Fluke inMilking Cows

milkprofit

Any one treating milking cows for fluke

whelan1

do them all at drying off regardless of time of year , did a few again with white dose during lactation that where poor

snowman707

not many products left now for dairy cows even in the dry period.

whelan1

ye its a disaster used to use flukiver / trodax

reilig

snowman707 wrote: »

not many products left now for dairy cows even in the dry period.

Would you never consider dosing cows with Bluestone (Copper Sulphate) in the dry period?? I do all my cows with it on an annual basis - it been done on the farm for the last 100 years. It works great and is reasonably cheap.

blue5000

Hi relig what is the bluestone for, copper?

reilig

blue5000 wrote: »

Hi relig what is the bluestone for, copper?

Its a fluke dose for both cattle and sheep.

Username John

reilig wrote: »

Its a fluke dose for both cattle and sheep.

Really? You'd want to be very careful re dosages I imagine.

What strength solution do you give, and when do you give it?

Thanks.

reilig

Username John wrote: »

Really? You'd want to be very careful re dosages I imagine.

What strength solution do you give, and when do you give it?

Thanks.

20 to 30 ml of bluestone dissolved in water is the standard amount for an adult cow. A table spoon holds approximately 20ml. You need to make it up with boiling water to ensure that it dissolves. I normally give them only 1 dose per year in early autumn and I never have a problem with fluke.

If you are not confident at measuring and making up doses yourself, then you can buy individual doses made up by a competent pharmacist - we have one locally who has run his chemist shop for over 50 years. He sells a lot of individual bluestone doses but also makes up a very effective worm dose for both cattle and sheep. He also sells a bottle of"ointment" that treats blood scour in calves. It costs only €6 and has saved many's a €40 for a vets call out charge for me!! Its handy to have a bottle in the fridge cause you're sure of at least 1 blood scour every year - and there is a long bb date on them.

I don't know if there are many pharmacists left in this country with his skills.

reilig

Below is an article from a us website called Acres which details the importance of copper to keep fluke at bay:

Liver Fluke

Fluke has a six-week life cycle from a small conical snail whose larvae infect the stock. These can infest very wet land or dams and, once they have been ingested, grow into a full-grown (about a centimeter wide) fluke in the host’s liver.

Signs of liver fluke are anaemia, ill thrift, occasionally a swelling under the jaw and a capricious appetite. Liver fluke drenches are very expensive, and rather severe. Raising the copper in the ration until the eyelids become a deep pink usually gets rid of fluke. This could mean a flat dessertspoon per cow for a few days, after that make sure the copper levels are correct and the fluke will not re-infest the animals. If they do, the beasts are not getting enough copper.

The drenches for fluke are very expensive and often difficult to get. However, it is the easiest to prevent; a fairly small amount of copper run through the ration is enough to prevent it. I did not realize this when I first went onto an irrigation farm (the fluke come in with the water), but wondered why I was the only person on the system that was not losing animals with fluke. The animals were on a small maintenance ration of copper in those days. Farmers have since told me that they put a thick canvas bag of copper sulfate by the water outlet onto the farm so that small amount is washed into the water at all times. That was their way of preventing fluke.

Username John

reilig wrote: »

20 to 30 ml of bluestone dissolved in water is the standard amount for an adult cow.

You say ml, would bluestone be measured in weight and not liquid? Or maybe is there a solution of % bluestone for each 20ml?

Do you remember what the dosage for sheep was?

snowman707

Username John wrote: »

Do you remember what the dosage for sheep was?

need to be VERY careful giving copper to sheep especially breeds like texel and rouge,

we do give copper to cows and indeed to sheep, but we use a slow release bolus which gives 6 months cover also covers selenium, iodine and cobalt,

gone off topic OP's post I think Zanil was one of the products for milking cows, subject to correction on that

whelan1

i think zanil does for rumen fluke too

LostCovey

reilig wrote: »

Below is an article from a us website called Acres which details the importance of copper to keep fluke at bay:

>< >< PISEÓG ALERT ><><><

I really can't stay silent and watch people fall for this.

This kind of advice is reckless and potentially very dangerous Reilig, because there is a danger that somebody might be innocent enough to believe it. And give a dose of copper to a FOOD ANIMAL that people will eventually eat.

We have crossed swords before when discussing the merits (none) of copper sulphate for orf in sheep.

Now it is being touted by you as a flukicide. You are rather fond of the stuff.

It's not a flukicide. This is nonsense.

It is a cheap, toxic, corrosive chemical. It contains copper, and can be used with a carefully calculated dose to treat copper deficiency - if your animal has confirmed copper deficiency (but if you accidentally overdose, you will kill the animal with copper poisoning). It works well topically in a suitably dilute solution for footrot and scald, because it has a bactericidal effect (but if you overdo it you will burn the skin).

That's it.

And don't get all emotional with me for disagreeing with you. I think it is really unfair of you to blandly make these kind of totally off-the-wall unfounded and dangerous assertions, giving people dangerously inaccurate advice and then shoot the messenger when someone like me tries to inject some sense into the discussion.

Lay off the copper sulphate for a while, please.

There are lots of safe licenced flukicides. That work.

LostCovey

whelan1

it obviously works for him

reilig

Will you please stop following me on boards.

You appear to have a comment on everything that I say. You appear to have trolled several threads on these boards already to start arguments, which you love, and then the threads are locked, do you get a thrill out of that???

Trust me, since you last posted at me I have done my research about copper sulphate. As I stated to you the last time, it has been used for many years on our farm and the farms of our neighbours for various treatments - long before you could buy manufactured doses. In the past 2 months i have spoken to 2 different vets on its uses for the treatment of orf - and as you rightly state in your post below, it has an anti bacterial effect and if you use it in a mild diluted solution on orf then it can treat the bacteria on the orf blisters of sheep and reduce them - causing them to scab and thus reducing the pain and suffering for the sheep. It also has the same anti-bacterial effect, as you mentioned in your post, for the treatment of foot rot, but in addition, vets recommend it as one of the best treatments for foot orf in sheep. Again, as i described above, the anti bacteria in the copper sulphate reduces blisters, allows scabbing and reduces the all too common bleeding associated with foot orf in sheep.

The above was information given to me by a vet. The same vet gave the same information at a farm walk. There must have been 50 sheep farmers at that event.
Could you get some type of injunction against vets giving out information like this?????

Licensed chemists and vets prescribe copper sulphate for the treatment of fluke in animals. The 2 different vets that I spoke to (the vet at the farm walk and my own vet) were very recommending of Copper sulphate for the treatment of fluke. However, it will not eradicate rumen fluke.

Organic farmers the world over use copper sulphate for the treatment of fluke - but as you said the last time, they are all "fools", and you would not take direction from them. For 50 years after the famine in this country, people used Copper sulphate for the treatment of blight in potatoes

Are you saying that vets, pharmacists and farmers are wrong and that you are right????

Its funny, because I am starting to believe that you are right. You do after all have better training than vets and pharmacists. You have better knowledge than organic farmers, sclentists and advisors the world over. All farmers should use off the shelf vaccines that cost up to 80% more than traditional vaccines.
From your advice I'm starting to believe that these manufactured animal vaccines are safe - the thimerosal aluminum hydroxide in some of the off the shelf fluke doses does no harm to humans if it is not properly absorbed and excreted from the system by the animal before it reaches the meat factory. Is it??? Or the Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Pertussis found in many off the shelf treatments for worms in cattle and sheep. Its quite safe isn't it??? Sure we could use it instead of milk on children's breakfast cereals.

Back to the point and incorporating your points. Do some research on it and you will see that only cattle that are deficient in copper will pick up liver fluke. If people do not feel competent enough to measure their own Cupper Sulphate individual doses, then they should go to their local vet or pharmacist who will prepare individual doses for them. These will be prescribed and will be safe.


Lastly, you are entitled to disagree with me. But you appear to only have disagreed with me for the sake of it or for comeback because of a previous post. You do not know anything about copper sulphate - apart from the fact that it is a harsh chemical and that it is dangerous to animals if given in high doses. But you came on here blowing about piseogs and you evidently do not have any information to back up what you are saying.

As you can see in my original post, I stated that if someone was not competent in making up their own dose, they should consult a professional who will guide and direct them.

From a farmer's point of view, it may be difficult to get advice about using Copper sulphate from a vet. Most of them get kickback and profit from veterinary medicine manufacturers and would promote their remedy ahead of a traditional remedy which may be just as effective, but much cheaper. Pharmacists with experience of animal medicines are few and far between too, but there are still a few to be found around the country.

At least if you dose an animal with a copper sulphate solution, you will know what you have given them. There are simple tests in meat factories for high levels of copper, but it is very rare that this will be ound in an animal. Medicine manufacturers are coming up with new formulas on an almost daily basis. How safe are they?? Will meat that we eat today have an effect on us in 20 years time??

I think the reason that organic producers are approved for using copper sulphate is because we know its effects and we can easily trace it if it is in meat.

LostCovey wrote: »

>< >< PISEÓG ALERT ><><><

I really can't stay silent and watch people fall for this.

This kind of advice is reckless and potentially very dangerous Reilig, because there is a danger that somebody might be innocent enough to believe it. And give a dose of copper to a FOOD ANIMAL that people will eventually eat.

We have crossed swords before when discussing the merits (none) of copper sulphate for orf in sheep.

Now it is being touted by you as a flukicide. You are rather fond of the stuff.

It's not a flukicide. This is nonsense.

It is a cheap, toxic, corrosive chemical. It contains copper, and can be used with a carefully calculated dose to treat copper deficiency - if your animal has confirmed copper deficiency (but if you accidentally overdose, you will kill the animal with copper poisoning). It works well topically in a suitably dilute solution for footrot and scald, because it has a bactericidal effect (but if you overdo it you will burn the skin).

That's it.

And don't get all emotional with me for disagreeing with you. I think it is really unfair of you to blandly make these kind of totally off-the-wall unfounded and dangerous assertions, giving people dangerously inaccurate advice and then shoot the messenger when someone like me tries to inject some sense into the discussion.

Lay off the copper sulphate for a while, please.

There are lots of safe licenced flukicides. That work.

LostCovey

LostCovey

Reilig, you're a star!

You have really excelled this time. I don't think I ever read a post that long where I disagreed with almost everything in it! Impossible to respond to it all but here goes:

reilig wrote: »

Will you please stop following me on boards.

You appear to have a comment on everything that I say. You appear to have trolled several threads on these boards already to start arguments, which you love, and then the threads are locked, do you get a thrill out of that???

Now, now. Play the ball, not the man Reilig. If you have any evidence of me misbehaving in any way on this forum - specifically harrassing you or trolling - send it to a moderator.

reilig wrote: »

The above was information given to me by a vet. The same vet gave the same information at a farm walk. There must have been 50 sheep farmers at that event.
Could you get some type of injunction against vets giving out information like this?????

This is hearsay of educated people allegedly saying things that have no basis or foundation in reality - that is not evidence. There is no evidence that copper sulphate is a flukicide. The possession of a qualification does not endow anyone with the gift of prophecy. The number of people on a farm walk is not proof of what somebody said. Winston Churchill said that "the only purpose of an education is to enable one to recognise when a chap is talking rot". I am educated enough to spot the rot your educated friends are selling you by the pound/euro. I do not need to be a vet or a village chemist to do that

reilig wrote: »

Licensed chemists and vets prescribe copper sulphate for the treatment of fluke in animals. The 2 different vets that I spoke to (the vet at the farm walk and my own vet) were very recommending of Copper sulphate for the treatment of fluke.

Please do not name the vets, as you could get them struck off the register for offering nonsensical baseless advice like that.

reilig wrote: »

Do some research on it and you will see that only cattle that are deficient in copper will pick up liver fluke.

There is no basis for this statement. This is an assertion without a shred of scientific or evidential basis.

reilig wrote: »

For 50 years after the famine in this country, people used Copper sulphate for the treatment of blight in potatoes.

No contest here. Copper sulphate has bactericidal and fungicidal properties. It kills the potato blight fungus. No argument with you here whatever believe it or not. But you said for 50 years after the famine - maybe a hundred actually. Why did people stop and move over to Dithane 945 and whatever else - because they worked better, had longer residual effects and were safer!!!!

So no worries about potato blight. However YOU SAID IT IS A FLUKICIDE.

reilig wrote: »

Are you saying that vets, pharmacists and farmers are wrong and that you are right????

No because I have never come across a vet, pharmacist or farmer that believes any of this guff you are sharing with us today.

reilig wrote: »

Its funny, because I am starting to believe that you are right. You do after all have better training than vets and pharmacists. You have better knowledge than organic farmers, sclentists and advisors the world over. All farmers should use off the shelf vaccines that cost up to 80% more than traditional vaccines.

Off the shelf vaccines cost 80% more than traditional vaccines????? What on earth is a traditional vaccine? This should be good.

reilig wrote: »

If people do not feel competent enough to measure their own Cupper Sulphate individual doses, then they should go to their local vet or pharmacist who will prepare individual doses for them. These will be prescribed and will be safe.

This is more Harry Potter stuff.

reilig wrote: »

Or the Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Pertussis found in many off the shelf treatments for worms in cattle and sheep. Its quite safe isn't it??? Sure we could use it instead of milk on children's breakfast cereals.

Do you really really believe that there are bacterial toxoids in commercial cattle wormers? Pertussis is whooping cough - in worm doses????? This is off the wall.

Have you heard of the Irish Medicines Board, that licences all these products after extensive trials, tests and safety screening? Why don't you send them your cure-all copper theories. Just keep it anonymous, in case they trace you. They do that you know.

reilig wrote: »

But you came on here blowing about piseogs and you evidently do not have any information to back up what you are saying.

Correction, Reilig, a chara uasal, ba cheart dom a rá gurb iad piseógaí agus árd-ráiméis a raibh ann.

No I don't have evidence for what copper sulphate doesn't do. I can't prove it doesn't kill liver fluke. I can't prove it doesn't turn leprechauns purple. I can't prove a negative. That's why if you propagate zany theories, you will be challenged by people saying "prove it". You should be able to prove WHAT IT CAN DO. Or show us scientific evidence where a reputable scientist or institution proved it.

reilig wrote: »

As you can see in my original post, I stated that if someone was not competent in making up their own dose, they should consult a professional who will guide and direct them.

A professional will be using evidence-based medicine, and ultimately be applying principles that derive from published peer-reviewed research.

reilig wrote: »

From a farmer's point of view, it may be difficult to get advice about using Copper sulphate from a vet. Most of them get kickback and profit from veterinary medicine manufacturers and would promote their remedy ahead of a traditional remedy which may be just as effective, but much cheaper. Pharmacists with experience of animal medicines are few and far between too, but there are still a few to be found around the country.

All the vets are corrupt apart from the ones that don't dismiss zany theories on the use of copper sulphate?

reilig wrote: »

At least if you dose an animal with a copper sulphate solution, you will know what you have given them. There are simple tests in meat factories for high levels of copper, but it is very rare that this will be ound in an animal.

There are no tests for copper in meat factories, simple or otherwise. Fact.

reilig wrote: »

I think the reason that organic producers are approved for using copper sulphate is because we know its effects and we can easily trace it if it is in meat.

Well that beats Banagher.

I would have very little faith that the 'we' you refer to know anything about the safe use of farm chemicals. If dosing a food animal with a toxic chemical that needs to be diluted in a footbath is OK by the organic movement, then that says a lot about the organic movement if true. I always had my suspicions that it was made up as they went along.

Well that was tedious, but it had to be done.

LostCovey

whelan1

do you ever give up :mad:

LostCovey

whelan1 wrote: »

it obviously works for him

Well obviously!!

That is the ultimate cop-out. If it works for him (or her, don't presume it's a man Whelan1) then he/she should be perfectly free to advise the world that it works for him or her.

However, that's not what Reilig is claiming. Reilig is claiming that there are vets and farmers all over the country who believe and advise the use of copper sulphate to kill liver fluke. And that anyone who doesn't believe this is a bit dim. Now Reilig is passing on this "advice" to someone who wants a residue free flukicide for dairy cows.

I am just challenging it.

Sorry if I upset you.

LostCovey

LostCovey

whelan1 wrote: »

do you ever give up :mad:

Look, that's just a sneer. If you want to take up the actual discussion, fine. Not much point in posting the big red face, it isn't much of an argument.

LC

whelan1

am not the one thats a sneer you just took anothers posters post apart bit by bit with your opinion that every one is by now sick of

dar31

will the two of ye get a room

LostCovey

dar31 wrote: »

will the two of ye get a room

She's not my type

LC

LostCovey

whelan1 wrote: »

am not the one thats a sneer you just took anothers posters post apart bit by bit with your opinion that every one is by now sick of

Whelan1, you are fully entitled to your opinion. You speak for everyone?? - maybe so. Even if you do, I still have the same right to express an opinion as your or your friend Reilig. It's a discussion board.

Signed

Copperface Jack

The_Conductor

And closed.

Warning to posters here- if you disagree with a post- refute it factually- or you will receive a holiday from this forum. Some of the posts here are bordering on the ridiculous.

Regards,

SMcCarrick