Public sector needs more cuts

WalterMitty

http://www.sbpost.ie/news/irish-public-sector-workers-among-worlds-highest-earners-50628.html

Ireland’s doctors, nurses and teachers are among the highest paid in the world, according to new figures that highlight the large scale of the public sector pay bill.

The figures, compiled by the National Competitiveness Council and Forfás, shows that Ireland’s specialist doctors enjoy the highest average public salaries in the world, while Irish nurses are the fourth best paid in the world.


We are not the rich country we thought we were. We cant keep paying public sector pay and social welfare that is near highest in world.

127.0.0.1

Privatize it all, give staff some shares, The market will take care of the rest. Of course the unions would scream murder

Nijmegen

Blather blather pension levy cut... Blather blather hard workers... Blather blather hope you're never in a car crash.... Blather blather, because I'm worth it.

George Orwell 1982

How come it doesn't mention the legal profession? They have been blatantly running a racket for decades now.

hobochris

127.0.0.1 wrote: »

Privatize it all, give staff some shares, The market will take care of the rest. Of course the unions would scream murder

That's why the unions needed to be broken thatcher style.. only good thing that women ever did, well besides invent soft whip ice cream.

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

How come it doesn't mention the legal profession? They have been blatantly running a racket for decades now.

They are not paid exclusively from public funds like other professions(exclusion of judges).

meditraitor

127.0.0.1 wrote: »

Privatize it all, give staff some shares, The market will take care of the rest. Of course the unions would scream murder

You never heard of Eircom?

Tim Robbins

WalterMitty wrote: »

http://www.sbpost.ie/news/irish-public-sector-workers-among-worlds-highest-earners-50628.html

Ireland’s doctors, nurses and teachers are among the highest paid in the world, according to new figures that highlight the large scale of the public sector pay bill.

The figures, compiled by the National Competitiveness Council and Forfás, shows that Ireland’s specialist doctors enjoy the highest average public salaries in the world, while Irish nurses are the fourth best paid in the world.


We are not the rich country we thought we were. We cant keep paying public sector pay and social welfare that is near highest in world.

Read it this morning. Incredible stuff. Croke Park agreement means there can be no more cuts which means that there will be cuts to facilities, special needs things, basically anything that doesn't have a very strong lobby group behind it.

Tim Robbins

meditraitor wrote: »

You never heard of Eircom?

Ever hear of the "local loop" which Eircom kept and thus meant they had a monopoly on crucial part of every telecomms network - thus preventing fair competition and progress in telecomms.

cson

hobochris wrote: »

That's why the unions needed to be broken thatcher style.. only good thing that women ever did, well besides invent soft whip ice cream.




They are not paid exclusively from public funds like other professions(exclusion of judges).

3 words for you; Free. Legal. Aid.

127.0.0.1

meditraitor wrote: »

You never heard of Eircom?

Good point, tho a solution also exists
Privatize it into 3-4 companies OR have each hospital be a company and compete against each other
Eircom did not and does not compete since they were handed a near monopoly on a silver platter
With Labour involved in making sure the Union members dont pay tax on shares (who would have imagined!)

Alternatively try the Dutch model

P.S: it is interesting how CSO public service stats always exclude health

hobochris

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Read it this morning. Incredible stuff. Croke Park agreement means there can be no more cuts which means that there will be cuts to facilities, special needs things, basically anything that doesn't have a very strong lobby group behind it.

Did the Croke park agreement mention anything of redundancies though?

Tim Robbins

127.0.0.1 wrote: »

Privatize it all, give staff some shares, The market will take care of the rest. Of course the unions would scream murder

I don't think you need to privatise it all. Just need to being labour costs down. We share a currency with 16 other countries. It is ridiculous that we pay more than the strongest country economically in this region.

It is the equivalent of rents in Roscommon being more expensive than Dublin.

127.0.0.1

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't think you need to privatise it all. Just need to being labour costs down. We share a currency with 16 other countries. It is ridiculous that we pay more than the strongest country economically in this region.

It is the equivalent of rents in Roscommon being more expensive than Dublin.

You have a good point and example

Eitherway the unions would have to be broken since they would scupper any plans to save money and become more productive in the provision of services

WalterMitty

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Read it this morning. Incredible stuff. Croke Park agreement means there can be no more cuts which means that there will be cuts to facilities, special needs things, basically anything that doesn't have a very strong lobby group behind it.

yeah, public sector workers look after themselves first and the public service users 2nd. We spend more per capita than the worlds best health systems in canda and France but because individual pay is so high the overall quality is far lower. Basically Germany can hire two consultants for the every one we hire, thats gonna hit the quality of service that can be provided and this is when the country is quite young demographically , when we get older(as a nation) the service will collapse.

Tim Robbins

WalterMitty wrote: »

yeah, public sector workers look after themselves first and the public service users 2nd. We spend more per capita than the worlds best health systems in canda and France but because individual pay is so high the overall quality is far lower. Basically Germany can hire two consultants for the every one we hire, thats gonna hit the quality of service that can be provided and this is when the country is quite young demographically , when we get older(as a nation) the service will collapse.

I agree but you have to admit the politicians are loosing a propaganda war against the Unions. The union leader have everythign thinking the public service have it hard and are innocent victims that are been very unfairly treated. The only political party to come out against the public sector was probably the PDs and look what happened.
Jack O'Connor and David Begg must break their pants laughing giving out about injustice and then they are both on 200K+ a year themselves.

deise blue

hobochris wrote: »

Did the Croke park agreement mention anything of redundancies though?

Yes - no compulsory redundancies.

Again another academic debate , pay cuts will not be back on the table until 2014.

With an election due in 2012 ( at the the latest ) the current Government will surely be tempted to part reverse pay cuts to those earning the least in the Public Sector.

WalterMitty

deise blue wrote: »

Yes - no compulsory redundancies.

Again another academic debate , pay cuts will not be back on the table until 2014.

With an election due in 2012 ( at the the latest ) the current Government will surely be tempted to part reverse pay cuts to those earning the least in the Public Sector.

Reverse?HA They might like to do that to win an election but the ECB are calling the shots. We are borrowing 20BILLION a year to keep the country going, if anything much bigger cuts are needed to all areas of Gov spending. I think FF are just doing enough to pacify the ECB and markets and know they will lose next election and let the ECB/IMF come in under FG/Labour's reign so they wont be the party that "Sold Ireland out to the markets and the IMF/ECB"

deise blue

WalterMitty wrote: »

Reverse?HA They might like to do that to win an election but the ECB are calling the shots. We are borrowing 20BILLION a year to keep the country going, if anything much bigger cuts are needed to all areas of Gov spending. I think FF are just doing enough to pacify the ECB and markets and know they will lose next election and let the ECB/IMF come in under FG/Labour's reign so they wont be the party that "Sold Ireland out to the markets and the IMF/ECB"

If quantifable savings are made in PS spending as a result of implementation of the Croke Park agreement and such savings are verified by the appointed examining body then a portion of such savings will be used to part reverse pay cuts.

I agree that substantial savings will have to be made in terms of PS spending but they ain't coming from pay cuts.

Count Dooku

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Read it this morning. Incredible stuff. Croke Park agreement means there can be no more cuts

subject to no currently-unforeseen budgetary deterioration

dissed doc

That article is a bunch of garbage for a wide variety of reasons. On the average salary of €173k/year for a consultant in Ireland, the take home net pay is around 7000 a month. Good, but no better than the average take home pay of £5500 of a UK consultant, or around €5000 for a German consultant.

Net salary is what should be quoted, not magical gross numbers that ignore 55% overall tax rate.s

murphaph

dissed doc wrote: »

On the average salary of €173k/year for a consultant in Ireland, the take home net pay is around 7000 a month. Good, but no better than [..] around €5000 for a German consultant.

Eh? 7,000 is 40% more than 5,000!!! Quite a bit "better" methinks!! Also, Ireland is flat broke, running a massive current defecit and Germany is not, but German consultants are still paid a lot less (if your figures are accurate).

irishh_bob

dissed doc wrote: »

That article is a bunch of garbage for a wide variety of reasons. On the average salary of €173k/year for a consultant in Ireland, the take home net pay is around 7000 a month. Good, but no better than the average take home pay of £5500 of a UK consultant, or around €5000 for a German consultant.

Net salary is what should be quoted, not magical gross numbers that ignore 55% overall tax rate.s

only union spinning spoofers quote salary in NET ,everyone else uses GROSS as thier term of reference , when i bought a ford focus two years ago , the price wasnt 15k NET ( + 5K vrt for the gov ) paid to ***** motors , it was twenty tonne to the dealer

Nijmegen

dissed doc wrote: »

That article is a bunch of garbage for a wide variety of reasons. On the average salary of €173k/year for a consultant in Ireland, the take home net pay is around 7000 a month. Good, but no better than the average take home pay of £5500 of a UK consultant, or around €5000 for a German consultant.

Net salary is what should be quoted, not magical gross numbers that ignore 55% overall tax rate.s

What the hell planet do you live on that €2,000 a month is a small difference?

Denerick

Departmental budgets should be cut across the board by 5-10%. This should be achieved by shedding some jobs and cutting the fat to the very bone. I've worked in the admin side of the civil service - I know personally how underworked they are. Almost 50% of our administrative, bureaucratic class could be cut without any discernible negative impact on our public services.

Princess Zelda

Since we're quoting articles:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/were-second-most-expensive-country-in-eu-to-buy-groceries-2238248.html

We just rank behind Finland as most expensive place to buy groceries. You can quote saying that the UK public servants are paid less, but their expenditure is less. Legal aid cost €57.5 million last year. Five solicitors earned more than one million each in legal aid last year. That scheme needs a radical overhaul, because not everybody who claims legal aid should be entitled to it. Also, afaik the solicitor can be in the district court representing say 6 different clients, all of whom he/she is remanding. He/she gets paid legal aid for every one of them clients, even though he/she has to be in court anyway. I am probably not wording myself correctly, but I feel there should be a set fee/capped fee for solicitors daily appearances in court.

Sorry to off on a tangent there, but the public sector always seems to be the area that people always look at for cuts. Again I reiterate that 6 solicitors in Dublin earned more than 1 million each last year. That's over twice the amount that the person who is leading our country is earning (and I think he is grossly overpaid)

Riskymove

Nijmegen wrote: »

What the hell planet do you live on that €2,000 a month is a small difference?

I beleieve he is suggesting that due to different tax/levy systems the net salary is similar to a consultant in UK, Ireland or germany


I have no idea if he is correct

irishh_bob wrote:

everyone else uses GROSS as thier term of reference

well and good for in ireland but if comparing abroad then we should take into account tax regimes

Nijmegen

Ireland's tax rates are about 20% lower than Germany, if I recall the last time I employed a German who came across to Ireland earlier in the year.

Riskymove

Nijmegen wrote: »

Ireland's tax rates are about 20% lower than Germany, if I recall the last time I employed a German who came across to Ireland earlier in the year.

you suggest germans on the higher rate pay 60-68%?


EDIT

from Google / wikipedia:

Income tax rate in 2010
No income tax is charged on the basic allowance, which is €8,004 for unmarried persons and €16,008 for jointly assessed married couples. Beyond this threshold, the marginal tax rate increases linearly from 14% to 24% for a taxable income of €13,469 (€26,938 for married couples). In the subsequent interval up to a taxable income of €52,881 (€105,762 for married couples), the marginal tax rate increases linearly from 24% to 42%. The last change to the occurs at a taxable income of €250,730 (€501,460 for married couples) when the marginal tax rate jumps from 42% to 45%. The course of the marginal tax rate and the resulting average tax rate are depicted in the graph to the right.

[edit] Solidarity surcharge
On top of income tax, the so-called solidarity surcharge (Solidaritaetszuschlag) is levied at a rate of 5.5% of the income tax for higher incomes. Up to €972 (€1,944 for married couples) annual income tax, no solidarity surcharge is levied. Above this threshold, the solidarity surcharge rate increases continuously until it reaches 5.5% when the annual income tax is €1,340.69 (€2,681.38 for married couples).

For example, if €10000 income tax result from a certain annual taxable income, a solidarity surcharge of €550 will be levied on top. As a result, the tax payer owes the taxation office €10550.

the top seems to be 45% (for a very high earner) + 5.5 %

so 50.5% max

Princess Zelda

Income tax rate in 2010 in Germany

No income tax is charged on the basic allowance, which is €8,004 for unmarried persons and €16,008 for jointly assessed married couples. Beyond this threshold, the marginal tax rate increases linearly from 14% to 24% for a taxable income of €13,469 (€26,938 for married couples). In the subsequent interval up to a taxable income of €52,881 (€105,762 for married couples), the marginal tax rate increases linearly from 24% to 42%. The last change to the occurs at a taxable income of €250,730 (€501,460 for married couples) when the marginal tax rate jumps from 42% to 45%.

That is from Wikipedia.

Nijmegen

Riskymove wrote: »

you suggest germans on the higher rate pay 60-68%?

It depends on salary. Generally at lower salaries in Ireland there's a bigger marginal difference. Ones overall marginal rate.

As we're talking high salaries however, let's take a €173,000 comparison, from two tax calculators I find reliable, http://www.deloitte.ie/tc/ and http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm

We'll assume you pay no Church tax, though many Germans do. And you pay the standard 14% health insurance, rather than having a private premium. You get the basic allowance of €8,004 (see what a real, complex tax system looks like!)

In Ireland, you take home €97,168 PA, with a marginal tax rate of 43.84% vs Germany where you would take home €91,897 for a 46.88% marginal rate.

So in Germany you would be paying only 3.04% more in tax for this salary.

If you have children etc it will become a lot more complicated in Germany, but there you go, that's the tax premium. What was the pay premium again?

Riskymove

Nijmegen wrote: »

In Ireland, you take home €97,168 PA, with a marginal tax rate of 43.84% vs Germany where you would take home €91,897 for a 46.88% marginal rate.

funny I hear a lot on these boards about a tax rate much higher than that


I puit 173,000 into the Deloitte and get around €93,000 take home not €97k


it also does not include pension levy

Scarab80

dissed doc wrote: »

That article is a bunch of garbage for a wide variety of reasons. On the average salary of €173k/year for a consultant in Ireland, the take home net pay is around 7000 a month. Good, but no better than the average take home pay of £5500 of a UK consultant, or around €5000 for a German consultant.

Net salary is what should be quoted, not magical gross numbers that ignore 55% overall tax rate.s

You are confusing the marginal tax rate with the effective tax rate, the monthly takehome for someone on that salary is 8,482 per month. That doesn't take account of the pension levy, with the pension levy take home is 7,761 per month but of course if you want to include that you should also include the present value of government contributions to the pension.

Re Tax Rates

Nijmegen

Riskymove wrote: »

funny I hear a lot on these boards about a tax rate much higher than that


I puit 173,000 into the Deloitte and get around €93,000 take home not €97k


it also does not include pension levy

That's because you are no selecting that the person is an employee. A self employed person pays less PRSI but gets very little off the dole if they go bust.

We have a pay premium of 2k a month, €24,000 a year to make up.

Riskymove

Nijmegen wrote: »

That's because you are no selecting that the person is an employee.

ah I see

so are there any situations whereby germans pay 20% more tax than irish?

Riskymove

Nijmegen wrote: »

We have a pay premium of 2k a month, €24,000 a year to make up.

well, I am not a doctor so i have no idea but do the German and Irish specialists have same workloads, responsibiliites etc?


also i presume the report is based on the average Irish wage and average german one....i.e. that some German docs earn more than some irish etc???

Nijmegen

Riskymove wrote: »

ah I see

so are there any situations whereby germans pay 20% more tax than irish?

Married with 1 child on 40k a year nets you €34,654 a year in Ireland, vs €23,487 in Germany.

Nijmegen

Riskymove wrote: »

well, I am not a doctor so i have no idea but do the German and Irish specialists have same workloads, responsibiliites etc?


also i presume the report is based on the average Irish wage and average german one....i.e. that some German docs earn more than some irish etc???

I'm not a doctor either, but I can tell you this: A €24,000 a year pay premium is not justified. We have higher costs than the best run social health services in the world. That is unacceptable. Pay deals in Ireland never had anything to do with performance.

Riskymove

Nijmegen wrote: »

Married with 1 child on 40k a year nets you €34,654 a year in Ireland, vs €23,487 in Germany.

what causes the big gap here?

less allowances in germany? or higher tax rates?

Nijmegen

Riskymove wrote: »

what causes the big gap here?

less allowances in germany? or higher tax rates?

A much higher marginal tax rate. And that is without church tax...

The overall German marginal rate of tax is higher than Ireland's because in Ireland we have very, very low taxes on the low paid. Half the workforce paying nothing, etc.

The German system is actually quite intelligent, taxing you at increments and depending on circumstance, every tax and benefit is linked up.

But to pay for their social state, they tax a lot more.As you can see above, single, no kids, is double the tax in Germany v Ireland.

GoldenTickets

LOL :pac:

Can't believe you guys are still on here whining about the public sector so many months down the line! Some of yez have been moaning for over a year about this. Sure the public sector has been mangled with cuts and you're still not happy. Come up with something new to complain about at least. Yez are like a broken record of a baby crying so yez are. Sad, it is.

LOL :pac:

danbohan

GoldenTickets wrote: »

LOL :pac:

Can't believe you guys are still on here whining about the public sector so many months down the line! Some of yez have been moaning for over a year about this. Sure the public sector has been mangled with cuts and you're still not happy. Come up with something new to complain about at least. Yez are like a broken record of a baby crying so yez are. Sad, it is.

LOL :pac:

had a nice long boozy lunch curtiosy of taxpayer did we ?

Japer

danbohan wrote: »

had a nice long boozy lunch curtiosy of taxpayer did we ?

lol. Public sector workers are entitled to surf the net when at work, nothing wrong with that. As long as it does not interfere with the tea breaks and the early clocking off time.

On a more serious note, yes the main Sunday Business Post front page headline article is correct.
As someone else said, we are not the rich country we thought we were, and we cant keep paying public sector pay, public service pensions and social welfare that is near highest in world.

Riskymove

Japer wrote: »

lol. Public sector workers are entitled to surf the net when at work, nothing wrong with that. As long as it does not interfere with the tea breaks and the early clocking off time.

welcome to the party jimmmy!!!

still a broken record i see

WalterMitty

GoldenTickets wrote: »

LOL :pac:

Can't believe you guys are still on here whining about the public sector so many months down the line! Some of yez have been moaning for over a year about this. Sure the public sector has been mangled with cuts and you're still not happy. Come up with something new to complain about at least. Yez are like a broken record of a baby crying so yez are. Sad, it is.

LOL :pac:

Your name is quite apt for someone working in the public sector.

Denerick

GoldenTickets wrote: »

LOL :pac:

Can't believe you guys are still on here whining about the public sector so many months down the line! Some of yez have been moaning for over a year about this. Sure the public sector has been mangled with cuts and you're still not happy. Come up with something new to complain about at least. Yez are like a broken record of a baby crying so yez are. Sad, it is.

LOL :pac:

I remember the days stuck behind a computer with no work to do, sending pointless messages over the internet utilising such neologisms as 'yez'. Those were the days

dissed doc

Nijmegen wrote: »

It depends on salary. Generally at lower salaries in Ireland there's a bigger marginal difference. Ones overall marginal rate.

As we're talking high salaries however, let's take a €173,000 comparison, from two tax calculators I find reliable, http://www.deloitte.ie/tc/ and http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm


In Ireland, you take home €97,168 PA, with a marginal tax rate of 43.84% vs Germany where you would take home €91,897 for a 46.88% marginal rate.

There is no account for pension levy in the Deloitte calculator. The pension levy is another deduction of around €16,000 per year on that salary (the pension itself is a separate payment). This makes the net salary on €173k around €83k/year, averaging a monthly salary of just under €7k net and an overal taxation burden of 52%.

Head The Wall

GoldenTickets wrote: »

LOL :pac:

Can't believe you guys are still on here whining about the public sector so many months down the line! Some of yez have been moaning for over a year about this. Sure the public sector has been mangled with cuts and you're still not happy. Come up with something new to complain about at least. Yez are like a broken record of a baby crying so yez are. Sad, it is.

LOL :pac:

The only thing that has been mangled and continues to be mangled are services that we receive. Meanwhile the people providing these services that no longer exist are still in their jobs doing god knows what. They may get a chance to change role when the CP agreement starts to come into effect whenever this happens.

I know it's mainly contract staff that have been let go from the PS in the last 2 years but there has been plenty of services cut since then. What have all these staff been doing since then

dissed doc wrote: »

There is no account for pension levy in the Deloitte calculator. The pension levy is another deduction of around €16,000 per year on that salary (the pension itself is a separate payment). This makes the net salary on €173k around €83k/year, averaging a monthly salary of just under €7k net and an overal taxation burden of 52%.

The pension levy is a pension contribution, it was only called a levy so they wouldn't have to cut the current PS pensions. Argue about it all you want and say it won't go into your pension etc but it is tax deductible and therefore classed as pensionable. It's a contribution you make to your pension that the government/taxpayers don't have to make for you

doc_17

Japer wrote: »

lol. Public sector workers are entitled to surf the net when at work, nothing wrong with that. .

When I worked in the chil benefit section of the civil service a few years ago in the summer nobody had access to internet sites other than say NUI sites or motortax.ie etc. All other non PS sites were off limits. Has this changed?

ardmacha

Argue about it all you want and say it won't go into your pension etc but it is tax deductible and therefore classed as pensionable.

The pension levy is a wage cut, as you say it does not go into your pension. Like every other wage cut you do not have to pay taxes on wages you did not receive. This tax deductable thing comes up every time, regardless of how often it is explained, which suggests that some people do not want to listen.

Everyone whose pay has been cut pays less tax.

Denerick

ardmacha wrote: »

The pension levy is a wage cut, as you say it does not go into your pension. Like every other wage cut you do not have to pay taxes on wages you did not receive. This tax deductable thing comes up every time, regardless of how often it is explained, which suggests that some people do not want to listen.

Everyone whose pay has been cut pays less tax.

To be fair, the public service have very generous pensions and it is only fair that they contribute more to this. The private sector don't have such luxuries.

Japer

WalterMitty wrote: »

Your name is quite apt for someone working in the public sector.

lol
And what abour "riskymove golden ticket" as a name for someone who posts when they are being paid by the taxpayer to work !!!