dilemma...help me

mailburner

I drive a 04 mondeo (74000) and this has failed the nct a few weeks back
i got a lambda and a cat fitted and it failed the retest and at the
bottom of the page is says excessive smoke.
The lad at the nct said theres something seriously wrong with the engine
the lads who fitted the sensor and cat said there was something wrong with
the engine and when i brought it back to my mechanic he said the engine
was gone in it.
what should i do..
should i fork out a grand after all ive spent to fix the engine (mechanic
was saying to take of the engine, deglaze the boor, take off the pistons
and it will be fine and less costly than paying 2k + vat for a new engine)
know damn all bout cars so all the above means nothing..

should i get rid of it to fook and trade it in?

i tried traynors for a second hand engine but they dont have any

its has me robbed and i cant take much more

thanks

Mr Benevolent

I take it it's a diesel?

mailburner

Confab wrote: »

I take it it's a diesel?

petrol

Barr

mailburner wrote: »

I drive a 04 mondeo (74000) and this has failed the nct a few weeks back
i got a lambda and a cat fitted and it failed the retest and at the
bottom of the page is says excessive smoke.
The lad at the nct said theres something seriously wrong with the engine
the lads who fitted the sensor and cat said there was something wrong with
the engine and when i brought it back to my mechanic he said the engine
was gone in it.
what should i do..
should i fork out a grand after all ive spent to fix the engine (mechanic
was saying to take of the engine, deglaze the boor, take off the pistons
and it will be fine and less costly than paying 2k + vat for a new engine)
know damn all bout cars so all the above means nothing..

should i get rid of it to fook and trade it in?

i tried traynors for a second hand engine but they dont have any

its has me robbed and i cant take much more

thanks

Did your mechanic say what exatly is wrong with the engine ?

langdang

Excessive smoke sounds like a fail for a diesel!
I thought petrol failed on CO or Hydrocarbons?

I'd look for an informed opinion before drastic/costly engine surgery - has anybody actually said X is wrong with it? So far you seem to have dealt with people who got "a bad vibe, man" from the car?

EDIT: my car smokes every morning - valve stem seals are fudged, stops after 30 secs tho. It's 12years old, with 130k on it. I took the hubcaps off and reddened it up the motorway for 30 mins to get to the NCT centre - result? two years NCT, not a bother. NOTHING else done for NCT apart from basic maintenance.

Unless that mondeo is visibly smoking all the time, or making awful clanking noises there must be life in it yet. A decent mechanic should be able to diagnose it.
Are you sure it's 74k.......

Tefral

What kind of smoke is it? Blue/white or Black?

Have to say this is very odd on a car with that mileage.

kasper

i wonder did the engine ever overheat ? i would be getting someone than is familiar with fords to do a health check on it

mailburner

Barr wrote: »

Did your mechanic say what exatly is wrong with the engine ?

not really
other than the engine being fooked

mailburner

langdang wrote: »

Excessive smoke sounds like a fail for a diesel!
I thought petrol failed on CO or Hydrocarbons?

I'd look for an informed opinion before drastic/costly engine surgery - has anybody actually said X is wrong with it? So far you seem to have dealt with people who got "a bad vibe, man" from the car?

EDIT: my car smokes every morning - valve stem seals are fudged, stops after 30 secs tho. It's 12years old, with 130k on it. I took the hubcaps off and reddened it up the motorway for 30 mins to get to the NCT centre - result? two years NCT, not a bother. NOTHING else done for NCT apart from basic maintenance.

Unless that mondeo is visibly smoking all the time, or making awful clanking noises there must be life in it yet. A decent mechanic should be able to diagnose it.
Are you sure it's 74k.......

im as sure as i can be but i dont know who had it before me

its not smoking bad as far as i can see though it did when it was
being tested
i havent noticed any difference driving it

the emissions were very high the first time i got it tested but after getting
a cat put in which may not have been compatible it was actually
worse for the retest...so much so that the tester said he couldnt
finish the test with the smoke and excessive smoke was even written
on the nct sheet unlike the first time.

think i may bring it into the ford garage in galway before i invest anymore
surely if anyone can pinpoint the exact problem its them

mailburner

cronin_j wrote: »

What kind of smoke is it? Blue/white or Black?

Have to say this is very odd on a car with that mileage.

black smoke

very odd to say the least considering the mileage
i never imagined anything like this happening

mailburner

kasper wrote: »

i wonder did the engine ever overheat ? i would be getting someone than is familiar with fords to do a health check on it

not that im aware off but im not very knowledgeable on cars

off to motorpark i think

langdang

mailburner wrote: »

im as sure as i can be but i dont know who had it before me

its not smoking bad as far as i can see though it did when it was
being tested
i havent noticed any difference driving it

the emissions were very high the first time i got it tested but after getting
a cat put in which may not have been compatible it was actually
worse for the retest...so much so that the tester said he couldnt
finish the test with the smoke and excessive smoke was even written
on the nct sheet unlike the first time.

think i may bring it into the ford garage in galway before i invest anymore
surely if anyone can pinpoint the exact problem its them

Eek! Dunno boy, I never invest much in a car, if something like that reared it's head I'd be onto the next so-called-banger. I would suss out who is the best independent diagnostics/emissions/ford specialist locally rather than taking it to a dealer - they will only want to (or be able to) put in NEW parts, when what you want is an accurate diagnosis and the cheapest fix.
Black smoke on a non-turbo non-diesel sounds odd! I thought the mondeo petrol engines from 04 on had solved the earlier swirl flap issue, and had been designed with Mazda input so I thought they were pretty much solid once they got regular decent oil changes!

Unless that engine is significantly more than 70k and has been treated badly in terms of oil changes, it sounds very odd!

mailburner

langdang wrote: »

Eek! Dunno boy, I never invest much in a car, if something like that reared it's head I'd be onto the next so-called-banger. I would suss out who is the best independent diagnostics/emissions/ford specialist locally rather than taking it to a dealer - they will only want to (or be able to) put in NEW parts, when what you want is an accurate diagnosis and the cheapest fix.
Black smoke on a non-turbo non-diesel sounds odd! I thought the mondeo petrol engines from 04 on had solved the earlier swirl flap issue, and had been designed with Mazda input so I thought they were pretty much solid once they got regular decent oil changes!

Unless that engine is significantly more than 70k and has been treated badly in terms of oil changes, it sounds very odd!

i wish i knew more to be honest.

i have it 3 years and in that time ive put up a little over 30k myself.
Its been well looked after during that time.

got it serviced in may and everything appeared to be perfect

one mechanic did ask me was their a chance the car was clocked
as he said it hardly ever happened to a car with such low mileage?

id be willing to put a few hundred into it if i thought it would be sorted
but id need to be certain.
As it stands im half thinking of looking to trade it in

its my 2nd ford and roughly about ten years ago much the same
thing happened with a fiesta i had but in fairness that was a piece
of junk in comparison.
The almera i had in between never let me down and passed its
nct only a couple of weeks ago (brother in law has it..12 years old)

langdang

[QUOTE=mailburner;66949520one mechanic did ask me was their a chance the car was clocked
as he said it hardly ever happened to a car with such low mileage?....


The almera i had in between never let me down and passed its
nct only a couple of weeks ago (brother in law has it..12 years old)[/QUOTE]
well at least one mechanic has suggested it, cronin_j has indirectly suggested it, I beginning to think myself that it might be clocked (or really neglected in terms of oil changes along the way) - is it an irish car or UK import?
A well recommended local independent garage may be able to suggest a cheap fix, or maybe it's just so bad you should look for the most economical way to get rid of it... black smoke from a normal petrol engine without some ecu or emissions dashboard light sounds very wrong!

mailburner

langdang wrote: »

well at least one mechanic has suggested it, cronin_j has indirectly suggested it, I beginning to think myself that it might be clocked (or really neglected in terms of oil changes along the way) - is it an irish car or UK import?
A well recommended local independent garage may be able to suggest a cheap fix, or maybe it's just so bad you should look for the most economical way to get rid of it... black smoke from a normal petrol engine without some ecu or emissions dashboard light sounds very wrong!

its an irish car

get it serviced once a year

it has used very little oil tho maybe thats not the case now

as it stands, the car is in my local garage and he sees whats in the
original post as my only way out unless i want to pay 2k+vat for
a new engine.
he has his own place and fixes cars but doesnt sell them and hes
been at it a hell of a long time so id be amazed if he didnt
know what hes talking about but saying that im always going
to be open about getting another opinion before i consider
spending big again
Its only in the last couple of weeks that the engine malfunction light
has been on also.

the most economical way to get rid of it is what im leaning towards.

i figure i wont even get 4k for it selling it privately so even if ford
or somebody offer 3k or less for a trade it then i guess id be better off
rather than pumping in up to 1k more

langdang

2

mailburner wrote: »

Its only in the last couple of weeks that the engine malfunction light has been on also

So, based on whatever codes were readback from the system, were you given any better explanation of what could be wrong, or did you just get "your engine is fudged"

It does sound like it's fudged but maybe one of the experts on here has seen this before and maybe it's not a huge deal????
It would be just interesting to find out if it's just worn out (170k rather than 70k miles) or something else.

mailburner

langdang wrote: »

2So, based on whatever codes were readback from the system, were you given any better explanation of what could be wrong, or did you just get "your engine is fudged"

It does sound like it's fudged but maybe one of the experts on here has seen this before and maybe it's not a huge deal????
It would be just interesting to find out if it's just worn out (170k rather than 70k miles) or something else.

thats exactly what my mechanic said

i dont even want to think about 170k though

ill do nothing for the next 24hours and maybe somebody
here will help me make my next move

thanks

itarumaa

black smoke in petrol cars means that it is running rich = gets too much petrol,

so now the guestion is why it is running rich, there might be many reasons.

How do the spark plugs look like, if they look black then one more thing to support the theory,

do you have obd2 tool, you could read the error codes from the system, should be quite easy. Those error coded should inform you if MAF is working correctly, one option for this problem.

How is the oxygen sensor, if you would have a basic digital voltmeter you could check using that tool, does it work or not. If your oxygen sensor does not work,then ecu does not get the needed info about air/fuel ratio and will give the engine really rich mix= black smoke.

And based on the info given, there is nothing pointing out that engine itself would be beyond repair.

langdang

Itaruuma - I'm guessing it would be absolutely gulping petrol to run that rich? I had a very thirsty fiat that was running rich, but never so bad that it smoked!

itarumaa

langdang wrote: »

Itaruuma - I'm guessing it would be absolutely gulping petrol to run that rich? I had a very thirsty fiat that was running rich, but never so bad that it smoked!

Yes it should show up somehow, altough my old Peugeot 205 was similar, running rich = black smoke but it did not show too much in mpg. Of course, without seeing the op´s car, it is hard to know how much black smoke it actually gives.

CarMuppet

OP was there a compression test done on each cylinder? ie this is a test to see if the cylinders are 'leaking' when pressuresed with air.


Black smoke = rich ie too much of that expensive juice being consumed per cycle... I had seen this on a turbo 323 GTX in the past due to an incorrect MAF being fitted to the car. Disconnect the MAF (or whatever air meter is in there) and see if the black smoke dissapears. Keep in mind you said you've fitted a new cat so you need to fix this asap before this new cat gets damaged.

Other causes may include fuel pressure problem or a sticky injectors. Of course the ECU might be shot too.

This is just a guess, but with BLACK smoke (not BLUE smoke) you're engine is mechanically fine. The problem is fuel / electrical sensor / ECU related.


EDIT: Did this smoke first appear just after a service or a trip to your mechanic?


Best of luck,
CarMuppet

mailburner

itarumaa wrote: »

black smoke in petrol cars means that it is running rich = gets too much petrol,

so now the guestion is why it is running rich, there might be many reasons.

How do the spark plugs look like, if they look black then one more thing to support the theory,

do you have obd2 tool, you could read the error codes from the system, should be quite easy. Those error coded should inform you if MAF is working correctly, one option for this problem.

How is the oxygen sensor, if you would have a basic digital voltmeter you could check using that tool, does it work or not. If your oxygen sensor does not work,then ecu does not get the needed info about air/fuel ratio and will give the engine really rich mix= black smoke.

And based on the info given, there is nothing pointing out that engine itself would be beyond repair.

not sure what the plugs look like but i got it serviced in may but thats
probably immaterial

obd2 means absolutely nothing to me im afraid...ill do some googling
later to see if i can make some sense of it.
i dont have a voltmeter either

ill ask the mechanic about the oxygen sensor tomorrow

mailburner

CarMuppet wrote: »

OP was there a compression test done on each cylinder? ie this is a test to see if the cylinders are 'leaking' when pressuresed with air.


Black smoke = rich ie too much of that expensive juice being consumed per cycle... I had seen this on a turbo 323 GTX in the past due to an incorrect MAF being fitted to the car. Disconnect the MAF (or whatever air meter is in there) and see if the black smoke dissapears. Keep in mind you said you've fitted a new cat so you need to fix this asap before this new cat gets damaged.

Other causes may include fuel pressure problem or a sticky injectors. Of course the ECU might be shot too.

This is just a guess, but with BLACK smoke (not BLUE smoke) you're engine is mechanically fine. The problem is fuel / electrical sensor / ECU related.


EDIT: Did this smoke first appear just after a service or a trip to your mechanic?


Best of luck,
CarMuppet

thanks

the smoke first started appearing after the nct and as far as i could see
more or less after i got the first cat put in (a cheap cat at 180euro)
and the first sensor (even the lad who put it in realised the sensor
was wrong for it after) it was after that it went for a retest and failed
miserably with excessive smoke typed on the nct result.
whether or not things got worse after the cat/sensor was put in
i dont know but thats the way it looked from my side

i dont think there was a compression test done on each cyclinder
unless the mechanic did this last time i heard from him

mailburner

if anyone can recommend a place that might be able to actually
know for certain where the problem lies then please send me some
info...preferably around the galway area but in fairness id travel
a lot further if i knew the right guys were looking at it and not
raping me in the meantime.
maybe the motorpark galway might be my best option

EPM

mailburner wrote: »

maybe the motorpark galway might be my best option

Go to an independent. Dealer will charge a lot more for the work. Cant give any recommendations but a well established indy would be the best option

mailburner

having just spoken to the mech he says the rings are stuck in the piston
and to fix this hes talking about 600 euro.
i might just have to bite the bullet and fork out i think.

should i just pay up and do you guys think this will sort
out my emission problem?
thanks

itarumaa

mailburner wrote: »

having just spoken to the mech he says the rings are stuck in the piston
and to fix this hes talking about 600 euro.
i might just have to bite the bullet and fork out i think.

If the rings are stuck in the piston, it should mean that oil gets past of the piston and burns trough the engine and that should give blue, not black smoke.

Get another option, would be my advice.

mailburner

the readings from my 1st nct

engine/oil temp 94degrees
co 1.31vol%
hc 483ppm
lambda 0.79
co 6.77
hc 1025ppm

from the retest

eng/oil temp 107degrees
lambda .80
co 7.46
hc 1157

mailburner

itarumaa wrote: »

If the rings are stuck in the piston, it should mean that oil gets past of the piston and burns trough the engine and that should give blue, not black smoke.

Get another option, would be my advice.

hard to tell from outside but it does look like blue smoke
and it doesnt appear to be awful bad.
it has used a lot of oil in the past couple of weeks though

itarumaa

mailburner wrote: »

hard to tell from outside but it does look like blue smoke
and it doesnt appear to be awful bad.
it has used a lot of oil in the past couple of weeks though

Then the piston rings might be a good bet, if it looks blue after all and specially if it uses lot of oil. BTW those NCT emissions values are really bad, are those values at idle speed or at 3000rpm?

mailburner

itarumaa wrote: »

Then the piston rings might be a good bet, if it looks blue after all and specially if it uses lot of oil. BTW those NCT emissions values are really bad, are those values at idle speed or at 3000rpm?

co 1.31vol%
hc 483ppm Low idle 700rpm

lambda 0.79 High idle 2950rpm
co 6.77
hc 1025ppm

from the retest


Low idel 802rpm
co 7.46
hc 1157

high idle 802rpm
lambda .80
co 7.46
hc 1157

langdang

mailburner wrote: »

co 1.31vol%
hc 483ppm Low idle 700rpm

lambda 0.79 High idle 2950rpm
co 6.77
hc 1025ppm

from the retest


Low idel 802rpm
co 7.46
hc 1157

high idle 802rpm
lambda .80
co 7.46
hc 1157

They are some levels of HydroCarbons (25- 50 times my 12yr old, 130k miles 2L petrol) The lambda is still way off on the retest, looks like the guys that did the cat and the lambda never measured the emissions afterwards to see if they had actually addressed the real problem or not. (I suppose that depends on if you came to them with the NCT slip and said I have an emissions problem can you figure it out, or if you just told them replace the lambda and cat....)

mailburner

langdang wrote: »

They are some levels of HydroCarbons (25- 50 times my 12yr old, 130k miles 2L petrol) The lambda is still way off on the retest, looks like the guys that did the cat and the lambda never measured the emissions afterwards to see if they had actually addressed the real problem or not. (I suppose that depends on if you came to them with the NCT slip and said I have an emissions problem can you figure it out, or if you just told them replace the lambda and cat....)

i gave them the nct sheet and told them the cat was gone
they told me i needed a lambda
they put in three cats and two lamdbas altogether
and each time they fitted one or the other they told
me to bring it off for 40/50miles and then they would
test the emissions when i came back each time.
they cost me a fortune overall