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Paying politicians - why?

  • 13-07-2010 07:47AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭


    I was watching The Frontline last night and was wondering why are we paying hugly inflated saleries to inept TD's and remember they are the people who got us into this mess. It was horrible to see highly educated people out of work for such long periods of time. I did hear some ask that question, when are we as a nation going to stop beleiving the spin we are being sold happened for years, the church, Charlie Haughy, Bertie, NAMA. And the dogs on the street new the price NAMA paid for the loans were overpriced.


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    The title seems to suggest they should not be paid.
    Then it's that inept politicians should not be paid, are there any that should be paid in your opinion?
    Then it is about spin


    What exactly is your question?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Yeah why are they being paid. They don't live in the real world. In my town there is shop closing down after shop.

    There are too many politicians, and they are being paid more than in the UK where the popilation is 20x more.

    trade unions re too strong, tea breaks galore in the public service, politicians taking break they think they deserves the same entitlements they were getting when they were teachers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Sorry to answere your question the title is self explanatory why are they being paid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    The old argument is that we need to pay politicans, other high ranking public servants (including the likes of those on all the quangoes, semi states, regulatory authorities, etc) and indeed high ranking bankers high salaries to guarantee we get quality people.
    I kid you not. :rolleyes:

    Except we don't get really any of the above.
    We get a bunch of self important arrogant unresponsible inept unethical dipsticks who feel they are worth every penny and then some extra expenses and perks.

    They decided their own salaries and we as an electorate let them by voting them in at the very next election.

    Benchmarking in the public service was for everyone, including the ones at the top.
    The fact that our taoiseach decided to benchmark himself against perhaps Michael O'Leary, Denis O'Brien, Dermot Desmond, Mugabe is neither here nor there.

    Also supposedly the high salaries were to avoid fraudsters and corruption.
    Well wipee, wasn't that a success. :rolleyes:
    Most people would claim that ivor callely and a few more of his colleagues were guilty of fraudulent expense claims.

    I would not mind paying decent salaries if they did a good job, gave a sh** about the country and most importantly were responsible enough to admit they were wrong and resign forthwith.
    Sadly our government and certain high ranking public servants have done entirely the opposite.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    jmayo wrote: »
    The old argument is that we need to pay politicans, other high ranking public servants (including the likes of those on all the quangoes, semi states, regulatory authorities, etc) and indeed high ranking bankers high salaries to guarantee we get quality people.
    I kid you not. :rolleyes:

    Except we don't get really any of the above.
    We get a bunch of self important arrogant unresponsible inept unethical dipsticks who feel they are worth every penny and then some extra expenses and perks.
    I think an audience member on Frontline put it very well last night when he said that the most experienced businessman in our cabinet ran a bikeshop, and the rest aren't qualified to run a sweetshop. When we keep voting people into power because his father was a "grand fella" who got the community hall or new road into town built when he was a TD, then this is the type of politician we will get. We need people with real business experience in cabinet and in the Dail, not Teachers and family of ex TD's. That is where our big problem lies.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭hiorta


    jmayo wrote: »
    The old argument is that we need to pay politicans, other high ranking public servants (including the likes of those on all the quangoes, semi states, regulatory authorities, etc) and indeed high ranking bankers high salaries to guarantee we get quality people.
    I kid you not. ............

    Perhaps it's because they're the ones who know where the bodies are buried?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Politicians are one the very few people in public service in this country that can be held accountable for their actions.

    Every election, the voting populace of this country has the right and opportunity to remove them from power, effectively implementing a 100% pay cut for poor performance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    You may be interested to know that members of the British parliament were not paid until about 100 years ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Welease wrote: »
    Politicians are one the very few people in public service in this country that can be held accountable for their actions.

    Every election, the voting populace of this country has the right and opportunity to remove them from power, effectively implementing a 100% pay cut for poor performance.

    Ehh that would be what you would normally expect :rolleyes:
    Except this is Ireland where bev flynn gets in, willie o'dea tops the poll and lowry strolls in.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Of course politicians should be paid. People should bear in mind that one of the great successes of radical politics in Britain was the introduction of paid MPs. Do you really want to go back to a time where only the aristocratic class can afford to be MPs? Or where MPs have to find an income through other means? Its horribly naive to treat human beings as such.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    mickeyk wrote: »
    We need people with real business experience in cabinet and in the Dail, not Teachers and family of ex TD's. That is where our big problem lies.

    If you are a teacher and go this route you can have a permanent job waiting for you if you fail. If you are permanent in the first place of course.
    And failure is pretty common, most TD's don't get elected first time, it takes a few attempts.
    Or maybe a publican, realy get a good manager in and a pub runs itself.

    Few business men or women can afford to take the eye off their business and throw themselves into politics.
    Albert Reynolds would be the most succusful businessman I know who reached the top, can't realy think of anything else.

    Few enough would leave a permanent full time job to concentrate on politics with no backup plan and the chance of failure is high.
    Pascal Donohue in Dublin Central is a FG senator. Left a great job in a corporation, tried for the Dail and failed narrowly twice! Examples like this are rare.
    Fair enough he is a senator on great money but there was no guarantee that would happen

    And you say they shouldn't be paid?
    That guarantees even more of the same


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    If you are a teacher and go this route you can have a permanent job waiting for you if you fail. If you are permanent in the first place of course.
    And failure is pretty common, most TD's don't get elected first time, it takes a few attempts.
    Or maybe a publican, realy get a good manager in and a pub runs itself.

    Few business men or women can afford to take the eye off their business and throw themselves into politics.
    Albert Reynolds would be the most succusful businessman I know who reached the top, can't realy think of anything else.

    Few enough would leave a permanent full time job to concentrate on politics with no backup plan and the chance of failure is high.
    Pascal Donohue in Dublin Central is a FG senator. Left a great job in a corporation, tried for the Dail and failed narrowly twice! Examples like this are rare.
    Fair enough he is a senator on great money but there was no guarantee that would happen

    And you say they shouldn't be paid?
    That guarantees even more of the same
    Where did I say they shouldn't be paid? Thats a ridiculous suggestion and I never advocated that in my post. My point is that we need a higher quality of candidate entering politics, the h.dip does not qualify you to run a government department and it never will, this type of politician is easily led by the nose by civil servants who will want to continue the status quo. How to get better more experienced people into politics is the problem I agree. At cabinet level they could be directly appointed to key ministries for a start.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    mickeyk wrote: »
    Where did I say they shouldn't be paid? Thats a ridiculous suggestion and I never advocated that in my post. My point is that we need a higher quality of candidate entering politics, the h.dip does not qualify you to run a government department and it never will, this type of politician is easily led by the nose by civil servants who will want to continue the status quo. How to get better more experienced people into politics is the problem I agree. At cabinet level they could be directly appointed to key ministries for a start.

    There is nothing stopping highly qualified business people and academics from running for office. The problem is they rarely get elected. Your anger should be taken out on the Irish electorate, not the army of teachers this country re-elects term after term after term...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    mickeyk wrote: »
    My point is that we need a higher quality of candidate entering politics, the h.dip does not qualify you to run a government department and it never will, this type of politician is easily led by the nose by civil servants who will want to continue the status quo. How to get better more experienced people into politics is the problem I agree. At cabinet level they could be directly appointed to key ministries for a start.

    Isn't the quality of our politicians a reflection on our attitutde to those we deem that should be in power. We always put teachers on a pedistal because we weren't educaion as a nation now that has changed, but our attitude hasn't. In the USA as far as I know most of their politicians are lawers. We need to get rid of this parish pump politics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    mickeyk wrote: »
    Where did I say they shouldn't be paid? Thats a ridiculous suggestion and I never advocated that in my post.

    I never said you did mickeyk
    femur61 wrote: »
    Yeah why are they being paid. .

    The OP's title and this quote, that's where I'm getting it from.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    jmayo wrote: »
    Ehh that would be what you would normally expect :rolleyes:
    Except this is Ireland where bev flynn gets in, willie o'dea tops the poll and lowry strolls in.

    Correct.. but the option is there.. so it's unfair to blame politicians for that..

    It's nigh on impossible to get rid of wasters in the PS.. but at least with politicians the option is there, and the Irish people get to participate in the process.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Denerick wrote: »
    There is nothing stopping highly qualified business people and academics from running for office. The problem is they rarely get elected. Your anger should be taken out on the Irish electorate, not the army of teachers this country re-elects term after term after term...
    Not sure about this, look at how George Lee stormed the polls when he decided to run (I know his tenure was a disaster), high profile business people would get elected if they decided to run. And it would make sense to elect them as they are usually competent and proactive, and the type of people who would get things done. I agree that there is a conundrum trying to get them into politics as their skillset is highly valued and rewarded in the private sector, and many of them would command salaries much higher than that of a TD.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    mickeyk wrote: »
    I think an audience member on Frontline put it very well last night when he said that the most experienced businessman in our cabinet ran a bikeshop, and the rest aren't qualified to run a sweetshop.

    There's plenty of people with business experience in the Dail. People like Frank Fahey and Donie Cassidy. Liam Lawlor was a great business type too. I'm not sure voting for business people is fool-proof.

    P.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    mickeyk wrote: »
    Not sure about this, look at how George Lee stormed the polls when he decided to run (I know his tenure was a disaster), high profile business people would get elected if they decided to run. And it would make sense to elect them as they are usually competent and proactive, and the type of people who would get things done. I agree that there is a conundrum trying to get them into politics as their skillset is highly valued and rewarded in the private sector, and many of them would command salaries much higher than that of a TD.

    Ah please do not put george lee into category of business people.
    He had absolutely no business experience behind him.
    He was commentator on national broadcaster who had the cop on to tell people that the spoof being fed by the vested interests including our government about our economy and construction bubble was all sh**e.

    He got in because he was now seen as right by the masses who previously had probably being labelling him a whinger.

    The type of people we would need would be the likes of Gerry Robinson, Denis Brosnan, Michael O'Leary, but of course these people would firstly not have the time nor inclination to be available to the constituents to solve their medical card or planning issues and secondly they would find that everyone else within the corridors of power, politicans and civil service, are not interested in really rocking the boat.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    jmayo wrote: »
    Ah please do not put george lee into category of business people.
    He had absolutely no business experience behind him.
    He was commentator on national broadcaster who had the cop on to tell people that the spoof being fed by the vested interests including our government about our economy and construction bubble was all sh**e.

    He got in because he was now seen as right by the masses who previously had probably being labelling him a whinger.

    The type of people we would need would be the likes of Gerry Robinson, Denis Brosnan, Michael O'Leary, but of course these people would firstly not have the time nor inclination to be available to the constituents to solve their medical card or planning issues and secondly they would find that everyone else within the corridors of power, politicans and civil service, are not interested in really rocking the boat.
    I wasn't championing him as a businessman, just somebody with a high profile, and you only need that high profile in your own constituency, I know a few business people where I live who are known by everybody locally, and I would bet that they would come very close to getting in were they inclined to run for the Dail. And yes, TD's should not be dealing with medical cards and passport applications I agree 100%.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    oceanclub wrote: »
    There's plenty of people with business experience in the Dail. People like Frank Fahey and Donie Cassidy. Liam Lawlor was a great business type too. I'm not sure voting for business people is fool-proof.

    P.
    Possibly not, but at least they would have a better chance of making a success of their ministry if they were a specialist in that field. Brian Lenihan was our finance minister when the greatest financial disaster in our history was unfolding, and he admitted that he was very much learning on the job, surely we can do better than this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,612 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Welease wrote: »
    Every election, the voting populace of this country has the right and opportunity to remove them from power, effectively implementing a 100% pay cut for poor performance.
    I wouldn't call the generous pensions we pay ex politicians regardless of the manner of their performace an 100% pay cut.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    It would be nice to see politics not being some sort of career choice, especially for children of the local big man. Perhaps seeing experienced people taking time out from the careers, running for office, doing some political work and then returning to their careers, to ensure we always had fresh and energetic leadership without anyone getting too comfortable.

    However thered need to be lots of reform, theres no single quick fix. Local government reform to bring in regional government with its own tax raising power, removal of the Seanad, secret ballots in the Dail to break the whip system, a party list system, at least halving the number of TDs, putting in consitutional measures so that ministers cannot be sitting TDs so that the Dail holds the cabinet to account. Term limits on the seats so that TDs can only serve in the Dail for two terms.

    You would probably need an armed revolution to force the above reforms through as turkeys dont vote for christmas. And even so it might not work, or not in the ways intended.


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