TV aimed at women

Dudess

Just caught a few minutes of Cougartown and, in my opinion, it really is the most awful, soul-destroying muck. What else is there? Desperate Housewives, Grey's Anatomy/Private Practice, Sex & The City. I personally think DH and S&TC aren't without their good points - DH for a good yarn, S&TC for some sharp writing, but they all ultimately have a "let's be all ditzy and shallow and man-obsessed/hating and self absorbed" undercurrent.

Then, the equivalent for the boys: The Sopranos, The Wire - two of the most acclaimed, intelligent television shows of all time. Yeah I know women can watch them too, but they are, overall, "masculine" programmes.

What gives? I wonder is it because research has shown most women want the likes of what's in the first paragraph... or do TV big-wigs just present it to women anyway?

Kooli

Here's my take on it.

There are shows that are for everyone, and they tend to be about men. I would classify the Sopranos and the Wire in there, as well as the West Wing and Six Feet Under.

There are shows that are for women, because they are either about women, or about relationships. These are the ones you mentioned.

Then there are shows for men, which tend to be more based on action or violence. Stuff like CSI and all those Spartacus/Rome ones, and those western ones, and maybe 24, and probably others I've never heard of. And some of these are as brainless as the 'women's TV', just in a different way.

(Of course lots of men watch the women's shows, and lot's of women watch the men's shows before anyone chimes in!)

I think for something to be universal or mainstream (or at least SEEN as this), it has to be about men. When it's about women, it becomes a 'woman's show', or a 'niche' product. I'm not blaming anyone for this, but I think it's the way it happens. It's the same as when a film or TV show has a mainly black cast it can be classified as a 'black movie' and it isn't as easily seen as 'mainstream'.

I mentioned it in the 'chick flick' thread but I think some movies are too easily dismissed as 'chick flicks' just because they are about women (like 'His & Hers', the movie the other thread was about), when they couldn't be further from a 'chick flick'.

If anyone saw the show 'In Treatment', it was absolutely brilliant. It was 100% focused on relationships, which would have made it a girly show that men probably wouldn't have looked at apart from the fact that the main character is (a very masculine) Gabriel Byrne, and that's why it snuck into the mainstream. That's my theory anyway!

Wibbs

And maybe because what is culturally valued is more "male" in scope? So the sopranos is going to be seen as more valued out of the box? It was bloody good, so maybe not a great example and it deals almost entirely with relationships in between the gunshots. Yea OK crap example, but you know what I mean?

Silverfish

I can honestly say, I am a lot happier without the telly.

We have a telly but no tv stations, so we just ... er... download whatever we want to watch, so lately it's been The Sopranos start to finish, 6 Feet Under start to finish, Breaking Bad, Deadliest Catch, League of Gentlemen, Survivorman, Modern Family, The Office, I can thankfully say my head is a lot happier

Silverfish

Keno 92, please read the charter of this forum before posting again, thank you.

amacachi

Silverfish wrote: »

I can honestly say, I am a lot happier without the telly.

We have a telly but no tv stations, so we just ... er... download whatever we want to watch, so lately it's been The Sopranos start to finish, 6 Feet Under start to finish, Breaking Bad, Deadliest Catch, League of Gentlemen, Survivorman, Modern Family, The Office, I can thankfully say my head is a lot happier

I'm assuming you have a US iTunes account, otherwise how are you downloading it? :pac:

I don't know if I'd say that The Wire or The Sopranos or The Shield are just for men, they're for everyone. Then there's the programmes which are aimed at women which are ditzy fodder or depressed rich housewife shows and stuff aimed at men which is basically either explosions or men acting the "lad".
Though there better not be anything DH bashing on this thread! :P

phasers

Entourage is a better example of TV aimed at men imo, and that's crap as well. I think any programme aimed at one specific gender is going to be crap because it's always going to be missing something (Although I do enjoy Sex and the City it has to be said)

amacachi

phasers wrote: »

Entourage is a better example of TV aimed at men imo, and that's crap as well. I think any programme aimed at one specific gender is going to be crap because it's always going to be missing something (Although I do enjoy Sex and the City it has to be said)

Entourage was what I was hinting at in my post. :P I can why some people like SATC, but I'd hope people can understand why a lot of people really, really don't.

iguana

Dudess wrote: »

Then, the equivalent for the boys: The Sopranos, The Wire - two of the most acclaimed, intelligent television shows of all time. Yeah I know women can watch them too, but they are, overall, "masculine" programmes.

I can see how those shows could be considered 'male' especially The Wire, but if they are male there are plenty of similar shows that could be considered female. Big Love with three female leads and one male would be 'female' as would a show like Weeds. True Blood is based on the Sookie Stackhouse novels written by a woman with a female main character, so the show has as much a female slant as The Sopranos is male. Buffy and Veronica Mars are female and they were both witty, intelligent shows.

Costume dramas probably garner a larger female audience than male and while The Tudors (or anything by Austen imvho) isn't any more worthy than Desperate Housewives, dramas based on Dickens, Blackmore or Gaskell are far from frivolous.

I don't think shows like DH or SaTC say much more about women than shows like Top Gear or Entourage say about men.

Dudess

I do think Sex & The City can be intelligent, but it still resorts to vapidity when it could do without it, imo.

phasers wrote: »

Entourage is a better example of TV aimed at men imo

Yeah I know what you mean, ditto Californication.

iguana

Dudess wrote: »

I do think Sex & The City can be intelligent, but it still resorts to vapidity when it could do without it, imo.

I used to enjoy the show but I really disliked all of the main characters. They were all so shallow in so many ways. They were all more of a character trait than a character. The Romantic Princess, the Cynical Careerist, the one who Really Loves Sex and the "Fashionable" Writer.

iguana

iguana wrote: »

(or anything by Austen imvho) isn't any more worthy than Desperate Housewives, .

But Austen had wonderful satire :eek: especially Northanger Abbey!
It can be a bit much when it's usually interpreted as chicklit though

pickarooney

Kooli wrote: »

Here's my take on it.

There are shows that are for everyone, and they tend to be about men. I would classify the Sopranos and the Wire in there, as well as the West Wing and Six Feet Under.

SFU had a very even mix of well-written male and female characters. That was one of the things that made it so enjoyable.

Then there are shows for men, which tend to be more based on action or violence. Stuff like CSI and all those Spartacus/Rome ones, and those western ones, and maybe 24, and probably others I've never heard of. And some of these are as brainless as the 'women's TV', just in a different way.

I'd agree up to a point, but the only people I know who watch CSI are all women.

I think for something to be universal or mainstream (or at least SEEN as this), it has to be about men. When it's about women, it becomes a 'woman's show', or a 'niche' product. I'm not blaming anyone for this, but I think it's the way it happens. It's the same as when a film or TV show has a mainly black cast it can be classified as a 'black movie' and it isn't as easily seen as 'mainstream'.
[/quote]
The Wire had a mainly black cast but was never really classed as a 'black' show. I was going to point out that Lost was not all about men, but I suppose to be honest, inasmuch as it was about anything it was about men. The female characters are fairly weak throughout.

If anyone saw the show 'In Treatment', it was absolutely brilliant. It was 100% focused on relationships, which would have made it a girly show that men probably wouldn't have looked at apart from the fact that the main character is (a very masculine) Gabriel Byrne, and that's why it snuck into the mainstream. That's my theory anyway!

The original, Be'Tipul, had no Gabriel Byrne but was hugely successful in Israel. I would say it's anything but a mainstream show - despite the minimal non-wage production costs it barely breaks even. It's a fantastic show because it's well-written, conceived and acted - you don't have to be male, female, black or white to appreciate that.

Entourage is probably the best example of pure male TV. Californication has big cross-gender appeal, not least because of Duchovny, but it's genuinely funny. There are shows which appeal largely to one sex because the other will just never really get them fully. Peep Show for example - I can't imagine a woman ever really getting just how funny that is.

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

Peep Show for example - I can't imagine a woman ever really getting just how funny that is.

I think it's funny Only seen a couple of episodes though

I think this whole tv aimed at women thing is a bit like comedians.
A lot of male comedians seem to be hilarious to everyone because they're universal, they'll make jokes about situations anyone could find themselves in or at least appreciate. Female comedians - not that I've seen a massive amount - often seem to be based on female only experiences which don't translate well to males.
I wonder if there's any kind of pressure on guys - "oh you're watching a girly show" even though the show might just be about women without being girly?
That said I don't understand some kinds of slagging about "girly cars" either (unless it's pink or has flowers how can it be "girly") so I don't know...

pickarooney

I don't know if these are just common cases of sloppy, jaded writing, but I found the first series of Desperate Housewives excellent, and Grey's Anatomy was very watchable. Both however, became utterly awful as time went by and they resorted to the worst kind of recycling and clichés. GA just seemed to say 'forget about the engaging medical drama, let's just write soppy girl-angst'. Like The Wire, it's also a 'black' show but not seen as such any more than The Sopranos is seen as an 'Italian' show.

DH just became a sort of parody of itself where all the characters turned into caricatures and it eventually turned into exactly what it wasn't at first (it seemed to be marketed very dishonestly and very unfairly to the creators, from what I can see).

panda100

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't know if these are just common cases of sloppy, jaded writing, but I found the first series of Desperate Housewives excellent, and Grey's Anatomy was very watchable. Both however, became utterly awful as time went by and they resorted to the worst kind of recycling and clichés. GA just seemed to say 'forget about the engaging medical drama, let's just write soppy girl-angst'. Like The Wire, it's also a 'black' show but not seen as such any more than The Sopranos is seen as an 'Italian' show.

DH just became a sort of parody of itself where all the characters turned into caricatures and it eventually turned into exactly what it wasn't at first (it seemed to be marketed very dishonestly and very unfairly to the creators, from what I can see).

+1
This is the thing that annoys me most about Women's TV.

The first series of Sex and the City was excellent. However, as SATC and DH get more popular,particualrly with SATC, they seem to become stereotypes and big cliches of themselves.
The female characters in the first series of SATC are completely unrecognisable,both physically and personally, to whom they've become in the second movie. It seems to be hijacked by consumerism which is trying to make it all about shoes and materialistic sh*t.
In the first series a model even took the piss out of SJP nose, I can't imagine that happening with the characters now who lived in a superficial,fantasy bubble so far removed from womens lives its laughable.

I've never watched cougar town so I cant comment on that. One thing that turned me off it was a trailer with Courtney Cox saying that getting ready for sex when your in your 40's is alike a military operation,with all the waxing off, pushing up, and slimming down. It stuck me as a programme I would find incredibly depressing and not funny in the slightest.

Lynette in desperate housewives is probably the most real out of women charatcers as she comes closest to depict the misery of 'having it all', the children, the job, the amazing fashion,body and appearance. The others just sail through life with no having to work and looking great.

iguana

bluewolf wrote: »

But Austen had wonderful satire :eek: especially Northanger Abbey!
It can be a bit much when it's usually interpreted as chicklit though

As can DH at times. As can an awful lot of books that get categorised as 'chicklit.' Quite a lot of 'chicklit' books are full of wit and satire and often deal with real issues like widowhood, bereavement, serious illness, alcoholism, rape and sexual abuse.

I find it a bit much when the majority of books by women about young women have a pastel cover slapped on them and are defined as chicklit.

Smallbit

Most of those programs are truly awful. I do confess to Grays Anatomy as my guilty pleasure though, especially when Eric Dane is on...

minidazzler

TBH, I can't remember the last womens TV show I watched that passed the Bechdel test. It's quite annoying because it's not like there can't be good TV that is targetted towards women, it's just that there isn't!

iguana

minidazzler wrote: »

TBH, I can't remember the last womens TV show I watched that passed the Bechdel test. It's quite annoying because it's not like there can't be good TV that is targetted towards women, it's just that there isn't!

And what about shows like Big Love, Weeds, Buffy, Veronica Mars or True Blood? Or Small Island, Lorna Doone, The Lion in Winter remake, Little Dorrit, The Key or The Virgin Queen. There are lots and lots of television shows made for primarily female audiences which are fantastic.

pickarooney

Weeds is for women? News to me.

iguana

pickarooney wrote: »

Weeds is for women? News to me.

Only by the same argument that The Sopranos or The Wire are for men.

pickarooney

Ah, we're playing Wirey-Weedy... hang on, I don't understand the rules. I want out.

iguana

pickarooney wrote: »

Ah, we're playing Wirey-Weedy... hang on, I don't understand the rules. I want out.

:rolleyes::)

Ok, shows like SatC and DH are clearly aimed strongly at women but shows like The Wire and The Sopranos are not their male counterpart. Shows like Top Gear and Entourage are. I can see how The Wire and The Sopranos could be described as men's shows, strong male dominated casts with 'men's' issues at the heart of the show. But the same arguments then apply to Weeds, Big Love, etc to describe them as women's shows. Female leads and the heart of the show is often about 'women's' issues.

I'm not saying either shows are specifically aimed at either sex, but if you are going to compare masculine/feminine shows, like has to be compared with like.

pickarooney

But neither you nor I believe any of Weeds/Sopranos/Wire/True Blood/Veronica Mars are gender-specific, right?

donfers

you know what the most dangerous "tv aimed at women" is...it's the morning/lunchtime/afternoon shows like midday and loose women usually presented by women/aimed at women and with an audience of women. These are dangerous for a few reasons

1) they assume women don't work and are stuck at home watching tv during the daytime.

2) they talk down to women as if the stay-at-home women are only interested in petty trivial stuff like showbiz gossip, recipes and gardening tips.

3) most ironically of all they purport to be bastions of empowerment for women (woohoo-4 women presenters fawning over some c-list male actor) when in reality they are just another cog in the chain that insults both genders and maintains the divide

iguana

pickarooney wrote: »

But neither you nor I believe any of Weeds/Sopranos/Wire/True Blood/Veronica Mars are gender-specific, right?

No I think they are general programming. But afaik The Wire/Sopranos has a higher male audience while shows like Big Love and period dramas attract more women.

Personally my favourite genres by a very, very wide margin are sci-fi and fantasy. All my very favourite shows are in those genres and any other shows I love are qualified by the fact that they are not sci-fi/fantasy (though they often have some connection to sci-fi/fantasy for some reason). And while I don't see most of those shows as 'male' it is generally a genre with a bigger male audience and the networks know that. They compete for audience share in different sex and age groups and that certainly plays a part in the commissioning of certain programmes.

Kooli

donfers wrote: »

you know what the most dangerous "tv aimed at women" is...it's the morning/lunchtime/afternoon shows like midday and loose women usually presented by women/aimed at women and with an audience of women. These are dangerous for a few reasons

1) they assume women don't work and are stuck at home watching tv during the daytime.

2) they talk down to women as if the stay-at-home women are only interested in petty trivial stuff like showbiz gossip, recipes and gardening tips.

3) most ironically of all they purport to be bastions of empowerment for women (woohoo-4 women presenters fawning over some c-list male actor) when in reality they are just another cog in the chain that insults both genders and maintains the divide

God I hate those shows!

BUT

1) most people at home during the day are women. The shift may have changed recently, but I think women are still the majority. So it would make sense to gear daytime tv towards them

2) I don't think they only cover trivial stuff, but they probably do too much of it, and in such a cringey 'girly' way

3) I think I agree with you on that one.

Dudess

pickarooney wrote: »

Peep Show for example - I can't imagine a woman ever really getting just how funny that is.

:-/

I know I'm only one woman, but I find that condescending in the extreme. It's one of my fave shows.

Kooli

Dudess wrote: »

:-/

I know I'm only one woman, but I find that condescending in the extreme. It's one of my fave shows.

Mine too, I have the box set and have watched every episode! It's fupping brilliant.

I don't necessarily think it was condescending though to think women wouldn't find it funny. Well maybe the phrasing was condescending actually cos it implied that we just wouldn't 'get it'.

Howard the Duck

pickarooney wrote: »

Show for example - I can't imagine a woman ever really getting just how funny that is.

You just need to hang out with cooler women

I used to watch SATC when i was on. I thought it was pretty good. DH i think is way over the top and pretty stupid. I think it tries way too hard to be a show for everyone.

The truly great shows like Six Feet Under, True Blood, The Wire and Weeds are great because of the way they are written. They are smart and surprise you. They tend to have everything in them and lots of stuff both sexes can relate to. I think guys want romance in tv shows as much as women but the rubbish tv shows only show it from the woman's point of view.
And also i'm sure women want some action every now and then?

P.S. Cougar Town is complete pants to the max

pickarooney

Kooli wrote: »

Mine too, I have the box set and have watched every episode! It's fupping brilliant.

I don't necessarily think it was condescending though to think women wouldn't find it funny. Well maybe the phrasing was condescending actually cos it implied that we just wouldn't 'get it'.

I wasn't meant to be condescending. What I mean is, there are scenes like

Jeremy in a nightclub saying "She's got one ... she's got one ... she's DEFINITELY got one ... she's pretending she hasn't got one but I know she has"

where a woman would laugh at just how stupid the guy is but a man would laugh louder to cover the fact that he's turning bright red with embarrassment because he's done exactly the same thing.

Dolbert

pickarooney wrote:

Peep Show for example - I can't imagine a woman ever really getting just how funny that is.

Erm, another female Peep Show fan here (along with my equally female sister). It's a sharp, funny and gloriously neurotic show which I don't think requires a penis to appreciate I can fully relate to their stupid/ paranoid/ dastardly thoughts 'cos actually that's pretty much exactly how I think too. I remember that one of the extras on the box set was some of the scenes from Sophie's perspective and it was so disappointing, with her internal dialogue very self consciously 'female', and as a result coming across very forced. They should have written her thought processes just the same as any other character, our thoughts are just as weird and fcuked up as the fellas (or maybe that's just me) :pac:

I wasn't meant to be condescending. What I mean is, there are scenes like Spoiler: Jeremy in a nightclub saying "She's got one ... she's got one ... she's DEFINITELY got one ... she's pretending she hasn't got one but I know she has" where a woman would laugh at just how stupid the guy is but a man would laugh louder to cover the fact that he's turning bright red with embarrassment because he's done exactly the same thing.

Many, many women would also be thinking it tbh. Some of us are just better at hiding it than others

seenitall

My two favourites are non-gender specific (I think?): House, and Brothers and Sisters.

(But I do fancy Hugh Laurie - just in the process of watching House and Jeeves and Wooster back to back often on a night in).