A Foxy Dilemma

Sonnenblumen

Recently I came across an unusual dilemma in a sub-urban setting. Here's the situation. Next door the house has been vacant for some time and the garden has become grossly overgrown. Recently a vixen along with four cubs have taken up residence in the overgrown garden!

Now here's the problem. Several times daily the vixen along with young foxes are visiting neighbouring garden and fouling everywhere. Of great concern is the potential health hazard of fox faeces in the garden and a real fear of the very young visiting grandchildren being attacked by the foxes (this fear has come about by the recent fox attack of a baby in the UK).

What does one do? Be vigilent and wait to allow foxes to grow, wean and disperse? Is this an unfair uncompromising challenge of nature in a sub-urban setting? Foxes are increasingly seen around Dublin everyday, but I have never seen any take up residence in a garden.

Has anyone had a similar experience and how or what actions were taken?

looksee

I have heard of a few instances in the UK of foxes becoming urbanised and a pest - a relative had a family of foxes under a shed and they were a nuisance scattering rubbish and leaving droppings.

While they are cute and pretty and all the rest, I think you could contact maybe the dog wardens and see if they have any policy on them. If they grow and disperse that will be four more urbanised foxes just in one garden.

looksee

Hmm, I got interested and checked up to see if there were any regulations about foxes and it appears they are flavour of the month! Have a look at this website http://www.rte.ie/radio/mooneygoeswild/factsheets/fox/index.html

Sonnenblumen

looksee wrote: »

Hmm, I got interested and checked up to see if there were any regulations about foxes and it appears they are flavour of the month! Have a look at this website http://www.rte.ie/radio/mooneygoeswild/factsheets/fox/index.html

Thanks for that link, pretty much pro Fox propaganda. Although I have no real hard and fast attitude towards foxes in general, I would consider them vermin, and if out of sight then thats fine. Taking up residence in a neighbouring garden is a completely different matter and no, I would not be so tolerant or patient to wait until cubs are reared. Spoiling and scavenging might be acceptable to Fox lovers, but health hazards are a much more serious threat to people and/or family pets.

AFAIK DSPCA do not rescue foxes? As for City Councils, well, I wouldn't even go there!

Where could I hire a band of hungry hounds?:D

secman

If the garden was knocked back into shape and kept so, would this kind of activity cause the vixen and cubs to find alternative accomodation. How about contacting the owner with a view to doing this ?


Secman

skywalker_208

Was that attack in the UK proven to be a fox?
I remember reading about about some experts saying it was unlikely...

Sonnenblumen

secman wrote: »

If the garden was knocked back into shape and kept so, would this kind of activity cause the vixen and cubs to find alternative accomodation. How about contacting the owner with a view to doing this ?


Secman

Fair point Secman and it might be worth pursuing? However the key point remains, how does one deal with the increasing encroachment by foxes in
urban areas. I am a little uneasy with the apparent 'laissez faire' attitude and 'not our responsibilty' responses from the Authorities.

My otherwise animal lover instincts fail me when it comes to foxes in urban gardens.

Discodog

Foxes will spread into urban areas & the only way of stopping this is to reduce their food source - our waste. There is a negligible risk of disease & as rats are a main part of the fox's diet, they reduce disease.

There has been a huge amount of hysteria regarding fox aggression. I have rescued many foxes, including those that have been involved in RTA's & are in severe pain. I have never met an aggressive fox.

If you choose to directly threaten her & her cubs she is more likely to move them than become aggressive. It would be really beneficial to the grandchildren to be able to visit granny & watch the foxes. I had the opportunity to feed wild foxes as a child & it had a profound effect on me.

10,000 foxes live in London. Prior to the alleged attack no one had reported problems with aggressive foxes. Since the incident some people have jumped on the bandwagon but a recent survey showed that 65% of Londoners were pro fox.

So why not let the foxes be ?. Better than having the empty house full of rats & the cubs will soon disperse to establish their own territories. The urban fox is just doing what comes naturally & taking advantage of a food source. She won't hurt you so why hurt her ?.

Sonnenblumen

I probably like many urban living people had a benign view of foxes, largely based on the romantic notion that they were largely shy country dwellers which apart from eating bugs and slugs the main criticisms one would encounter concerned foxes killing young lambs and fowl. Yes in recent years, sightings of foxes in urban areas has become an everyday event. However the more I investigate, the more my views are changing and I too would be concerned that foxes are not furry friends. The fox population in Dublin area has increased dramatically and is now close to numbers in London area. As they change habitat the risk of disease increases. Foxes are not clean and their presence in urban gardens is far from an upclose friendly learning experience. On the contrary as is the case with any scavenging animal, disease/infection is a high risk, and more so for some groups including young children.

I am not proposing a fox cull but notwithstanding your positive experiences, I do not think it sensible, wise or indeed safe, to encourage closer contact between city dwellers especially young children and foxes. For me, it does appear from a health and safety perspective at least, that the fox (despite our romaticised images/notions) has much more in common with the common rat and caution at all times should be advised.

John Mason

may be you could contact fox watch ireland?

http://homepage.eircom.net/~foxwatchireland/home.htm

the reason foxes are coming into urban settings is because the urban has moved in to their territory. their homes, land, and food supplies are rapidly disappearing.

they are probably thinking the exact same things as you

poor foxes

The Urban Fox Project, UCD.

Dave Wall
Mammal Research Group,
Zoology Dept.,
UCD, Belfield,
Dublin 4.

Tel: 087 2977931
e-mail: mammals@ucd.ie

flutered

irishbird wrote: »

may be you could contact fox watch ireland?

http://homepage.eircom.net/~foxwatchireland/home.htm

the reason foxes are coming into urban settings is because the urban has moved in to their territory. their homes, land, and food supplies are rapidly disappearing.

they are probably thinking the exact same things as you

poor foxes

the recession have solved that one.
b.t.w have you ever heard a hare screaming as a fox skinned it alive for pleasure. poor hare.

Discodog

flutered wrote: »

b.t.w have you ever heard a hare screaming as a fox skinned it alive for pleasure. poor hare.

No I haven't. Not after donkey's years of living in the country surrounded by foxes & sometimes working/rescuing them. Anyone who has ever seen any predator chasing fast moving prey knows that they have to kill quickly to avoid the prey running off. Foxes, like most carnivores, go for the throat which is why we find headless chickens.

Again like other predators foxes do not kill for fun. Few animals do with the domestic cat as one example in that it is not killing for food. Can you provide some evidence that a fox has skinned a Hare alive ?.

Discodog

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

As they change habitat the risk of disease increases. Foxes are not clean and their presence in urban gardens is far from an upclose friendly learning experience. On the contrary as is the case with any scavenging animal, disease/infection is a high risk, and more so for some groups including young children.

What diseases do you mean ?. I am not aware of any Government, Health Office, or Local Authority that has ever raised the issue of foxes posing a disease risk to humans. Foxes are very clean. Their dens are immaculate & apart from mange, which they catch from domestic dogs, I am not aware of any other health problems.

Domestic cats scavenge in bins etc like the fox but in even greater numbers. They then come into the owners homes. If there were a risk of infection, which I don't think there is, then we should start with cats.

Sonnenblumen

irishbird wrote: »

may be you could contact fox watch ireland?

http://homepage.eircom.net/~foxwatchireland/home.htm

the reason foxes are coming into urban settings is because the urban has moved in to their territory. their homes, land, and food supplies are rapidly disappearing.

they are probably thinking the exact same things as you

poor foxes

The Urban Fox Project, UCD.

Dave Wall
Mammal Research Group,
Zoology Dept.,
UCD, Belfield,
Dublin 4.

Tel: 087 2977931
e-mail: mammals@ucd.ie

Nonsense, I don't think central Dublin could be accused of encroaching on fox territory. I have come across Urban Fox Watch.
Thanks.

Discodog

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Nonsense, I don't think central Dublin could be accused of encroaching on fox territory. I have come across Urban Fox Watch.
Thanks.

Every town, city & development has encroached on fox territories. They were here long before us.

mathepac

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

... The fox population in Dublin area has increased dramatically and is now close to numbers in London area. ...

Some of the other content of your post has been challenged elsewhere, but do you have any evidence for your statement above?

Sonnenblumen

Discodog wrote: »

What diseases do you mean ?. I am not aware of any Government, Health Office, or Local Authority that has ever raised the issue of foxes posing a disease risk to humans. Foxes are very clean. Their dens are immaculate & apart from mange, which they catch from domestic dogs, I am not aware of any other health problems.

Domestic cats scavenge in bins etc like the fox but in even greater numbers. They then come into the owners homes. If there were a risk of infection, which I don't think there is, then we should start with cats.

The lack of information from Authorities is hardly surprising nor would it be unusual as there are also many other areas where the Authorities have failed miserably to provide proper advice, information or assistance to the General Public. I subscribe to the view that Public welfare will always come before Animal welfare.

A simple Google search will provide lots of sources detailing the various diseases carried by Foxes. I was also surprised just how serious it can be. You are quite wrong, many if not most Foxes suffer Mange and are the primary cause for infecting domestic pets. How could you possibly be so pro-Fox and not know this? In fact in some countries, foxes are a primary carrier of rabies. Fortunately this is not present in Ireland.

Perhaps some wild cats do scavenge in bins but I would say that the vast majority of cat owners are probably the most caring and loving animal owners/carers around. One only has to look at the growth in overall sales of cat food products (increasingly premium products). Domesticated animals are the responsibility of the respective owners and is not relevant to wild animals.

Sonnenblumen

Discodog wrote: »

Every town, city & development has encroached on fox territories. They were here long before us.

I'm not going to discuss some position which is frankly stupid and silly like "here long before us". The evolution of man has been largely positive but with a few consequences, and as population continues to grow, people will have to be housed/accommodated.

BTW, I'm focussed on foxes in urban areas.

Discodog

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

A simple Google search will provide lots of sources detailing the various diseases carried by Foxes. I was also surprised just how serious it can be. You are quite wrong, many if not most Foxes suffer Mange and are the primary cause for infecting domestic pets. How could you possibly be so pro-Fox and not know this? In fact in some countries, foxes are a primary carrier of rabies. Fortunately this is not present in Ireland.

Rabies does not exist here.

Mange to quote "Sarcoptes scabiei var. canis can infect both foxes and domestic dogs. The disease can be fatal in foxes but can be easily treated in dogs."

Fox tapeworm can infect dogs but dogs need to be regularly wormed anyway.

Toxicara Canis is present in foxes but also in ever domestic dog unless it is wormed.

So Freddy hardly poses any additional disease risk that is not already there.

Discodog

mathepac wrote: »

Some of the other content of your post has been challenged elsewhere, but do you have any evidence for your statement above?

I would not want to put words into Sonnen's mouth but he may be confusing population with density. Dublin only has a fraction of the fox numbers of London but the density, ie number of foxes per sq mile is believed to be approaching London densities in a few areas.

But this seems to be based on guesswork. The fox population of London has been accurately determined. I am not aware of any study that has done the same in Dublin.

Sonnenblumen

Discodog wrote: »

So Freddy hardly poses any additional disease risk that is not already there.

Wrong again. Apart from the damage to gardens, potential threats include killing pets and a range of diseases which can affect humans (directly) and family pets and in turn affect humans (indirectly).

Fox faeces especially in gardens where there are young children is a serious health threat especially if there are no domestic animals present.

I have already acknowledged there is no rabies in Ireland, but in other countries where rabies is present, foxes are generally rabid.

Discodog

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Wrong again. Apart from the damage to gardens, potential threats include killing pets and a range of diseases which can affect humans (directly) and family pets and in turn affect humans (indirectly).

Fox faeces especially in gardens where there are young children is a serious health threat especially if there are no domestic animals present.

I have already acknowledged there is no rabies in Ireland, but in other countries where rabies is present, foxes are generally rabid.

Killing pets if they are left unsecured & no foxes do not normally kill cats. Yes fox faeces can be a minor risk as can dog faeces & cat faeces. If your garden is being visited by fox but never is visited by a dog or cat then your children could be a higher risk from toxicara. But they could also catch Vials disease from rats unless there is a fox or cat to get rid of them.

Even with the recent furore in London no one is suggesting that foxes pose a risk of infection.

flutered

Discodog wrote: »

No I haven't. Not after donkey's years of living in the country surrounded by foxes & sometimes working/rescuing them. Anyone who has ever seen any predator chasing fast moving prey knows that they have to kill quickly to avoid the prey running off. Foxes, like most carnivores, go for the throat which is why we find headless chickens.

Again like other predators foxes do not kill for fun. Few animals do with the domestic cat as one example in that it is not killing for food. Can you provide some evidence that a fox has skinned a Hare alive ?.

no i do not have video evidence, manys the time i have heard it, always nocturnal,
i have seen foxes running with turkeys , geese and chickens across their backs,
as i have spent the vast majority of my life traipsing both hill and dale so i must have an inkling as to the workings of wildlife,
op have you ever seen a she cat skinning a live frog to feed her young, it is usually the 1st meat that they taste.

Discodog

flutered wrote: »

no i do not have video evidence, manys the time i have heard it, always nocturnal,
i have seen foxes running with turkeys , geese and chickens across their backs,
as i have spent the vast majority of my life traipsing both hill and dale so i must have an inkling as to the workings of wildlife,
op have you ever seen a she cat skinning a live frog to feed her young, it is usually the 1st meat that they taste.

OK so no proof - why does that not surprise me & it happens at night just like the frog skinning !. So any other myths & old wives tales ?.

flutered

Discodog wrote: »

OK so no proof - why does that not surprise me & it happens at night just like the frog skinning !. So any other myths & old wives tales ?.

i never said that the frog skinning takes place at night, these are not myths nor old wives tales, i am in my 60s so i am not used to traipsing around with a camcorder, but then when i was lively no one had them, why can you not accept some ones word, not riddicule it.
as to it happening at night do not foxes do most of theis rambling at night also.
would you be one of the people who can see only one point of view your own.
btw outside my front door there are 15 acres with nothing in it only wildlife, and with just grass allowed to grow wild.

Discodog

I do not believe it because I have never seen it, heard of it, seen any written reference to it. It has nothing to do with you. If my best friend told me that he had been abducted by aliens I would not believe him. I too have spent my life in the countryside. I am constantly learning by observation & listening to others.

I often hear of country tales that are based on folklore or suspicion. Many relate to foxes. I have been lucky enough to spend time, in the field, with world respected fox experts & I have seen that most of the myths really are myths.

The fox suffers most because it is our largest predator. We killed off the Wolf & there are those who believe that the fox should suffer the same fate. I do not think that foxes pose any threat to gardeners & I would happily accept a little digging for the privilege of watching a wild animal.

CJhaughey

Discodog wrote: »

Killing pets if they are left unsecured & no foxes do not normally kill cats.

There was a study recently of Fox stomach contents and a large proportion of fox stomach contents is domestic cat.
Whether feral or domesticated is unknown but the fact remains that foxes can and do eat cats.

The Sweeper

CJhaughey wrote: »

There was a study recently of Fox stomach contents and a large proportion of fox stomach contents is domestic cat.
Whether feral or domesticated is unknown but the fact remains that foxes can and do eat cats.

CJ can you provide a link to that study, or any info on who conducted it or where it was conducted?

I find it impossible to source conclusive information on this question, but it's one that I get asked a lot (cat rescue stuff) so a reference would be useful.

Sonnenblumen

Discodog wrote: »

OK so no proof - why does that not surprise me & it happens at night just like the frog skinning !. So any other myths & old wives tales ?.

You must live a very closeted lifestyle, if and it is extraordinary you as country dweller has no experience/evidence/awareness of fox attacks on chicken, turkey etc etc.

In direct contrast, I am a city dweller but do spend a lot of time in West of Ireland! One need not travel far in eg Connemara to meet people who have suffered losses because of fox attacks.

Patently obvious you are in denial.

flutered

op please do not accuse me of supporting myths or old wives tales, if one lives in the country long enough one will hear and see things that the normal person will not, the reason some people like to learn and are observent, others cannot see the wood for the trees, i am not replying to any more of you posts as you have only one point of view, that is your own, which sometimes is misinformed, you remind me of a local co. cllr, who has 2 points of view his own and that of the party he repesents, in reatity then he has only one.

johngalway

You have three options as I see it.

Pest control company removes the foxes.
Attempt to get the neighbours to tidy up nextdoor in the hope they'll move on.
Fence in your property in such a way that foxes can't access it.

They see your property as part of their territory, which is why you are finding fox scat.

flutered

another way would be to install an electric fence, in the country they have great respect for them, i have no experience of urban foxes.
one can purchase anti fox electric fencing, i used it when i was rearing free range poultry of all descriptions, as this area always had an infestation of them.

johngalway

flutered wrote: »

another way would be to install an electric fence, in the country they have great respect for them, i have no experience of urban foxes.
one can purchase anti fox electric fencing, i used it when i was rearing free range poultry of all descriptions, as this area always had an infestation of them.

Electric fences are quite good. Though we don't know the situation of the property, an electric fence may not be kindly looked on by other neighbours.

Discodog

The Sweeper wrote: »

CJ can you provide a link to that study, or any info on who conducted it or where it was conducted?

I find it impossible to source conclusive information on this question, but it's one that I get asked a lot (cat rescue stuff) so a reference would be useful.

I too would love to see a link as this totally opposes all the studies that I have ever heard of. This study contradicts the view of foxes killing cats.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=19076577

However johngalway made the following comment in another thread:

" Foxes will eat cats, stomach contents in a study I contributed foxes to had domestic cat inside"

So maybe John can give us a link or at least some information as to who conducted the study & when so that we can look it up.

Of course foxes take chickens if the owners don't secure them properly. I kept chickens, ducks, & geese in the countryside for many years & never lost one to a fox.

I do not have one point of view. I research, I talk to experts & make my own observations. There are lots of myths regarding foxes. It is no different to farmers in the UK claiming that Red Kites were eating lambs (they were eating earthworms !) or Jackie Healy Rae claiming that White Tailed Eagles used to take babies from mother's arms.

Read The Complete Fox by Les Stocker - a man who has been around more foxes than any of us.

johngalway

Discodog wrote: »

" Foxes will eat cats, stomach contents in a study I contributed foxes to had domestic cat inside"

So maybe John can give us a link or at least some information as to who conducted the study & when so that we can look it up.

Contact NUIG, the Department of Zoology, two ish years back some students undertook a study of Neosporosis in Cattle and how it's spread. The Department will have the names of the students involved. One guy was responsible for the foxes, he sent the stomachs to another student who dissected them and examined the contents. The original student then sent me the results when he got them. He had an ID here, NeoResearcher I think it was, but I am not sure if that ID is active any longer as the study may have been completed.

Discodog

Thanks I have sent some emails. The biggest fox rescue in the UK which is also Europe's biggest wildlife hospital have carried out PM's on hundreds of foxes. As far as I know they have never found any evidence of cat predation.

Whilst finding cat bones in a fox would be evidence of it being eaten it might not mean that it was killed. By far the biggest cat killer is the motor car. I often see dead cats at the roadside - even one outside Argos in the City. These would provide an easy meal for a fox. The only way to know for sure would be a PM to determine if the cat has sustained fatal injuries consistent with a fox bite.

Sonnenblumen

Clearly some people take foxes much more seriously and consider the risks/damage associated with these animals:

"The threat of foxes to Tasmania is clearly an issue of great concern and every effort must be made to return Tasmania to a fox free status."


http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/WebPages/LBUN-5K43KE?open

The Sweeper

To be fair, you can't really compare Tasmania, an ecosystem that was isolated for millions of years and is now suffering at the hands of an introduced species, with Ireland, where foxes are native. The fox watch programmes in Tasmania and Victoria are designed to monitor fox numbers because of the damage they're doing to native wildlife (and in rural areas particularly, to domestic fowl populations).

They're capable of the same damage in Ireland, certainly, but the indigenous Irish wildlife population has developed side by side with the red fox for thousands of years and is more suited to withstanding spikes and troughs in fox numbers.

(For the five years we lived in Woking, we'd notice, year in and year out, the rise in the rabbit population, immediately followed by a rise in the fox population, and then the decline in same.)

Interesting to see that in the 'dangers to domestic animals' section on the Tasmanian page, there is no mention of foxes attacking and eating cats as a primary food source.

(Then again this could also be because Tasmania's fragile ecosystem is suffering at the hands of the cat too, another introduced species, so they don't give a monkeys if the foxes eat the cats... )

Cabaal

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Clearly some people take foxes much more seriously and consider the risks/damage associated with these animals:

"The threat of foxes to Tasmania is clearly an issue of great concern and every effort must be made to return Tasmania to a fox free status."

http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/WebPages/LBUN-5K43KE?open

Completely unrelated to this thread, a fox is a invasive species to that part of the work in much the same fashion as rabbits are

So your point is...well completely pointless

As mentioned above cats also have massively affected that part of the world, I guess we should also kill any loose cats in Ireland and also restrict ownership of them due to the massive amount of wildlife they kill

Sonnenblumen

The Sweeper wrote: »

To be fair, you can't really compare Tasmania, an ecosystem that was isolated for millions of years and is now suffering at the hands of an introduced species, with Ireland, where foxes are native. The fox watch programmes in Tasmania and Victoria are designed to monitor fox numbers because of the damage they're doing to native wildlife (and in rural areas particularly, to domestic fowl populations).

They're capable of the same damage in Ireland, certainly, but the indigenous Irish wildlife population has developed side by side with the red fox for thousands of years and is more suited to withstanding spikes and troughs in fox numbers.

(For the five years we lived in Woking, we'd notice, year in and year out, the rise in the rabbit population, immediately followed by a rise in the fox population, and then the decline in same.)

Interesting to see that in the 'dangers to domestic animals' section on the Tasmanian page, there is no mention of foxes attacking and eating cats as a primary food source.

(Then again this could also be because Tasmania's fragile ecosystem is suffering at the hands of the cat too, another introduced species, so they don't give a monkeys if the foxes eat the cats... )

Of course the fox was inroduced into Tasmania, but the consequences are similar to other 'native' environments. Not sure I would agree that Tasmania's ecosystem would differ that much from comparable isolated regions of Ireland, eg Connemara, Donegal, Kerry etc. I would imagine that foxes in Hobart are pretty similar to most other urban environments?

Agree rabbits and rodents are also on the list of local problems, but drought and intensive monoculture farming are probably having more impact?

Sonnenblumen

Cabaal wrote: »

Completely unrelated to this thread, a fox is a invasive species to that part of the work in much the same fashion as rabbits are

So your point is...well completely pointless

As mentioned above cats also have massively affected that part of the world, I guess we should also kill any loose cats in Ireland and also restrict ownership of them due to the massive amount of wildlife they kill

On the contrary your point is naieve in that it ignores the damage caused by the foxes etc irrespective of origin. As for cats, well most are domesticated and well catered for. AFAIK wild cats are culled? Besides why are you and others attempting to railroad the focus off topic? If you have an alternative view/concern, start a kitty thread!

The Sweeper

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Of course the fox was inroduced into Tasmania, but the consequences are similar to other 'native' environments. Not sure I would agree that Tasmania's ecosystem would differ that much from comparable isolated regions of Ireland, eg Connemara, Donegal, Kerry etc. I would imagine that foxes in Hobart are pretty similar to most other urban environments?

Agree rabbits and rodents are also on the list of local problems, but drought and intensive monoculture farming are probably having more impact?

Well, Australia/Tasmania are now dealing with various introduced species problems through culls. Trapping, shooting, hunting with dogs, posioning, introducing diseases, so on, so forth.

However, culling native animals is now illegal.

A good comparison for Australia versus Ireland and the fox, as opposed to the fox in Oz, would be the possum. Possums are a native animal that, in a suburban environment, can become a real pest. People feed them, and they scavenge the environment we generate - if it's not the bins, it's the petfood; if it's not the petfood, it's the plants in the garden. They can get into the roof of your house to nest, and they'll pretty much wreck the place up there.

You can't shoot them or poison them; and if you trap them to relocate them it's tantamount to a death sentence because they're highly territorial and you're releasing them into another possum's territory (and that's illegal too).

The solution with possums is to capitalise on their natural tendancies. Build possum boxes and have them nest away from your house instead of in your roof. Provide a food source away from the area you want to protect. Use outdoor lights at night to put them off coming into certain spaces. There are spray deterrents you can also use to keep them away.

Education is important, but laws are the basis of how the possum issue is now controlled. Australia took a long time, relatively, to change its laws to protect its native animals - and a hell of a lot of damage was done - and is still being done - in the meantime. It looks like Ireland needs to start a campaign of education regarding the fox, to make the urban environment less attractive to them.

If it's not done large scale, then you're fighting a losing battle because I can only imagine that foxes will behave just like any other animal. If you remove an animal from an attractive territory, and make no further changes other than having removed the animal, it won't take long before another animal of the same species moves into that attractive territory.

Sonnenblumen

I visited Tasmania earlier this year where I spent some time in 2 quite remote National Parks (Freycinet and Cradle Mountain). Both are strictly supervised by Park Rangers, who can appear to strict animal and environment police.

Anyways, despite close monitoring, constant reminders, and signs everywhere advising vistors not to feed the animals, most of which appeared to be nocturnal. This had no effect as the accomodation areas where over run by a variety of night furry creatures mainly possums. In fact they were such a nuisance in Freycinet, pestering for food, squabbling with each another etc etc, people had to go indoors to avoid the rumpus.

Nothwithstanding that possums do what possums do in their local habitat, their behaviour reminded me more of rats. There was no evidence of any local predator, but I really do not see the point of protecting such an animal in any urbanised environment.

There were other ridiciulous examples where the authorities in urban areas, placed animal welfare ahead of people welfare. Quite shocking and contradictory.

Discodog

OP: To get back on topic what puzzles me is why you are going to such lengths to try & prove that foxes pose a danger to the residents of Ireland ?. You have to decide how your deal with your foxes & you came here for advice but it seems that your mind was already set.

If you have decided to kill, remove etc then surely the hunting forum would be a better place to gain advice. I personally find it disappointing that someone who works with nature, all day long, cannot find a bit of space & tolerance for a work of nature. As gardeners we learn how to adapt nature to suit out purpose for example in the way that we adapt plants.

You will have more fox encounters. If you kill these then others will take their place. You don't have to like them but maybe you could ignore or tolerate them & accept that have a right to exist. Could it be that you want to prove that they pose a risk in order to justify killing them ?. If so I would say that you have failed.

gary29428

I think this thread has a few pro/anti bloodsport vibes running through it, the origional post was looking for advice and not a discusion about what foxes may or may not be doing. I have a huge amount of experience dealing with problem foxes (mainly in a non-urban environment) and my advice is get rid. They are a menice and classed as vermin by the wildlfe act in this country, that means they are affored no class of protection under the law. My advice is see if you can contact anybody from a local gun club, they generally would have a lot experience dealing with foxes.

bette

Phone the SPCA, simple as! I did that recently when a ferret ran into the house. I trapped it with a bird cage and the chap was around in about 20 minutes!

Cabaal

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

On the contrary your point is naieve in that it ignores the damage caused by the foxes etc irrespective of origin. As for cats, well most are domesticated and well catered for. AFAIK wild cats are culled? Besides why are you and others attempting to railroad the focus off topic? If you have an alternative view/concern, start a kitty thread!

First off, I'd remind you to not back seat mod

Second off, simply giving an example of an animal that has a massive affect on the enviroment yet thousands of people own, look after them and feed them (a cat).

Comparing fox's in Tasmania to fox's in Ireland it pointless and s an attempt to mislead people

Discodog

gary29428 wrote: »

I think this thread has a few pro/anti bloodsport vibes running through it, the origional post was looking for advice and not a discusion about what foxes may or may not be doing. I have a huge amount of experience dealing with problem foxes (mainly in a non-urban environment) and my advice is get rid. They are a menice and classed as vermin by the wildlfe act in this country, that means they are affored no class of protection under the law. My advice is see if you can contact anybody from a local gun club, they generally would have a lot experience dealing with foxes.

So you would clearly be pro bloodsports & you are also deciding the worth of foxes - hardly a measured independent view. Vermin is a great catch all phrase that is rolled out by those who derive pleasure from killing wildlife. An animal is only "vermin" because we have dictated so. It does not mean that "vermin" have no value in the ecosystem. I have never met a "problem" fox. Do you only kill "problem foxes" or any fox that happens to get in your sights ?.

I wonder which poses the most potential danger, an urban fox or a guy with a rifle in an urban environment ?.

Qualitymark

Getting back to the point of the thread (which might get interesting answers in the Animal and Pet Issues forum, by the way), what about installing some motion-sensitive sprinklers? These go on automatically if they sense an animal moving near them, and normally solve the problem of cats using your garden as a loo - I suspect they'd do the same for foxes.

gary29428

Discodog, I ain't going to rise to it so don't waste your time. Tell the lad who lost all 22 of his laying hens last week that the fox was not a "problem", he ate the heads off 7 and left the rest. Anyway like I said I take care of problem foxs for people and that one ain't a problem any more...

Sonnenblumen

Cabaal wrote: »

First off, I'd remind you to not back seat mod

Second off, simply giving an example of an animal that has a massive affect on the enviroment yet thousands of people own, look after them and feed them (a cat).

Comparing fox's in Tasmania to fox's in Ireland it pointless and s an attempt to mislead people

I only wish I could understand what point(s) you're trying to make?:(

Most posters seem to have a better grasp of why I started this thread, and dare I say again, even modest research will reveal that fundamental fox behaviour is quite similar.