Rules Question - Senior Cup @ Druid's Heath

ShriekingSheet

On the 12th at Druid's Heath, short/right of the green there's a pond with red stakes. In a Senior Cup match at the weekend, a chap knocked his second into the pond. Both players and a couple of others were walking along the edge, as the guy was determining his (clearly seen) point of entry.

It turns out, there were few enough stakes, and the pond itself curved outside the technical line of the hazard (from one stake to another).

The player pointed this out. Strictly speaking, the point at which the ball crossed the hazard line was a good few feet into the pond. This meant that two club lengths out from point of entry would still be a foot deep in water.

There's all sorts of speculative replies, such as water outside a hazard being deemed "casual water"... so do you have to drop in the pond and then claim that? Or, is there a Rule or Decision that states the natural edge of the pond can be used as a point of entry?

It was an interesting one. Any ideas?
It's miles from the clubhouse so they didn't bother calling the GUI as the hole was all but lost anyway.

thegen

Sheet,

Do you know who qualified there on Sat?

ozymandias10

shriek..had something similar a few years ago...what we were told is that you are taking relief so you have to get relief from the hazard. I would think in that instance and with the casual water rule they could dro[ outside the water on line of entry that all agree on.

Russman

As far as I know there is a ruling or decision to the effect that its the natural edge of the hazard, can't find it at the moment though !

PhilipMarlowe

That's considered an improperly marked hazard as far as I know and the ball should be considered to be IN the hazard even if it's lying in water outside the line of stakes.
Then with that in mind, you'd drop outside the natural margin of the water.

Gophur

From RandA.org

Q:
Stakes defining the margin of a water hazard were improperly installed. As a result, an area which clearly was part of the water hazard was outside the stakes and, thus, technically was outside the hazard. A player's ball came to rest in water in this area. The player claimed that, in view of the alignment of the stakes, his ball was in casual water through the green. Was the claim valid?

A:
No. The Committee erred in not properly defining the margin of the hazard as required by Rule 33-2a, but a player is not entitled to take advantage of such an error. Since it was clear that the place where the player's ball lay was within the natural boundaries of the water hazard, the claim should not be upheld.

Q:
An unmarked ditch on the left of a hole is in bounds, but the left-hand margin is out of bounds. Accordingly, it is impossible to drop behind the water hazard under Rule 26-1b. A player's ball comes to rest in the ditch. Is the player restricted to playing the ball as it lies or proceeding under Rule 26-1a?

A:
It is the responsibility of the Committee to define accurately the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards – see Rule 33-2a. However, if the Committee has not done so, the ditch is, by definition, a lateral water hazard and the player should be permitted to proceed under Rule 26-1c(i).

ShriekingSheet

That's pretty conflicting and inconclusive in my eyes.

thegen

Had an instance of thus in The Garden Trophy this year and it went with what Licksy has said in his post. It was never even brought up as an issue.

Russman

thegen wrote: »

It was never even brought up as an issue.

+1 to that approach in this instance.

Nerdstrom

When taking relief, you are entitled to stance and swing relief from the hazard.

For example, if a willow tree growing in a hazard, has overhanging branches stretching to 20 feet over hazard line. You cannot drop the ball where the branches interfere with your swing, because you must take full swing relief, and those branches are deemed to be part of the hazard.

The OP has brought up a case where the two players had a lack of understanding of stance relief. I assume the water was all part of the main body of the water hazard, and therefore is deemed part of the hazard so you are entitled to relief where the water does not interfere with your stance.

The player pointed this out. Strictly speaking, the point at which the ball crossed the hazard line was a good few feet into the pond. This meant that two club lengths out from point of entry would still be a foot deep in water.

Those two clubs lengths are only brought into the equation after finding the nearest point of relief (from point of entry) that is no nearer hole, and the player has full swing and stance relief from hazard. The club lengths are not from the hazard line, and IMO, the point of entry was the point at which the ball crossed the water that was clearly part of the pond (a foot deep) and not casual water, as it was obviously not normally fairway or rough.

On a side not i dont think quoting the rules directly does anyone any favours, as our game has the most confusing set of rules of any !!

Also I agree with Licksy and Thegen's approach.
Get on with it !!

Daithio9

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

That's pretty conflicting and inconclusive in my eyes.

Seems pretty straight forward to me. How are you finding it confusing?

Daithio9

Nerdstrom wrote: »

When taking relief, you are entitled to stance and swing relief from the hazard.

For example, if a willow tree growing in a hazard, has overhanging branches stretching to 20 feet over hazard line. You cannot drop the ball where the branches interfere with your swing, because you must take full swing relief, and those branches are deemed to be part of the hazard.

The OP has brought up a case where the two players had a lack of understanding of stance relief. I assume the water was all part of the main body of the water hazard, and therefore is deemed part of the hazard so you are entitled to relief where the water does not interfere with your stance.

Those two clubs lengths are only brought into the equation after finding the nearest point of relief (from point of entry) that is no nearer hole, and the player has full swing and stance relief from hazard. The club lengths are not from the hazard line, and IMO, the point of entry was the point at which the ball crossed the water that was clearly part of the pond (a foot deep) and not casual water, as it was obviously not normally fairway or rough.

On a side not i dont think quoting the rules directly does anyone any favours, as our game has the most confusing set of rules of any !!

Also I agree with Licksy and Thegen's approach.
Get on with it !!

This is incorrect. You have to drop the ball within 2 club lenghts if you are proceeding under that option, and that's only for a lateral hazard, the margins of the hazard extend vertically and not as you suggest horizontally .

Nerdstrom

Within two club lengths of your nearest point of relief that is no nearer the hole, not from the hazard line

Also I am open to correction about the swing relief, as I can't be totally certain, but i didnt suggest hazard margins went horizontally!

Daithio9

Nerdstrom wrote: »

Within two club lengths of your nearest point of relief that is no nearer the hole, not from the hazard line

Also I am open to correction about the swing relief, as I can't be totally certain, but i didnt suggest hazard margins went horizontally!

When taking the option of a 2 club lenght 1 stroke penalty relief from a lateral water hazard you must drop within the 2 clubs of the hazard line no nearer the hole. I'm not sure where you are getting "nearest point of relief" from in relation to this option.

GreeBo

I think Nerdstrom is making the point that when taking relief from something, you must actually gain relief from it. e.g if you drop a ball (under penalty) from a tree and it rolls back to that tree then you are not receiving relief so you redrop. Same from dropping out of GUR, you cannot be standing in GUR if you have taken relief from it.

Daithio9

GreeBo wrote: »

I think Nerdstrom is making the point that when taking relief from something, you must actually gain relief from it. e.g if you drop a ball (under penalty) from a tree and it rolls back to that tree then you are not receiving relief so you redrop. Same from dropping out of GUR, you cannot be standing in GUR if you have taken relief from it.

Your reference point for taking relief from a hazard is the point in which it last crossed, hence "nearest point of relief" does not come into it.
In your example of taking a penalty drop from a tree and your ball rolls back towards the tree and you're still interfered by the tree, you may play it as it lies or take another penalty drop.
GUR is a free drop and as such is nearest point of relief and then within 1 club lenght and you must take full relief when availing of that option.

fullstop

Nerdstrom wrote: »

Within two club lengths of your nearest point of relief that is no nearer the hole, not from the hazard line

Also I am open to correction about the swing relief, as I can't be totally certain, but i didnt suggest hazard margins went horizontally!

Nearest point of relief applies to a free drop (from GUR etc.) AFAIK. When dealing with a hazard you must drop withing 2 clublengths of the line of the hazard, or back as far as you like keeping point of entry in a direct line between you and the hole.

GreeBo

Daithio9 wrote: »

Your reference point for taking relief from a hazard is the point in which it last crossed, hence "nearest point of relief" does not come into it.
In your example of taking a penalty drop from a tree and your ball rolls back towards the tree and you're still interfered by the tree, you may play it as it lies or take another penalty drop.
GUR is a free drop and as such is nearest point of relief and then within 1 club lenght and you must take full relief when availing of that option.

Hmm does anyone know if that has changed recently, I was quoted my interpretation above by a rules guru in the last couple of months.

From RANDA :Times when you are entitled to a redrop

[the ball] rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);

I have to say that I think thats a pretty unfair rule. You decide that your ball is unplayable so you take a drop, the ball rolls back under the same tree and its just tough luck?:(

Daithio9

GreeBo wrote: »

Hmm does anyone know if that has changed recently, I was quoted my interpretation above by a rules guru in the last couple of months.

From RANDA :Times when you are entitled to a redrop


I have to say that I think thats a pretty unfair rule. You decide that your ball is unplayable so you take a drop, the ball rolls back under the same tree and its just tough luck?:(

Yes it's tough luck, learn to drop the ball better imo, also it's not your only option, line of flight and replay from the spot you last played are the other two.

charlieIRL

Nerdstrom wrote: »

as our game has the most confusing set of rules of any !!

my head is melted trying to remember all the rules regarding hazards!!:o

fullstop wrote: »

AFAIK. When dealing with a hazard you must drop withing 2 clublengths of the line of the hazard, or back as far as you like keeping point of entry in a direct line between you and the hole.

Few quick ones - can you choose either option or does it depend on the colour of the stakes?

GreeBo

Daithio9 wrote: »

Yes it's tough luck, learn to drop the ball better imo, also it's not your only option, line of flight and replay from the spot you last played are the other two.

How can you drop a ball "better"? If its going to roll then its going to roll. Ideally you want it to roll forward or more than two club lengths.

Often Replay and back are worse than 2 club lengths...

I also noticed that if you drop on the third attempt rather than place its a penalty. Another one for the stupid rules thread methinks.:rolleyes:

IITYWYBMAD

GreeBo wrote: »

How can you drop a ball "better"? If its going to roll then its going to roll. Ideally you want it to roll forward or more than two club lengths.

Often Replay and back are worse than 2 club lengths...

I also noticed that if you drop on the third attempt rather than place its a penalty. Another one for the stupid rules thread methinks.:rolleyes:

You have a number of options for an unplayable lie. If the drop is not your best option, and depending on the circumstances, take another option. Secondly, you are not confined to the one 'area' with a drop.

GreeBo

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

You have a number of options for an unplayable lie. If the drop is not your best option, and depending on the circumstances, take another option. Secondly, you are not confined to the one 'area' with a drop.

As above, often a drop can be the best option. I just disagree with the idea of taking a penalty relief and it then being a lottery whether or not you actually get relief.

In the scenario where the ball has the potential to roll back to the original location it probably doesnt matter where in the 2 clublenghts you drop it.

I guess the rule is there so that you cannot drop your way out from the middle of a forest..but I would have said that each tree is a different "hazard" in this scenario.

IITYWYBMAD

GreeBo wrote: »

As above, often a drop can be the best option. I just disagree with the idea of taking a penalty relief and it then being a lottery whether or not you actually get relief.

Welcome to golf. Like I said you have a number of options, if a drop is not your best option, go back and play it from where you originally hit it, or don't hit it into the trees the first time :-}. What would you suggest as an alternative? Place the ball?

In the scenario where the ball has the potential to roll back to the original location it probably doesnt matter where in the 2 clublenghts you drop it.

Again, it depends. Look at the scenario Bradley Dredge found himself in on the 14th (I think) on Saturday in Loch Lomand. It made a huge difference to him where the 2 club lengths left hijm, and he played a marvelous 6 iron to par the hole, after his drop.

GreeBo

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Welcome to golf. Like I said you have a number of options, if a drop is not your best option, go back and play it from where you originally hit it, or don't hit it into the trees the first time :-}. What would you suggest as an alternative? Place the ball?

I would expect the rule to be consistent with the ruling for taking a free drop from an obstruction. If your ball rolls back to the obstruction you get another free drop. Since you have already taken a penalty it seems downright mean to penalise again IMO.

PhilipMarlowe

But an obstruction isn't "supposed" to be there which is why you get the free drop.
Taking a penalty drop is an option which can get you out of trouble so you aren't really owed any favours as such and you have alternatives also.

GreeBo

Licksy wrote: »

But an obstruction isn't "supposed" to be there which is why you get the free drop.
Taking a penalty drop is an option which can get you out of trouble so you aren't really owed any favours as such and you have alternatives also.

Yeah I can see that point of view and I dont expect that a penalty drop gets you out of all trouble, but I think it should get you out of the specific piece of trouble you are dropping from.

e.g It should get you out from under the specific tree you are using to declare your ball unplayable, but it shouldnt get you out of the forest.

IITYWYBMAD

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah I can see that point of view and I dont expect that a penalty drop gets you out of all trouble, but I think it should get you out of the specific piece of trouble you are dropping from.

e.g It should get you out from under the specific tree you are using to declare your ball unplayable, but it shouldnt get you out of the forest.

As Licksy says, any "man made" object is considered an obstruction, and you get full relief from that, without penalty, under the local rules. Some clubs differ wrt sprinkler heads. pathways etc, but as a 'general' rule, relief is normally taken.

A tree, is not man made, and is usually considered an integral part of the course. Like I said previously, a drop may not be your best option every time, so take another option if you are going to be further penalised. The rules are not really there to "get you out of trouble" they are there to be used as rules, as obvious as it sounds. So don't take the drop, take another option.

GreeBo

Just to clarify my point
I'm not stating that you should get free relief or that you should automatically get relief under 2 club penalty drop. My only "issue" is that if you have determined that a drop will give you relief but the ball subsequently roll back to the obstruction I think its harsh that to redrop is another penalty.

We are starting to circle around here and are already way off topic so prolly best to move along at this stage!