited to bands etc.

I work with a national voluntary org and I can tell you its like pulling teeth at times about opportunites or grants etc

I'm not sure 'fair' was the right word for describing a comprehensive lack of promotion of these sorts of opportunity.

Maybe, instead, "the government fails all communities equally in this regard"?

miju

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Maybe, instead, "the government fails all communities equally in this regard"?

LOL thats a much better and accurate term. I'm still half asleep

MilanPan!c

miju wrote: »

LOL thats a much better and accurate term. I'm still half asleep

Haha... I'm only on half a cup of coffee... I had to re-type that about three times before it made any sense.

balducci

Papa Smut wrote: »

WD, the whole thread begins with

Not reality

So...


here goes...

Artist living spaces
Subsidised rehearsal rooms
Subsidised recording studios
A bigger push on festivals - But ONLY independent run festivals. EP, Oxygen make enough money and generally* get the same "flavour of the month" bands in.
Tax breaks for national (independent) record labels
Tax breaks for bricks and mortar shops that sell a certain percentage of irish artists (as it's an if, the likes of U2, Westlife etc, would not apply to this)
Start a college of excellence. An absolute Irish home for music. I actually think this should be a must. The museum that could be attached to it would be awesome.
And, as this is an "If" thread, I would somehow convince people that Irish Contemporary Music can be as good as stuff we hear from abroad or from 50 years ago.

Oh... And I'd also LOVE to somehow get rid of Hot Press. But I think time is on my side for that one



Obviously, these are only bullet points... but I have been drinking and will get into more detail tomorrow.




*Start the queue for bashing me here

---

>

Subsidised rehearsal/recording rooms? Just reduce or get rid of the VAT on them, this would bring the prices down by, potentially, 20%.

Sport facilities and sport equipment rental companies only have to pay 13.5% where as music rental/rehearsal facilities have to pay 21%.

miju

balducci wrote: »

Sport facilities and sport equipment rental companies only have to pay 13.5% where as music rental/rehearsal facilities have to pay 21%.

See thing is they are seen as luxury expenses. However, there are ways of getting this 21% back and that means registering for VAT (it's easy and VERY beneficial in ALOT of ways)