The Islamification of Europe...

DACSTER

If you want to label me - I'm an atheist. I can't understand the basis for Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Judasim and islam - that basis being:

....the belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree!

If you're a christian then I really don't mean to offend you, I'm just applying logic to your religion.

Now to my point: Is the West being Islamified.....I would like to enter into debate with the more enlightened of you who won't be afraid to be labled "racist" by left wing liberals.

I'd like your comments on this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgmhF2rtEdQ

Kazuma

Ridiculous. If you're serious about the video, then this post belongs more in the conspiracy theories forum. There is no great evil muslim plan to conquer Europe :rolleyes:

DACSTER

Kazuma wrote: »

Ridiculous. If you're serious about the video, then this post belongs more in the conspiracy theories forum. There is no great evil muslim plan to conquer Europe :rolleyes:

Thanks for your opinion. I think it's naive but I will say that Ireland is vastly different to the majority of Europe.

It has become almost impossible in Western Mainstream media to criticise islam. How did that happen?

ei.sdraob

DACSTER wrote: »

It has become almost impossible in Western Mainstream media to criticise islam. How did that happen?

here in Ireland, could thank the Blasphemy & related Bills

and not just when it comes to discussing Islam

Kazuma

DACSTER wrote: »

Thanks for your opinion. I think it's naive but I will say that Ireland is vastly different to the majority of Europe.

It has become almost impossible in Western Mainstream media to criticise islam. How did that happen?

I'm assuming you mean that Ireland is still relatively untouched by this influx of muslims? I've spent a few years living in mainland europe, so I'm aware how many muslims there are. In fact, some of my best friends during that time were muslim.
There is a lot of underlying hatred/distrust for the in some countries (some german friends in particular were not keen on them at all), but I suppose the reason the mainstream western media does not criticise islam is because there's no real reason to criticise it any more than any of the other common religions.
I was not aware that islam was no longer criticised by american media (are you including this in "western mainstream"?)

JayEnnis

Kazuma wrote: »

Ridiculous. If you're serious about the video, then this post belongs more in the conspiracy theories forum. There is no great evil muslim plan to conquer Europe :rolleyes:

I haven't watched the video by the way.

But christianity is openly criticized by major news networks all over Europe due to the abuse issues and so forth.

But when was the last time you heard Islam in Europe being criticized? Its treatment of women is nearly as bad as the abuse issues the Christian church faces?

DACSTER

ei.sdraob wrote: »

here in Ireland, could thank the Blasphemy & related Bills

and not just when it comes to discussing Islam

Good point. Surely it's my right, though, to speak out against something which I see as wrong? without the fear of being castigated for it.

DACSTER

JayEnnis wrote: »

I haven't watched the video by the way.

But christianity is openly criticized by major news networks all over Europe due to the abuse issues and so forth.

But when was the last time you heard Islam in Europe being criticized? Its treatment of women is nearly as bad as the abuse issues the Christian church faces?

Have you heard of Geert Wilders and the PVV party in Holland?

JayEnnis

DACSTER wrote: »

Have you heard of Geert Wilders and the PVV party in Holland?

No fill me in.

DACSTER

JayEnnis wrote: »

No fill me in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders

You have never heard of the film - Fitna?

He was banned from entering the UK because of it - but yet many islamic imams can and do preach hate in the UK.

P. Breathnach

DACSTER wrote: »

... Now to my point: Is the West being Islamified.....I would like to enter into debate with the more enlightened of you who won't be afraid to be labled "racist" by left wing liberals.

Most people are are not afraid to be labelled "racist" are racists. So basically you are inviting people to enter into a discussion among racists.

I'd like your comments on this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgmhF2rtEdQ

It's a really ugly piece of xenophobia.

DACSTER

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Most people are are not afraid to be labelled "racist" are racists. So basically you are inviting people to enter into a discussion among racists.



It's a really ugly piece of xenophobia.

Ah, you are the perfect example of the person who dismisses debate under the umbrella of racism and xenophobia. but that's your bag.

Have the heard of the DL's (Defence Leagues) springing up all over Europe?

JayEnnis

DACSTER wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders

You have never heard of the film - Fitna?

He was banned from entering the UK because of it - but yet many islamic imams can and do preach hate in the UK.

I completely agree with everything he says.

Although we need diversity its gotten to the point where my cousin is in a school with so many non-nationals that she's finding it hard to learn English properly as there are so many other languages going on.

Come to our country if you want but speak our language, obey our laws and respect our culture.

Palmach

DACSTER wrote: »

Now to my point: Is the West being Islamified.....I would like to enter into debate with the more enlightened of you who won't be afraid to be labled "racist" by left wing liberals.

I'd like your comments on this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgmhF2rtEdQ

This video is nonsense.The islamic birth rate is not 8.1 but is broadly similar to the indigenous European population. The Muslim population of the Netherlands is in fact falling not rising as said in the video. The rest is pure hokum especially the start when the narrator waffles about birthrates and fall of civilizations yet offers no research to back this up. The Muslim population of Belgium is less than 500,000 so the alarmist statisitics about half of all births being Muslims is untrue.

DACSTER

JayEnnis wrote: »

I completely agree with everything he says.

Although we need diversity its gotten to the point where my cousin is in a school with so many non-nationals that she's finding it hard to learn English properly as there are so many other languages going on.

Come to our country if you want but speak our language, obey our laws and respect our culture.

That's more about unfettered immigration.

I'm more bothered about a religion that preaches hate towards non-believers (kaffirs) and its subjugation of women.

DACSTER

Palmach wrote: »

This video is nonsense.The islamic birth rate is not 8.1 but is broadly similar to the indigenous European population. The Muslim population of the Netherlands is in fact falling not rising as said in the video. The rest is pure hokum especially the start when the narrator waffles about birthrates and fall of civilizations yet offers no research to back this up. The Muslim population of Belgium is less than 500,000 so the alarmist statisitics about half of all births being Muslims is untrue.

European birth rates are under the required level.

Muslim birth rates are not.

Thats not xenophoia or racism - thats maths.

Einhard

Population of Europe (incl. Balkans, excl. Turkey): 735 million

Muslim population of Europe: 51 million

Muslim population as % of whole: 7

I don't know how you define "Islamification" but just looking at the statistics, I'd argue that you have nothing to worry about.

P. Breathnach

DACSTER wrote: »

Ah, you are the perfect example of the person who dismisses debate under the umbrella of racism and xenophobia. but that's your bag...

Bollocks. I wasted seven minutes of my life watching the video you linked. It is on the basis of what I saw that I call it xenophobic.

oceanclub

DACSTER wrote: »

Is the West being Islamified

Well, I just had a pig fry-up and Pimms for breakfast and haven't been arrested by the religious police yet.

P.

DACSTER

Einhard wrote: »

Population of Europe (incl. Balkans, excl. Turkey): 735 million

Muslim population of Europe: 51 million

Muslim population as % of whole: 7

I don't know how you define "Islamification" but just looking at the statistics, I'd argue that you have nothing to worry about.

Ok, why factor out Turkey, the Balkans and Russia, why factor out that most immigration into Europe is islamic?

It's expotential....

Why are there "Super Mosques" being built all over Europe? with the help of Waahabi (saudi) petro dollars?

silverharp

I wouldnt get too worried about it, if history is any guide then within a couple of generations there will be as many nominal muslims as the are nominal christians. If I was being optimistic I'd just describe it as growing pains as the various backward cultures adjust to modern values.

Its always dangerous to extrpolate current trends so I am not worried about a zombie like invasion of fundamentalist mulsims or anyone else

Joneser

To be honest I think this should go into the conspiracy theories forum, there are videos around that say similar things for other religions, I recently watched one that is about how the Jews are taking over the world...I find it all interesting but wouldn't take it too seriously.

storm2811

You are talking like it's a conspiracy alright.
Muslims obviously immigrated to Europe at some point and now mosques are being built to meet their needs,no problem with that,a lot of muslims here don't even have a mosque to pray in.

Pittens

Bollocks. I wasted seven minutes of my life watching the video you linked. It is on the basis of what I saw that I call it xenophobic.

yes, but why?

The extrapolation of muslim birthrates do make them a majority in the future. That is simple maths. The question is whether the birthrates converge, or not.

DACSTER

silverharp wrote: »

I wouldnt get too worried about it, if history is any guide then within a couple of generations there will be as many nominal muslims as the are nominal christians. If I was being optimistic I'd just describe it as growing pains as the various backward cultures adjust to modern values.

Its always dangerous to extrpolate current trends so I am not worried about a zombie like invasion of fundamentalist mulsims or anyone else

Very nice use of artistic licence. Zombies? Fundementals?

P. Breathnach

Pittens wrote: »

yes, but why?

The extrapolation of muslim birthrates do make them a majority in the future. That is simple maths. The question is whether the birthrates converge, or not.

There is a bit more to demography than "simple maths".

southsiderosie

Pittens wrote: »

yes, but why?

The extrapolation of muslim birthrates do make them a majority in the future. That is simple maths. The question is whether the birthrates converge, or not.

There were the same kind of fears about the Irish (and to a lesser extent Italians and Poles) in the US 100-150 years ago, who came with their love of alcohol, their "papist" ways, and their large families. Catholicism was seen as a particular threat because of the power of the Vatican and of the church as both a religious and political institution. Yet despite these fears, Catholics from Ireland and Southern and Eastern Europe have integrated just fine into what was a predominately Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture. There is no reason to think that Muslim birthrates won't converge over the next 2-3 generations in Europe as well, for now anyway.

Pittens

There is a bit more to demography than "simple maths".

Sure. shouting xenophobia. That'll sort out the simple maths. That'll show em.

Pittens

Yet despite these fears, Catholics from Ireland and Southern and Eastern Europe have integrated just fine into what was a predominately Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture. There is no reason to think that Muslim birthrates won't converge over the next 2-3 generations in Europe as well, for now anyway.

Yes, that is possibly the correct answer, as opposed to just shouting xenophobia. YOu are saying that the birthrate and the cultures will converge. That could well happen.

Does it happen everywhere? What about the movement of protestants to Northern Ireland, did they integrate. Or white immigration to the US. Doesnt always happen.

Pittens

Anyway we dont know. Believe it or not I tend towards SouthsideRosies view that integration wil happen. Her argument beats just shouting xenophobia.

That counter argument as it stands is mathematically correct; smaller populations with larger birthrates will overtake larger populations with smaller birthrates at some time in the future unless there is a convergence in birth rates.

Betting on the convergence may be a mistake, we dont know. The past is not prelude. But it is an argument.

oceanclub

DACSTER wrote: »

Ok, why factor out Turkey, the Balkans and Russia, why factor out that most immigration into Europe is islamic?

Um, you do realise that Turkey has been more secular than Ireland?

P.

Nodin

DACSTER wrote: »

Now to my point: Is the West being Islamified....

No.

DACSTER wrote: »

I'd like your comments on this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgmhF2rtEdQ

It's a load of long debunked crap.

Pittens wrote:

The extrapolation of muslim birthrates do make them a majority in the future.

Only if they're extrapolated by people with no understanding of demographics, cranks and right wing nut jobs.
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/07/10/why-fears-of-a-muslim-takeover-are-all-wrong.html

Frank Grimes

I was googling around to try to find out some more about the video in the OP and found this in case anyone else is interested, and for the sake of balance.

Basically, last year one of the BBC's radio programmes checked into the statistics that were being used in that video (what was posted here is a re-upload of the 'Muslim Demographics' video from what I can see) and found some of them to be very problematic. The show posted it on youtube also - link.

silverharp

DACSTER wrote: »

Very nice use of artistic licence. Zombies? Fundementals?

just paying homage to the Telegraph or tabloid view of the wrold that would normaly have used words like "invasion" or "flood" by the end of the first paragraph:D

P. Breathnach

Frank Grimes wrote: »

I was googling around to try to find out some more about the video in the OP and found this in case anyone else is interested, and for the sake of balance.

Basically, last year one of the BBC's radio programmes checked into the statistics that were being used in that video (what was posted here is a re-upload of the 'Muslim Demographics' video from what I can see) and found some of them to be very problematic. The show posted it on youtube also - link.

So we have been wasting our time discussing a pack of lies.

Pittens

To be fair Breathnach you replied with the xenophobia argument before you mentioned the pack of lies. COuld have been all true. I was a bit dubious about the French Muslim Birthrate, to be honest.

Pittens

Nodin wrote: »

No.


Only if they're extrapolated by people with no understanding of demographics, cranks and right wing nut jobs.
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/07/10/why-fears-of-a-muslim-takeover-are-all-wrong.html

I am dubious about NewsWeeks counter arguments

For the number of Muslims to outnumber non-Muslims by midcentury, it would require either breeding on a scale rarely seen in history or for immigration to continue at a pace that's now politically unacceptable. More likely, new controls will slow Muslim immigration. The birthrate for Muslim immigrants is also likely to continue to decline, as it has tended to do, with greater affluence and better health care. There is no Europewide data available, but one study says fertility rates among Turkish-born women in the Netherlands fell from 3.2 in 1990 to 1.9 in 2005, barely above the figure for native-born Dutch. Over the same period, the equivalent figure for Moroccan-born women in the Netherlands dropped from 4.9 to 2.9.

The immigration to continue at a pace that's now politically unacceptable. Continue.

I take it then supporters of the Newsweek argument would agree that it should not continue at such a rate.

I doubt if there is much threat to Europe from the existing Muslim population, but a combination of immigration and high birth rates ( the former keeping the latter higher) and there could be.

So, we have a solution here and thanks to Nodin for supplying it.

Pittens

Um, you do realise that Turkey has been more secular than Ireland?

The State is, the people are not.

ei.sdraob

Alot of people have a rather backward view of Turkey

yee might be interested in reading this > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/business/global/06lira.html?_r=2&ref=business

Scofflaw

Nodin wrote: »

No.

It's a load of long debunked crap.

Only if they're extrapolated by people with no understanding of demographics, cranks and right wing nut jobs.
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/07/10/why-fears-of-a-muslim-takeover-are-all-wrong.html

Neatly summarises the problem with this thread. A load of long debunked crap doesn't really merit forum space.

moderately,
Scofflaw