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Tax Exiles who pay "Voluntary Tax"

  • 07-07-2010 06:32PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭


    What are people's opinions on tax exiles that do charitable causes in lieu of paying tax? It has been in the news recently with JP McManus's ProAm event.

    Obviously this event raises several million for Limerick charities and the local economy which is great. But McManus is being praised for splashing money around in organising these events, which in truth is only a small fraction of what he should be paying in tax.

    I'd prefer if he payed his taxes to be honest, he can still organise these charity events but he shouldn't be allowed claim Irish citizenship in my opinion as he doesn't pay tax here.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    since when is citizenship based on paying taxes?

    with that line of thinking we should revoke passports from half of the workforce and 400K unemployed and give out passports to half of east europe


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    OP needs to look up the meaning of tax avoidance. There is no obligation morally or otherwise to pay a cent more then he legally needs to do.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    I would reckon that JP does more good by giving the charities money than by giving it to the Government to waste on quangos and expenses.

    That said, I did read today that Bertie Ahern was at the Pro-Am, and my opinion of JP has dropped as a result.

    He's a great man (JP) but he should distance himself from con-men.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Liam Byrne wrote: »

    That said, I did read today that Bertie Ahern was at the Pro-Am, and my opinion of JP has dropped as a result.

    He's a great man (JP) but he should distance himself from con-men.

    It's a charity event.
    To be fair he doesn't control who buys tickets and if he knew, he couldn't exactly get event security to bar people who would cause no trouble there.

    He is a great man, does a lot for Limerick, I wouldn't let that change my opinion of him.
    Realy, he was probably unaware who attended or not, sure most politicians in Limerick would have showed up too.


    OP, JP McManus doesn't pay tax he isn't liable for, it's tax avoidance.
    Do you write a cheque to revenue for tax you don't owe?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    silverharp wrote: »
    OP needs to look up the meaning of tax avoidance. There is no obligation morally or otherwise to pay a cent more then he legally needs to do.

    What I find objectionable is that he is not legally required to pay tax.
    ... To be fair he doesn't control who buys tickets and if he knew, he couldn't exactly get event security to bar people who would cause no trouble there....

    My guess is that Bertie didn't have to buy a ticket.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,612 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I have a real problem with tax exiles being lauded as "great Irishmen".

    Being rich should not be an excuse not to contribute. If someone earning 50k can pay a large proportion of their income in tax, why shouldn't the person earning 5 million?

    Sure, our government is incompetent and would no doubt squander the money, however, in terms of systems, there's right and wrong. If we aim to have an equal country where one's rights are the same regardless of one's wealth (and I believe we should), I should be just as entitled to decide where my contribution to society is spent as JP McManus (i.e. we should both only be able to influence this by our vote).

    I believe anyone who spends more than 504 hours (a total of 3 weeks) or are present in this country during 60 calender days of the year should be paying their income tax here. Our tax system should not allow people to opt out once they can afford to use midnight flights in their private jet to get back to Monaco or Switzerland when they only have properties there in order to avoid doing their civic duty.

    Say what you like about Michael O' Leary, at least he pays his tax here despite having Europe's largest fleet of aircraft at his disposal should he wish to avoid it.

    McManus isn't a great man. He's a very rich one who manipulates our tax system to avoid paying his fair share and uses his famous (and influential) friends to greatly highlight his contributions to charity he does make in order to look like the great emperor for giving the table scraps to the serfs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,427 ✭✭✭ressem


    Why personalise the issue?

    Is it your wish that the government should change the Irish tax law and double taxation agreements with the various countries to be more like the setup of the US?

    As I understand it US residents around the world have to file tax returns describing their income regardless of origin, and to pay tax on that income to the US government?
    They then apply for tax credits against tax they have already paid in another state to reduce double taxation.

    (Try to rope in the Saudis that CJ gave the passports to?)
    In Ireland, the law is that non-doms are taxed only on income they bring into the country. So 'should be paying' is incorrect.

    Or have you another tax model in mind?

    Btw limiting the discussion to JP McManus brings out his many defenders and doesn't advance the discussion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    ressem wrote: »
    ... Is it your wish that the government should change the Irish tax law and double taxation agreements with the various countries to be more like the setup of the US?
    ...
    Or have you another tax model in mind? ...

    It used to be the case that anybody who was resident in Ireland in a particular year was liable for tax here. With the application of double taxation agreements, the net effect was generally that the individual paid some tax here, and some in the other jurisdiction(s).

    What has changed is the criterion for residency. In the past, if a person had a home here, and spent as little as one night in it, he or she was deemed resident for the year. Now our tax exiles can spend far more time here, and some virtually commute between here and a tax haven in their private planes. It's a farce, and one that I dislike greatly. Somebody who has a home here, spends enough time here to run a business, and has enough social contacts here to hit the gossip pages of the papers, should be considered to be living here and liable for tax here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭btard


    JP is too rich and powerful to pay tax. There will always be an elite who are above the normal rules that govern the rest of us. In fact, they make the rules. The 'charity' events and political contributions enable him to buy goodwill and carry on making his billions off us. You will never hear a bad word said about him by a politician or in the general media. Don't let it bother you too much, it's the way of the world. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 569 ✭✭✭boodlesdoodles


    I'm from Limerick and I have absolutely no problem with JP paying only what he owes, he's following the letter of the law. That said, he has done so much for the local community you'd have been waiting 100 years for the government to do it. Every single penny from the Pro-am went to local charities, all the workers gave their time for free and the uplift it gave to the city and county this week has been incredible. Fair play to him I say and long may he be a generous man.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,612 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    So long as you understand that his actions make your taxes higher / the budget deficit higher / public service provision lower, you're entitled to your opinion.

    I'd rather live in a country where the elected government can decide whether it's more important to pay for an extra cancer consultant than for some kids from south hill to get a free ride through UL than leave their rich mates.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    In Ireland, charities have often stepped in to do the work that the state has failed to provision for since the very foundation. So in that sense, I think we need to maintain a strong charitable sector, because our government's sure don't seem to be much smarter than they used to be.

    On the other front, he pays as much tax as he is obligated to, and not a penny more or less. The same as the rest of us. Even then, the richest pay more than their fair share in taxes in general.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    ... Even then, the richest pay more than their fair share in taxes in general.

    There is room to argue about what amounts to a fair share.

    Some of the really wealthy pay almost no tax.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,062 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    It's a charity event.
    To be fair he doesn't control who buys tickets and if he knew, he couldn't exactly get event security to bar people who would cause no trouble there.

    He is a great man, does a lot for Limerick, I wouldn't let that change my opinion of him.
    Realy, he was probably unaware who attended or not, sure most politicians in Limerick would have showed up too.


    OP, JP McManus doesn't pay tax he isn't liable for, it's tax avoidance.
    Do you write a cheque to revenue for tax you don't owe?

    bang on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,062 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    There is room to argue about what amounts to a fair share.

    Some of the really wealthy pay almost no tax.

    here we go


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    There is room to argue about what amounts to a fair share.

    Some of the really wealthy pay almost no tax.
    It's a fact of life. The really rich can afford to just move elsewhere if they feel like it. But having them around brings in investment in jobs and other benefits.

    The uber-rich cannot be taxed fully without sending them away, and that is cutting off your nose to spite your face.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    What has changed is the criterion for residency. In the past, if a person had a home here, and spent as little as one night in it, he or she was deemed resident for the year. .

    Sorry can you back this part up with some reference please as it doesn't make sense


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    There is room to argue about what amounts to a fair share.

    Some of the really wealthy pay almost no tax.

    When you are poor you work for money

    When you are rich money works for you

    its that simple


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Sorry can you back this part up with some reference please as it doesn't make sense

    What do you mean it doesn't make sense? Forty years ago, if you had a home here and spent even one night in it, you were deemed resident for tax purposes in that year.

    I can't find a convenient citation (it was pre-internet, after all) but I know it from experience.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    ...
    When you are rich money works for you ...

    It might be better, in this context, to say that if you are rich politicians work for you.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    It might be better, in this context, to say that if you are rich politicians work for you.

    You missed what the saying really gets at


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    What do you mean it doesn't make sense? Forty years ago, if you had a home here and spent even one night in it, you were deemed resident for tax purposes in that year.

    I can't find a convenient citation (it was pre-internet, after all) but I know it from experience.


    sorry I'm not calling you a liar or anything like that i just don't think the tax residency law was ever that strict - ever but I could be wrong which is why I asked for back up

    The reason is that I have plenty of relatives who have owned Irish properties for many many years whilst living in UK and they never paid Irish tax simply because they stayed in these properties. If memory service me right i think it went from 80 nights per annum to 182 nights per annum

    I do know that the residency law was relaxed a bit but as far as i am aware it is still fairly standard with how most countries implement their tax residency (apart from US)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    One thing I find highly distasteful is the socialist attitude that the masses are somehow entitled to a slice of our most wealthy citizens' money. Just last week, I heard a pair of guys moaning in the pub about how Bono should be made pay super high rates of taxes because he earns millions. What Bono has is his and no one is entitled to a penny of his wealth save himself, it's his.

    If I had millions, I'd live as a tax exile but I would hand out some help as I saw fit. My own thing would be supporting music and the arts which is lacking here. If, for any reason, I needed to avail of something like hospital treatment or any other service that taxes pay for then I would make a suitable donation as payment. I would not however, share my money to fund the "entitlements" of the masses.

    Begrudging the wealthy seems to be a popular pass time these days but let me tell any bitter people something; people who make themselves millions don't do it by whinging over a pint.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    One thing I find highly distasteful is the socialist attitude that the masses are somehow entitled to a slice of our most wealthy citizens' money. Just last week, I heard a pair of guys moaning in the pub about how Bono should be made pay super high rates of taxes because he earns millions. What Bono has is his and no one is entitled to a penny of his wealth save himself, it's his.

    If I had millions, I'd live as a tax exile but I would hand out some help as I saw fit. My own thing would be supporting music and the arts which is lacking here. If, for any reason, I needed to avail of something like hospital treatment or any other service that taxes pay for then I would make a suitable donation as payment. I would not however, share my money to fund the "entitlements" of the masses.

    Begrudging the wealthy seems to be a popular pass time these days but let me tell any bitter people something; people who make themselves millions don't do it by whinging over a pint.

    I would never begrudge someone successful their hard earned wealth, however being based here while paying no tax is not an equitable situation. I assume JP drives on our roads, makes use of our justice system, possibly our education system for his children, gets his water provided for, benefits from subsidised food and everything else that people take for granted but must be paid for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    sorry I'm not calling you a liar or anything like that i just don't think the tax residency law was ever that strict - ever but I could be wrong which is why I asked for back up

    The reason is that I have plenty of relatives who have owned Irish properties for many many years whilst living in UK and they never paid Irish tax simply because they stayed in these properties. If memory service me right i think it went from 80 nights per annum to 182 nights per annum

    I do know that the residency law was relaxed a bit but as far as i am aware it is still fairly standard with how most countries implement their tax residency (apart from US)

    I suspect that they simply didn't think of telling the Revenue Commissioners about their situation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    One thing I find highly distasteful is the socialist attitude that the masses are somehow entitled to a slice of our most wealthy citizens' money. Just last week, I heard a pair of guys moaning in the pub about how Bono should be made pay super high rates of taxes because he earns millions. What Bono has is his and no one is entitled to a penny of his wealth save himself, it's his.

    If I had millions, I'd live as a tax exile but I would hand out some help as I saw fit. My own thing would be supporting music and the arts which is lacking here. If, for any reason, I needed to avail of something like hospital treatment or any other service that taxes pay for then I would make a suitable donation as payment. I would not however, share my money to fund the "entitlements" of the masses.

    Begrudging the wealthy seems to be a popular pass time these days but let me tell any bitter people something; people who make themselves millions don't do it by whinging over a pint.

    You might find distasteful the expectation that the wealthy be taxed: I find it distasteful that some of them pay less tax than I do.

    If you make your millions, feel free to run away to a tax haven. But do it decently: stay out of Irish public affairs; do not maintain a house here and pretend that you live elsewhere; just stay away.

    And don't expect me to feel grateful (or even impressed) if you sponsor a string quartet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    One thing I find highly distasteful is the socialist attitude that the masses are somehow entitled to a slice of our most wealthy citizens' money. Just last week, I heard a pair of guys moaning in the pub about how Bono should be made pay super high rates of taxes because he earns millions. What Bono has is his and no one is entitled to a penny of his wealth save himself, it's his.


    Begrudging the wealthy seems to be a popular pass time these days but let me tell any bitter people something; people who make themselves millions don't do it by whinging over a pint.


    My problem is the praise they get for it. People on this forum have been praising JP for his charity work but it is only a fraction of what his taxes could do. There also seems to be an assumption that he cannot continue his charity work and pay taxes in Ireland.

    Bono goes around the world basically saying people should pay more tax, and this money should be used by governments to reduce 3rd world debt. Yet, while he is saying everyone else should pay more tax, he does his best to pay less tax. He moves his money out of a country which was donating a high proportion of its GNP to 3rd world projects when it was decided people like him who were allowed pay very little tax (compared to the rest of us) should pay a little more. This is hipocrosy and should be exposed.
    RichardAnd wrote: »
    If I had millions, I'd live as a tax exile but I would hand out some help as I saw fit. My own thing would be supporting music and the arts which is lacking here. If, for any reason, I needed to avail of something like hospital treatment or any other service that taxes pay for then I would make a suitable donation as payment. I would not however, share my money to fund the "entitlements" of the masses.

    Why should you be entitled to do this because you have millions but not if you only have thousands? Why can't I pay no tax and then decide who gets money. If I get good service in a hospital perhaps I could give them a few quid, donate to the arts as I see fit? How come you feel it is acceptable for rich people to do this but not the rest of us?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    We're forgetting: How much wealth do these people create? Through jobs, enterprise, etc? Funnily enough, the government is probably the least efficient bunch of people you want to be handing large sums of money over to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Personally I think the very well off should be paying tax but not an extorniate super tax - the same rates as i am paying would be good

    But if the tax rules allow them to live in Bermuda for half the year without paying Irish tax then so be it, them is the rules - they are not breaking any laws or doing anything illegal, if i had the money i'd do the same

    what the rules could do is say that for every night you are in Ireland you pay tax - so if JP (as he seems to be affectionately called on here by the Limerick possy) is here at the races for say 73 nights a years, then if his total tax bill for the year was say 10m then he would pay 2m in tax


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    I suspect that they simply didn't think of telling the Revenue Commissioners about their situation.

    No I suspect they didn't have to for the length of time they were staying in Ireland per annum

    You are going to have to back up your arguement about 1 night


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