Anyone For Golf (FG Style)

Wide Road

Anyone read today's Sunday Indo. Enda will get a lot of flak for it but is it all justified? The party organisers are left with egg on their faces but the blame will end up on Endas doorstep. Unfairly in my opinion but that's life. Are some of his own trying to hang him out to dry or was it just a bad call by them?

trapsagenius

Wide Road wrote: »

Anyone read today's Sunday Indo. Enda will get a lot of flak for it but is it all justified? The party organisers are left with egg on their faces but the blame will end up on Endas doorstep. Unfairly in my opinion but that's life. Are some of his own trying to hang him out to dry or was it just a bad call by them?

Sorry OP, but is this what you're talking about?

EDIT:got rid of the link as it could just be confusing.

ressem

No not that article.
The paper ran a 2 page spread of the Fine Gael golf classic fundraiser, composed of 5 bylines. 3 of them mentioned a Michael O'Flynn, MD of a construction company.
It mostly focused on O'Flynn having donated an estimated €3K to FG to partake in the fundraiser, despite the company being "one of the country's most indebted construction firms " with €1billion of debts transferred to NAMA.

It's a bit of a stretch to call it equivalent to the Galway tent as Corcoran describes it.

Wide Road

ressem wrote: »

No not that article.
The paper ran a 2 page spread of the Fine Gael golf classic fundraiser, composed of 5 bylines. 3 of them mentioned a Michael O'Flynn, MD of a construction company.
It mostly focused on O'Flynn having donated an estimated €3K to FG to partake in the fundraiser, despite the company being "one of the country's most indebted construction firms " with €1billion of debts transferred to NAMA.

It's a bit of a stretch to call it equivalent to the Galway tent as Corcoran describes it.

Yeah, but the problem is where does the stretch stop. Are FG saying this is ok? If not, who organised the participants and why?

Liam Byrne

ressem wrote: »

It's a bit of a stretch to call it equivalent to the Galway tent as Corcoran describes it.

It might well be, but there is a question to be answered; how someone that can't repay loans is paying €3,000 to play golf.

That said, I don't know if organisers can vet every participant on every team in these things.

But the individual certainly has some questions to answer.

trapsagenius

ressem wrote: »

No not that article.
The paper ran a 2 page spread of the Fine Gael golf classic fundraiser, composed of 5 bylines. 3 of them mentioned a Michael O'Flynn, MD of a construction company.
It mostly focused on O'Flynn having donated an estimated €3K to FG to partake in the fundraiser, despite the company being "one of the country's most indebted construction firms " with €1billion of debts transferred to NAMA.

It's a bit of a stretch to call it equivalent to the Galway tent as Corcoran describes it.

Ok, thanks, I didn't really understand what the reference to golf in the title was all about.

Just to clarify, (because I don't read the sindo), is this the link-
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fg-taps-nama-10-developer-for-money-2263297.html ?

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It might well be, but there is a question to be answered; how someone that can't repay loans is paying €3,000 to play golf.

That said, I don't know if organisers can vet every participant on every team in these things.

But the individual certainly has some questions to answer.

Great post. Can the FG supporters or anyone else answer these questions?

ninty9er

It's no different to the Galway tent. If people wanted to go , they paid, however I don't think ordinary party members would be paying €3k for a round of golf.

ressem

Also
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/fine-gaels-cosying-up-to-developer-just-par-for-the-course-2263364.html and
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/a-developer-of-distinction-though-some-of-it-dubious-2263367.html

They are a bit mixed up. One article says that there is 16 billion in loans in various companies associated with O'Flynn gone to NAMA, another says one billion.

As for Liam's points, we don't know yet that the firm is not repaying loans. There's a fair chance that you're right looking at the average write down valuations, and their involvement in duds like the Elysian in Cork, but the company is not limited so it doesn't publish accounts.

Noonan ended corporate donations, Kenny allowed them again so I'd imagine that FG are saying that it's OK until they know that the company is failing to repay the taxpayer.

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It might well be, but there is a question to be answered; how someone that can't repay loans is paying €3,000 to play golf.

That said, I don't know if organisers can vet every participant on every team in these things.

But the individual certainly has some questions to answer.

Can any FG or anyone else answer these questions?

Hazlittle

I dont really see the deal. FG are skint and someone wants to give them money. I personal judge parties on their policies.

higgz

Developers know the game, and not just golf!

They put their assets in the names of their wives and plus the fact that NAMA hasn't been fully operational yet means many developers haven't been hunted yet. Developers still think they're living in the celtic tiger days but those days are numbered. We've seen Sean Fitzpatrick go bankrupt and I've no doubt that many will follow suit. Our bankruptcy laws are some of the most draconian in the world. Their time will come.

jank

ninty9er wrote: »

It's no different to the Galway tent. If people wanted to go , they paid, however I don't think ordinary party members would be paying €3k for a round of golf.

I am sorry but this is VERY different to the Galway tent syndrome that has destroyed this country.

A more interesting question is that the week where we have learned that FF have have gambled about 500 BILLION Euros of our money to guarantee ALL the banks debts and deposits and that Lenihan was told of problems in Anglo that the Sunday Indo come out with a story about FG and a 3,000 euro game of golf.......

Doesn't Celia Larkin now write for them? I suppose she must do something as her own business is closed down.

Sunday Indo is the mouth piece of the FF party!
Larkin, Harris, Willie 'oDea, Brendam 'Buy a house' O'Connor...all puppets to the party

Einhard

jank wrote: »

Sunday Indo is the mouth piece of the FF party!
Larkin, Harris, Willie 'oDea, Brendam 'Buy a house' O'Connor...all puppets to the party

I'm sorry, but this is complete and utter BS. Do you even read the Sindo? Obviously not. Every single week, there are pages of opinion pieces calling for this government to go, lambasting Cowen and Ahern, and generally calling the current administration a shambles. I read the Sindo and the Sunday Times each week, and the former is always far more critical of government policy than the latter. I don't understand how anyone could possibly miss all this unless their judgement is informed purely by media snobbery which seems to be on the increase in Ireland.

jank

Einhard wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is complete and utter BS. Do you even read the Sindo? Obviously not. Every single week, there are pages of opinion pieces calling for this government to go, lambasting Cowen and Ahern, and generally calling the current administration a shambles. I read the Sindo and the Sunday Times each week, and the former is always far more critical of government policy than the latter. I don't understand how anyone could possibly miss all this unless their judgement is informed purely by media snobbery which seems to be on the increase in Ireland.

LOL, OK. I presume you are aware of the relationship of FF and Sir Tony o'Reilly owner of the independant group?
Sunday indo does the same job for FF as Fox news does for the GOP. Everyone knows this even FF'ers!

Liam Byrne

ressem wrote: »

As for Liam's points, we don't know yet that the firm is not repaying loans.

They're in NAMA, which implies an underperforming loan, no ?

Or :eek: is this a complete misdirection / dirt-throwing, with this guy's loan being one of the "performing" ones that NAMA took on to try not to lose too much ?

If the latter is the case, then it's a step beyond previous insinuations to highlight him as a "NAMA developer".

invinciblePRSTV

This is FG we're talking about, the tweedledee to FFs tweedledum. Let's remember that this is a party that reversed it's decision to ban the party accepting corporate donations.

After all, the nefarious relationship between corporate interests and party politics has never damaged the integrity of the Irish political system has it now?

ressem

They're in NAMA, which implies an underperforming loan, no ?

All loans the bank have that are in the areas of development/credit/shares listed (http://www.nama.ie/Publications/2010/NAMAEligibleBankAssetRegulation.pdf) and above 5 million were meant to be transferrable.

Unfortunately for the taxpayer, Bank of Ireland seemed to be getting away with not transferring some of their better loans. At least that's the gist I get from http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0709/1224274346854.html.

Publications the other week put it at 75% bad to 25% interest paying so far in NAMA tranche one.

Or is this a complete misdirection / dirt-throwing, with this guy's loan being one of the "performing" ones that NAMA took on to try not to lose too much ?

Unless they have information that they are not publishing, the paper is in this case guessing based on the numbers above and the firm's projects.

In my opinion, seems like a great fuss over an almost transparent donated 3K. They should list it and other donations over 200 quid or so even if the law does not require it.
Out of 60 sponsors I think they listed 2 in property development plus an estate agent. Until FG propose /keep developer tax reliefs in their manifesto I'm not going to get too riled up over it.

Deise Tom

Wide Road wrote: »

Anyone read today's Sunday Indo. Enda will get a lot of flak for it but is it all justified? The party organisers are left with egg on their faces but the blame will end up on Endas doorstep. Unfairly in my opinion but that's life. Are some of his own trying to hang him out to dry or was it just a bad call by them?

And to think when enda and co go on about the Fianna Fail tent etc................. Butter would not melt in their mouth.

Liam Byrne

Deise Tom wrote: »

And to think when enda and co go on about the Fianna Fail tent etc................. Butter would not melt in their mouth.

How is that relevant ?

Answer me this....this developer that was at the FG golf.....who bailed him out by robbing our money using NAMA ? FF or FG ?

jmayo

Jeeze the sindo were all out yesterday to have a dig at FG.
I was half expecting an article claiming that FG TDS have ritaul sacrifices of virgins or worse still babies. :rolleyes:

Was this article written by the same jody corcoran that insinuated that senator Eugene Reagan was involved in shady dealings with Goldman Sachs in US, because he happened to work for Irish subsidiary.
He then further tried to insinuate that he was not going to run in next GE becuase of this association, when all the world knows his wife has been seriously ill and underwent a number of major oiperations in Beaumont hospital and he decided to dedicate his time to her.

And why pray tell did this fine example of sindo journalistic objectivity decide to go after Eugene Reagan ? :rolleyes:
Perhaps it had something to do with fact that Eugene Reagan was the one guy in senate or Dáil that continually brought up the case of one willie o'dea ?

jody corcoran = ff toadie scumbag.

Nice try OP, but no matter what ff dirt fire it aint going to change the fact your party have screwed this country and all of us.

Wide Road

3 questions. Who is OP. Who is my party. Who is your party.

Gravy Fanatic

Them blueshirts cant play golf at all, at all, its only good scores for the soldiers of destiny in that game.

Liam Byrne

Gravy Fanatic wrote: »

Them blueshirts cant play golf at all, at all, its only good scores for the soldiers of destiny in that game.

Probably true, since every performance of the self-proclaimed "soldiers of destiny" is well below par*.

*excluding lining their own pockets and those of their mates

ninty9er

The only difference between the Galway tent and this BS is that you didn't have to pay €3k or anywhere near it to get into the tent. I think €20/€30 was the price with buffet in its final outing.

There is absolutely NO Difference apart from that, anyone who says otherwise is just completely unreasonable and would have to admit being completely poisoned against FF. Any poster who disagrees would clearly rather a hen and fox as Taoiseach than see a Fianna Fáil Taoiseach, and clearly is of the misguided belief that poultry and its predator could do no worse.

The reason why most people in this country never had a problem with the Galway tent is because it didn't make any difference to them, this makes no difference to people either.

Now I can accept that this is a legitimate fundraising exercise for FG in just the same manner as the tent was for FF, (FG still do a tent at Galway I think), but anyone who seeks to differentiate the 2 or what goes on at them (fuck all besides a bit of banter) needs to get a grip on reality.

Sully

Wouldn't be happy with this idea of developers getting in behind FG and donating, its something thats made FF what they are. Not as big as the Galway Tent, so its really not fair to compare them. Anyone who thinks they are similar, is of their own head in my view. We are taking much much bigger financial donations from many many more developers etc.

Overall, the country wants change from FF completely. They want a refreshing change, not just a spin off the current party. People are fed up of this shower, stale and repeadtive politics from a party that screws the poor and rewards the rich. There are many ways of getting us out of the recession, and many things the government should be doing but are not. We might be improving, but its causing hardship for many that could have avoided it. This is the FF way of doing this.

The Indo/Sunday Indo is a FF newspaper. Anybody who fails to see that is deluded or gullable. Yes they make plenty of digs at FF to make it "balanced" but in reality with their "exclusive interviews" and feature columns are out to help FF and plenty of articles out to attack Enda and Co. Heavily against Kenny because its seen as the party weak point. Iv never seen such a paper that is blindingly obvious FF pro. Week in, week out its all over FG like a dirty rash and making sure to spread the love on FF - but making up for it plenty of times for FF.

Where is the attack on Labour? Is it anywonder why they are riding high in the polls, FG are slipping and FF are regaining ground with the way the Irish media portray the opposition and the government. Its shocking to the core. Only part of a bigger problem, yes, but the media in Ireland have a lot to say with regards how this country feels.

bmaxi

This won't do FG a lot of good. If they can't see that this is one thing that is bound to irritate the voters, then they don't have the gumption to be in Government. Even their own Lucinda Creighton blasted the idea, unlike Phil Hogan who thought it was no big deal and FG wouldn't be altering their position. Now that's real FF speak

Deise Tom

Sully wrote: »

Wouldn't be happy with this idea of developers getting in behind FG and donating, its something thats made FF what they are. Not as big as the Galway Tent, so its really not fair to compare them. Anyone who thinks they are similar, is of their own head in my view. We are taking much much bigger financial donations from many many more developers etc.


The Indo/Sunday Indo is a FF newspaper. Anybody who fails to see that is deluded or gullable.

From little acorns grow great oaks.

The Indo is steeped in FG history. But maybe not so much in recent years. The Irish Press was always the FF paper.

Sully

Deise Tom wrote: »

From little acorns grow great oaks.

The Indo is steeped in FG history. But maybe not so much in recent years. The Irish Press was always the FF paper.

Oh hello, Tom

Yes I am fully aware of the Indo history, but I am not talking about the past. I am talking about the present. Please, catch up, we are in the year 2010

bijapos

Sully wrote: »

Wouldn't be happy with this idea of developers getting in behind FG and donating, its something thats made FF what they are. Not as big as the Galway Tent, so its really not fair to compare them. .

FG and its politicians have been receiving donations from developers for decades, it is not something that started last weekend, and just because "they are not as bad as FF" :rolleyes: doesn't make it any better.

They have been involved in dodgy rezonings for years, look at your own county council records, the vast majority of rezonings are voted in by FF and FG together. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I heard Enda Kenny on the One O'Clock news saying "FG have taken a very strong view on rogue developments" . This from the leader of a party who rezone like its going out of fashion (well it is to an extent with new planning legislation). FFS who does Kenny think he is?

The K Club incident was stupid and naieve on their part, they should have known that someone would have seen it, the fact that O'Flynn is in NAMA or not should not matter, corporate donations should be abolished so that political parties cannot be left open to influence by corporations or lobby groups.

Liam Byrne

bijapos wrote: »

FG and its politicians have been receiving donations from developers for decades, it is not something that started last weekend, and just because "they are not as bad as FF" :rolleyes: doesn't make it any better.

By definition, it does. "not as bad" = "better than".

It doesn't make it acceptable, true, but in the absence of an actual, ethical alternative, it certainly makes it "better". By definition.

bijapos

Liam Byrne wrote: »

By definition, it does. "not as bad" = "better than".

It doesn't make it acceptable, true, but in the absence of an actual, ethical alternative, it certainly makes it "better". By definition.

You finish 20th in the Premiership and you will be relegated.
You finish 19th in the Premiership and you will be relegated.

19th is not as bad as 20th, in fact its "better" but in reality its still crap.

FG have an alternative. Under Noonan they would not accept corporate donations, Kenny changed this and thus leaves the party open to possible influence and corruption of donators.

He could change this, he chooses not too.

Liam Byrne

bijapos wrote: »

You finish 20th in the Premiership and you will be relegated.
You finish 19th in the Premiership and you will be relegated.

19th is not as bad as 20th, in fact its "better" but in reality its still crap.

I would suggest that Ahern's "not gonna be paid back until found out" dig-outs and Callely's expenses and votes of confidence in O'Dea, and NAMA and the ill-thought-through bailouts are worth a LOT more than a single place in the table.

Also, where are the other 18 teams that you speak of ?

I agree with what you're saying to a point, particularly as we're not talking about the Premiership, we're talking about division 6 or 7.

But there's no denying that getting rid of FF would be a significant improvement.

We need a better class of politician overall, but FF are in a league of their own.

bijapos

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I would suggest that Ahern's "not gonna be paid back until found out" dig-outs and Callely's expenses and votes of confidence in O'Dea, and NAMA and the ill-thought-through bailouts are worth a LOT more than a single place in the table.

Also, where are the other 18 teams that you speak of ?

I was just using a metaphor, wasn't insinuating that there are 18 alternatives.

But there's no denying that getting rid of FF would be a significant improvement.

Couldn't agree more with you.

Liam Byrne

bijapos wrote: »

I was just using a metaphor, wasn't insinuating that there are 18 alternatives.

I appreciate that, but the extension of the metaphor is apt, because if there are 4 or 5 teams then the crap ones will still be in the top 5.

bijapos wrote: »

Couldn't agree more with you.

Well hopefully enough people will think the same way whenever we get the chance to choose.

That said, you've made some valid points; FF are dire, but FG need to be told to raise their game and close off all of the loopholes; "better than dire", even significantly better, is not good enough for this country.

simonj

Wel, after todays indo which I glanced at it seems FG have taken large donations from the NAMA developers- so much for a new start!!

Avé! Duci novo, similis duci seneci!

I have always said FF and FG are two cheeks of the one arse

Deise Tom

bijapos wrote: »

They have been involved in dodgy rezonings for years, look at your own county council records, the vast majority of rezonings are voted in by FF and FG together.

Has anything ever come of that or is the story just going to be let slip away.

simonj

Look, its quite simple. FF and FG really are the same, there is very little between them. The only real difference is 1922.

If non-dynastic, anti corruption FG politicians like Varadker and Creighton want change they should drop the FG whip, as George Lee should have done.

Otherwise - as we have seen with Noonan, the old war horses from the Christian Democratic side of FG will come to the fore, they are from old FG stock and will always put party first.

Activists from other parties like Labours Gerry Crowley, ex FG George Lee or the Greens Dierdre De Burca really want to break the mold and make a change, they should look at alternatives like Amhran Nua or even Fis Nua

Otherwise we are stuck in "La groundhogeen"

Deise Tom

Whats the name of the purposed new party i heard about recently. Brendan O'Brien on Newstalk was saying there was a meeting fixed for Kilkenny to guage opinons.

SoupyNorman

Question:
How thick do you have to be to allow a developer within a 20mile radius of a fund raiser for your political party.

Answer:
Enda Kenny thick.

To speak frankly, when FG do only marginally better the FF in the next election Kenny is going to look like a massive bozo(more so then now). He will take the honor of the worst party leader of all time. Leading the party into abject failure, not that I care mind as they'd of not got my vote.

simonj

As an aside on the Lucinda Creighton debate here it seems the only balls the men in FG have are Golfballs