Superstar of the Week - Week 13 - Kurt Angle

JP Liz V1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrAIIu5btSg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ivy6sNQSqs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtj1cuwQ-yk

He is one of the best technical wrestlers ever to step inside the ring and its true its true (Sorry I couldnt resist )

The Olympic gold medal winner is 41 now and currently is in TNA still putting on top class matches (his match and feud with Mr. Anderson one of the best of this year)

His feud and matches with HBK have to be one of the best ever in WWE history

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Y6hcXp9Rk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D_YyzdLjGI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxPUXRxDXe4

The Volt

Amazing wrestler, one of the greats. Just wish he'd bloody retire before he puts himself into an early grave

Gave us some great moments over the years though. Loved the ironman match with Lesnar on Smackdown in 2005 I think it was.

paddyismaddy

Voltwad wrote: »

Amazing wrestler, one of the greats. Just wish he'd bloody retire before he puts himself into an early grave

Gave us some great moments over the years though. Loved the ironman match with Lesnar on Smackdown in 2005 I think it was.

i know what you mean volt but he still puts on one hell of a match

i loved his matches with {dare i say his name} benoit and eddie

flahavaj

The most overrated wrestler in the history of pro-wrestling.

He has the art of the fast past spot down to a tee, granted, but unless he's in there with the likes of Undertaker or Benoit you'll never in a month of Sundy's get him to pace a match properly, space out his spots so that they're meaningful or actually make someone believe any of his finishers aren't totally worthless.

paddyismaddy

flahavaj wrote: »

The most overrated wrestler in the history of pro-wrestling.

He has the art of the fast past spot down to a tee, granted, but unless he's in there with the likes of Undertaker or Benoit you'll never in a month of Sundy's get him to pace a match properly, space out his spots so that they're meaningful or actually make someone believe any of his finishers aren't totally worthless.

i'm sorry flah but how can anyone call angle overrated

he won a gold medal with a broken frecking neck

campo

You know what imho he is as good now as he was 10 years ago he cant still put on a top class performance and knows how to put a guy over plus his promo's are getting better and better if it was not for him and Mr. Anderson I probably would not bother watching TNA

DM_7

flahavaj wrote: »

The most overrated wrestler in the history of pro-wrestling.

He has the art of the fast past spot down to a tee, granted, but unless he's in there with the likes of Undertaker or Benoit you'll never in a month of Sundy's get him to pace a match properly, space out his spots so that they're meaningful or actually make someone believe any of his finishers aren't totally worthless.

You tell them Flah!

JP Liz V1

Sexy Kurt LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymF71I5zzp0

Vince135792003

The best wrestler I have ever seen live.

Mr.Nice Guy

Probably the best wrestler in the world today imo and would be in my top 10 list of all-time favourites. Has everything - technical ability, charisma, intensity, mic skills.

starviewadams

Outstanding wrestler and good on the mic too,loved his early days in the WWF the best, when he was playing the nerdy,milk drinking character,teaming with Edge & Christian and when he was feuding with The Rock,Triple H,Austin and Benoit in their prime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlrbL3pAq6E

Sirsok

He is my favourite wrestler of all time.....lookin much healthier now to....debateable why that is.....will kill me when he retires.....best ive ever seen live to.....great match with aj at the first impact show!

D2D

1 word sums Angle up - Amazing

Tribesmen7

flahavaj wrote: »

The most overrated wrestler in the history of pro-wrestling.

He has the art of the fast past spot down to a tee, granted, but unless he's in there with the likes of Undertaker or Benoit you'll never in a month of Sundy's get him to pace a match properly, space out his spots so that they're meaningful or actually make someone believe any of his finishers aren't totally worthless.

In fairness while I do think he is a world class wrestler I see where your coming from. But then the likes of MCMG and Gen Me dont pace matches properly at all but everyone still thinks they are great wrestlers.

flahavaj

Tribesmen7 wrote: »

In fairness while I do think he is a world class wrestler I see where your coming from. But then the likes of MCMG and Gen Me dont pace matches properly at all but everyone still thinks they are great wrestlers.

The likes of MCMG and Gen Me are what they are, they're brilliant spot wrestlers. But no one showers them with ridiculous praise like calling them "one of the all time greats" or even more laughably a "great mat wrestler" like you so often hear. I like Kurt for what he is - a guy who's great at wrestling a high spot filled sprint - but he is vastly vastly overrated.

chopperbyrne

flahavaj wrote: »

The most overrated wrestler in the history of pro-wrestling.

He has the art of the fast past spot down to a tee, granted, but unless he's in there with the likes of Undertaker or Benoit you'll never in a month of Sundy's get him to pace a match properly, space out his spots so that they're meaningful or actually make someone believe any of his finishers aren't totally worthless.

I agree with this.

He could be the most dastardly heel in a company, but he'll still do all the big babyface spots in every match. He seems to think the more you cram into a match the better it will be.

In over a decade he has not learnt to decently pace a match or psychology. Even Mark Henry has learnt how to do that.

Dougalicious

chopperbyrne wrote: »

I agree with this.

He could be the most dastardly heel in a company, but he'll still do all the big babyface spots in every match. He seems to think the more you cram into a match the better it will be.

In over a decade he has not learnt to decently pace a match or psychology. Even Mark Henry has learnt how to do that.

The two of ye should go back to watchin 80's wrestling!! Are ye both 40+?

paddyismaddy

chopperbyrne wrote: »

I agree with this.

He could be the most dastardly heel in a company, but he'll still do all the big babyface spots in every match. He seems to think the more you cram into a match the better it will be.

In over a decade he has not learnt to decently pace a match or psychology. Even Mark Henry has learnt how to do that.

give me any kurt angle match over a mark henry's match anyday

he does some many spots cause he wants to produce the best match possible

flahavaj

paddyismaddy wrote: »

give me any kurt angle match over a mark henry's match anyday

But no one's claiming Mark Henry is one of the all time greats like this forum and other internet fora do about Kurt, ad neuseum. If he's as good as most people would have you believe then surely its not unfair to hold him to higher standards than you would most other wrestlers, like Henry for example?

he does some many spots cause he wants to produce the best match possible

You don't have to cram in as many spots as possible to have the best match possible though. This sums up my exact problem with Angle.

flahavaj

Dougalicious wrote: »

The two of ye should go back to watchin 80's wrestling!! Are ye both 40+?

I'm a fan of all types of wrestling and I love fast paced spot fests as much as a good 80's broadway. But I expect someone thats commionly referred to as one of the best in the world to be capable of adapting his style to fit his role and match he's wrestling, not stick to the one style no matter what.

Not sure how that would make me seem like a 40 year old though tbh.

Podge2k7

Angle is in my top 3 favourites of all time. He is probably the best technical wrestler in the world today, and is brilliant on the mic, has great charisma etc. He basically has the whole package.

gimmick

flahavaj wrote: »

Not sure how that would make me seem like a 40 year old though tbh.

There are plenty other things though

he does some many spots cause he wants to produce the best match possible

Its that mentality which makes so many indie matches so bad. A spot for the sake of a spot makes no sense. Every spot should make some sense to the match it happens in.

The two of ye should go back to watchin 80's wrestling!! Are ye both 40+?

There were plenty in the 80s who were capable of havng complete clusters as well. Your post makes no sense whatsoever.

Mr.Nice Guy

chopperbyrne wrote: »

In over a decade he has not learnt to decently pace a match or psychology. Even Mark Henry has learnt how to do that.

I was wondering when this word would pop up. This is a probably a topic worthy of its own thread but one of my biggest gripes about wrestling fans is this notion of psychology. It crops up so often, especially when people wish to diss Kurt Angle.

If you criticise Angle for lack of psychology then you have to do so for Shawn Michaels too. Michaels got a lot of stick for lack of psychology when he was with The Rockers, and later in his singles career.

Here is what Shawn Michaels had to say about psychology in his book Heartbreak and Triumph when he referenced a conversation he had with Tully Blanchard. It was when he was with The Rockers:

'After we had wrestled only a few matches, I came to him and said, "I'm learning so much from you guys, and my psychology is getting better."

"Shawn," he replied, "let me tell you something about psychology. Psychology is about who can make them yell the loudest the longest. That's all it is. From the time you walk out till the time you leave, it's about making them yell the loudest for the longest."

It sounds too simple, but that's the basic philosophy I took into my singles career. I was going to try and make the fans yell the loudest for the longest every time I stepped into the ring. It's still my goal every time I go out into the arena.'

Two bona fide legends airing their thoughts on psychology and based on their definition of it, which I'd agree with 100%, Kurt Angle does not fall into the category of overrated. In fact, he fits the mould perfectly of one of the all-time greats.

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I was wondering when this word would pop up. This is a probably a topic worthy of its own thread but one of my biggest gripes about wrestling fans is this notion of psychology. It crops up so often, especially when people wish to diss Kurt Angle.

If you criticise Angle for lack of psychology then you have to do so for Shawn Michaels too. Michaels got a lot of stick for lack of psychology when he was with The Rockers, and later in his singles career.

Here is what Shawn Michaels had to say about psychology in his book Heartbreak and Triumph when he referenced a conversation he had with Tully Blanchard. It was when he was with The Rockers:

Two bona fide legends airing their thoughts on psychology and based on their definition of it, which I'd agree with 100%, Kurt Angle does not fall into the category of overrated. In fact, he fits the mould perfectly of one of the all-time greats.

Regardless of your defintion of psychology (and I avoided the word as no one can agree on the actual definition of the bloody thing, never mind use it sa stick to beat someone with), Michaels understands better than anyone the need to pace a match, the need to time the big spots in a match so that they have greatest impact, he understands the need to adapt his style according to whom is opponent is etc etc. There are more ways to make the fans "scream the loudest and longest" than wrestling Kurt's style, thats my point. The truly great wrestlers IMO are the ones who didn't have to rely on half killing themselves every night to have the crowd eating out of their hands and have shown that they can be flexible to adapt their style to different occasions.

I honestly think that in all his years in the busines Kurt has never learned the things I listed above. He has one style - thats balls out, 100 miles per hour, which he will wrestle whether he's face or heel, whether his opponent is a cruiser weight or the 500 pound Big Show. I'm not saying thats necessarily a bad thing on its own (in fact it can be great fun to watch), but I expect far far more from someone being called the "greatest of all time" to be perfectly honest.

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote: »

Regardless of your defintion of psychology (and I avoided the word as no one can agree on the actual definition of the bloody thing, never mind use it sa stick to beat someone with), Michaels understands better than anyone the need to pace a match, the need to time the big spots in a match so that they have greatest impact, he understands the need to adapt his style according to whom is opponent is etc etc.

I honestly think that in all his years in the busines Kurt has never learned these things. He has one style - thats balls out, 100 miles per hour, which he will wrestle whether he's face or heel, whether his opponent is a cruiser weight or the 500 pound Big Show. I'm not saying thats necessarily a bad thing on its own (in fact it can be great fun to watch), but I expect far far more from someone being called the "greatest of all time" to be perfectly honest.

See I'm not sure Shawn Michaels does know. Wasn't this one of Bret Hart's biggest criticisms of him? His 'skinning the cat', the flip in the turnbuckle etc. Moves he felt that made no sense to what ws happening in the match.

I personally never got the impression watching an Angle match that he did not know how to pace a match. Angle's encounters with Lesnar at Wrestlemania and Summerslam of '03 for example were not all 100 m/p/h but started off on the mat and then built towards the finish. It's fair to say Angle was the one in control there both times, and I enjoyed both matches, one of which was when Angle was about 60% healthy at best.

I'm also not aware of any wrestlers in the industry making these criticisms. I have only heard praise from the likes of Flair, Bret, Michaels etc for him. Has anyone criticised his ability in the business itself?

chordtype

He's always been one of my favourite wrestlers to watch and the rate at which he developed at the start of his career was nothing short of amazing. However I do think that his best days are behind him and he should consider calling it a day soon (fat chance though) Yes he can still have amazing matches but jesus I don't want to see anybody die in the ring and because of the way he is and the way he performs he's a serious candidate. He was lucky he wasn't seriously injured in 2003 during his match with Brock and that moonsault of the top of the cage a few months ago was a bit stupid.


I do agree that his pacing could be better and he is one of these guys who needs to get all his **** in but his matches are nearly always entertaining to me.

Vince135792003

Everyone has an opinion about what psychology is but the quotes from Blanchard and Michaels that Mr. Nice Guy posted sums it up for me and on that basis Angle stands amongst the best.

In any event, wrestling like any entertainment is all about opinions and there's not one wrestler on the planet who is universially liked or hasn't been criticised on the internet.

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm also not aware of any wrestlers in the industry making these criticisms. I have only heard praise from the likes of Flair, Bret, Michaels etc for him. Has anyone criticised his ability in the business itself?

Not that I've ever heard. But I've never heard anyone in the business say Big Show is a bit sh*te either or that HHH ian'rt half the wrestler he was before the quad injury. Doesn't mean I'm not perfectly capable of forming my own opinionsof those fellas. I'd certainly be wary of basing my opinion on anything I've read in a WWE produced biography tbh.;)

But then again this is just my humble opinion - bear in mind as well wrestlers are as capable of anyone of having opinions that I would disagree with strongly - see Bret's opinion of Flair for one not to mention a lot of the stuff that gets said in shoot interviews.

Vince135792003

flahavaj wrote: »

Not that I've ever heard. But I've never heard anyone in the business say Big Show is a bit sh*te either

Undertaker on Off the Record about 9 years ago said he was the biggest disappointment in the WWF. So wrestlers can be critical but it is occassional.

Angle is a wrestler I've heard praised as much as anybody by his fellow wrestlers in books and in interviews.

flahavaj

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Undertaker on Off the Record about 9 years ago said he was the biggest disappointment in the WWF. So wrestlers can be critical but it is occassional.

Angle is a wrestler I've heard praised as much as anybody by his fellow wrestlers in books and in interviews.

Fair enough. It was just a random example I pulled out of my head to make the point that you don't need the opinion of wrestlers to back up any and every point about a particular wrestler.

Look at the winners of the PFA Player of the Year Awards every year to see that you can't always rely on the opinions of the professionals to be reliable.:pac:

Vince135792003

flahavaj wrote: »

Fair enough. It was just a random example I pulled out of my head to make the point that you don't need the opinion of wrestlers to back up any and every point about a particular wrestler.

No but it can have some value when evaluating a guy while not dismissing anyones personal opinion.

Generally the people you work with in any job know your value better than anyone and know how good or bad you are. That doesn't make their opinions gospel in all cases but it is worth bringing into the conversation.

Granted too, wrestling is a public business with politics involved so opinions can't always be trusted. In Kurts case though he's received alot public praise from some of the very best and that has to be worth something.

gimmick

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Generally the people you work with in any job know your value better than anyone and know how good or bad you are. That doesn't make their opinions gospel in all cases but it is worth bringing into the conversation.

By the same token, in any work place, if someone says your workmate is terrible at his job, you will almost always defend him.

Vince135792003

gimmick wrote: »

By the same token, in any work place, if someone says your workmate is terrible at his job, you will almost always defend him.

Your work place sounds more pleasant than mine.

gimmick

Perhaps look at it in football terms again. Do you believe for one second that Wayne Rooney was delighted that Heskey was playing along side him at the world cup? But he said he thinks he was great. People generally defend their own.

SlickRic

there is a reason that two of Angle's greatest rivalries, with his greatest matches, were with Benoit and Michaels.

pacing, storytelling, and spots used in the right places.

i love Kurt. he's an unbelievable athlete, tons of charisma, can talk and can wrestle. his matches are amongst the most fun you can watch. all this IMO makes him a bona-fide legend, and all-time great.

but he'll always be below the likes of Michaels, Flair and maybe even a pre-2001 HHH, because of his inability (or refusal, i don't know) to pace and adapt.

Vince135792003

gimmick wrote: »

Perhaps look at it in football terms again. Do you believe for one second that Wayne Rooney was delighted that Heskey was playing along side him at the world cup? But he said he thinks he was great. People generally defend their own.

Of course. I mentioned that in my original post that wrestlers opinions come with a health warning. But Angle has received praise from wrestlers young and old and that has to be worth something and taken into account whiole not discrediting any ones personal opinion.

Vince135792003

SlickRic wrote: »

but he'll always be below the likes of Michaels, Flair and maybe even a pre-2001 HHH, because of his inability (or refusal, i don't know) to pace and adapt.

If you believe a vocal minority on the internet they will tell you that Flair matches were all the same with little psychology.

Another group will tell you that Triple H paces his matches too slow while I've heard other people on the net saying that Michaels wrestling style looked weak.

According to some on the net, Bret Hart was boring because he used the same moves.

Some on the internet will tell you that Mick Foley was just a big bump taker and nothing more.


There might even be a grain of truth in all of those criticisms but it's almost a pre-requisite to being great that people nitpick your style.

Every great wrestler gets criticised about something. The perfect wrestler that everyone universially loves doesn't exist.