How Can I chase Eircom for Broadband

yop

Folks
I am starting a remote contract so I need wired broadband that isn't effected by the weather as the wireless is in my location.

I put in an eircom line there 5 years ago and at the time we couldn't get BB. Exchange wasn't enabled.
2 years ago we disconnected due to money flow.

So anyway, last nite with all the next Gen BB etc I thought must see if we can get that here now.

I live 4 miles out the Westport Road in Castlebar, so near enough a major town.

But fup me, I checked the line (using the number next door) and guess what product they recommend!! WIRELESS!!!!

So my Q is, any idea why in the name of God I can't get broadband and how can I chase these down?

I know its a broad (no pun intended) question but I hope someone can point me in the right direction.

Regards

jor el

You can't. At 4 miles out of a town, your line length is probably longer again (if exchange is central) so you've no hope of DSL, even if the exchange is enabled. If it's a case of poor line, eircom will do nothing to fix it, and no one can make them.

Sad fact, but fact none the less.

A decent wireless connection, like Digiweb Metro, is not effected by weather conditions, and would be suitable. Check to see what's available, which may mean contacting every provider you can think of. Westnet might be worth looking at, see if they have you covered.

yop

jor el wrote: »

You can't. At 4 miles out of a town, your line length is probably longer again (if exchange is central) so you've no hope of DSL, even if the exchange is enabled. If it's a case of poor line, eircom will do nothing to fix it, and no one can make them.

Sad fact, but fact none the less.

A decent wireless connection, like Digiweb Metro, is not effected by weather conditions, and would be suitable. Check to see what's available, which may mean contacting every provider you can think of. Westnet might be worth looking at, see if they have you covered.

Thanks very much for that, that is some heap though what you saying that they can "do" this. Funny as my parents live 7 miles from the nearest town and can but will never us BB, and when I lived out there I used to think that if I only lived near a big town I would be sorted! :rolleyes:

Currently with Westnet but over the last week or so I am having a lot of issues with connection, which when I will be working from home isn't good enough. I will see what happens with that but I was curious to see if Eircom can be tugged along to provide BB.

Seems not!

Thanks

jor el

yop wrote: »

Funny as my parents live 7 miles from the nearest town and can but will never us BB, and when I lived out there I used to think that if I only lived near a big town I would be sorted!

All depends on where the exchange is, and some of them are in the middle of nowhere (not in major towns). If your line is on one that's over 4 miles away, then you're never going to get DSL on it. That's simply too far, and eircom can't do anything about that. If you are close enough to get it, but failing for some reason, then there's nothing they will do.

10belowzero

hi yop - why not try talking to eircom rep on the eircom net support forum , you will find it on the eircom net support homepage - it might be worth a shot - i 'm an eircom tech , have to say that the pre -qual test that is used to test line's should have been dumped along with babcock n brown -it's bloody useless - tech's on the ground are never asked about b/band provision on these line's - or ask a local eircom tech , that know's the area.

yop

Update on this that the Westnet lads rang me this evening, these lads work late!!

They have made a number of changes so please God this will sort me out. In all fairness to them I am with them for the last 3 or 4 years and this is the first time I had major issues, typical in timing that I would play up while I was starting remote work but hopefully I will be telling Eircom that I don't really care lol

10belowzero - Thanks very much for that, I appreciate the heads up on that.

yuloni

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yop

I know what u are saying. Hard to gauge. I know that people at 3 miles have broadband, but they are on the main road.
We are down a secondary road, about 1/2 mile off the main road.

watty

Condi wrote: »

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Unusually good lines
No crosstalk
ADSL2+ exchange not original ADSL.

What is your line attenuation? On regular DSL you would be lucky to have 1Mbps at 6miles.

I'm not saying impossible, but on the very edge of possible. Maybe they used Cat5e not usual Cat3 or maybe the line goes across fields or to a very rare fibre cabinet.

Sponge Bob

They seem to have doubled up on pairs ( pseudo bonded) for Condi...who in fairness lives as close to the end of eircoms network as is possible from what I remember.

Would that be because most of the houses where you live are holiday homes Condi so they have lots of spare copper ??

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They seem to have doubled up on pairs ( pseudo bonded) for Condi...who in fairness lives as close to the end of eircoms network as is possible from what I remember.

Simply paralleling pairs won't work very well, it may 1/2 the attenuation, but doubles the capacitance.

maybe they add some other HW to it?

Sponge Bob

Maybe condi could look in the router management pages to see whether the connection is G.998 or G.995 or G.DMT

watty

If it's really 3Mbps @ 9.6km (6 miles), it suggests the NBS is rubbish waste of money and the problem is eircom's Debt.

Still, the time for DSL nationwide was 6 to 8 years ago. Now we need to plan for fibre.

10belowzero

hi yop , is your own , home phone line disconnected at pres? using a neighbour's line for a test is no real indicator , have you rang eircom , i would not really go with the b/band checker , my self , if your line is not activated , they may activate it long enough to test for b/band ,it's also possible that after 2 year's your line has been taken for use else where , which would require getting a new line installed.you won't know unless you ask.for those who are having speed issue's and reckon they have a dodgy line (distance , etc) or '' low attainable's'' as we call them , call eircomnet and ask them , to get a broadband tech( that's me) out to check for '' low attainable's '' , we do these check's daily , for cust's who are having problem's , i've seen 95% improvements and for some other line's there's just nothing that can be done , our cut off is , if we can't acheive a stable 1mb to the customer's modem, having said that , have seen 2mb at over 8kl out , hth's - cya

ingen

watty wrote: »

Unusually good lines
No crosstalk
ADSL2+ exchange not original ADSL.

What is your line attenuation? On regular DSL you would be lucky to have 1Mbps at 6miles.

I'm not saying impossible, but on the very edge of possible. Maybe they used Cat5e not usual Cat3 or maybe the line goes across fields or to a very rare fibre cabinet.

thats the thing, i have heard that eircom wont put a line on adsl2+ unless it is capable of 12mb+... but i have also heard info contradicting this too...

10belowzero

hi ingen , you could be right in some smaller exch's , but in general , say if you apply for b/band to day , you are allocated the next advailable port's on the rack's currently being used in that exch ,for no other reason , than the existing rack's are at full use and capacity.
as a tech , i don't discriminate between adsl 1+2 (as the operational criteria remain the same for me) , a lot of people say adsl 1 is really adsl 2 , maxed out to it's limit and are prob right to a certain extent.
adsl 2 won't really make a difference to say someone on a 2mb line , because if you can't get 7mb on adsl1 , you won't on adsl2 ( although contention etc is a hell of a lot better).
as i've said before here adsl2 , will be the standard entry point for cust's @8mb and wanting up to 24mb , untill the real ngb is rolled out and then all cust's will be migrated to full ngb in time.
as i've often said , in comm's, issue's , are never what they seem , test's , stat's etc , to an experienced tech are never what they seem, and never taken as gospel per say, (because they can make a terrible liar out of you), in tech term's , we do err on the side of caution, but getting result's is a combination of tech knowledge + engineering skill's , interpetation of all the various test's we conduct and the result's they produce and at time's , pure coincedential good luck(how could someone's fridge/freezer intefere with their b/band), that's a story i'll tell you again - hth's - tnk's , ps ingen , did you get your upgrade?

watty

ingen wrote: »

thats the thing, i have heard that eircom wont put a line on adsl2+ unless it is capable of 12mb+... but i have also heard info contradicting this too...

NO

The criteria is purely what is available in the exchange.
See
http://www.techtir.ie/comms/dsl-limits


For the SAME line ADSL2+ can always give more speed, but the amount more is less and less the poorer and/or longer the line is.

Some exchanges may have a mix, but most will be either plain old ADSL or newer ADSL2+

Red line labelled Telstra maybe some sort of multichannel ISDN, I'm not sure. Either "full" speed or doesn't work is characteristic of ISDN.
Blue line is regular DSL ADSL, max 8Mbps close to exchange.
Green Line is ADSL2+, max 24Mbps close to exchange, beyond 50dB to 70dB it's similar to ADSL, beyond 70dB it follows the yellow/orange line, giving 0.5Mbps to 1Mbps for a few more km.

Ignore the orange/yellow line. We don't have that anywhere.

VDSL as used in the Fibre trial starts at about 100Mbps and drops to 10Mbps to 20Mbps at 800m and by 3km (average Irish line length) is similar to ADSL2+

At 8km you are reaching the limit (0.5Mbps to 1Mbps). but only about 10% to 15% of lines are actually longer than 8km. So Condi is on some special arrangement. There is such a thing as a DSL "repeater" or DSL Reach as BT calls them. BT uses them and they will give 3Mbps @ 8km and maybe near 1Mbps at 12km to 16km.

Those curves are attenuation, so aluminium cable shorter distance than regular copper Cat3 and Cat5e (not likely on phone cables) a longer distance. Noise and/or crosstalk (more DSL users in multipair from exchange to local cabinet) reduces speed up to 1/2. Those are the most optimistic curves vs attenuation.

10belowzero

hi watty , spot on , in a nutshell , however say if someone in on 7mb on asdl 1 ( as i am ) , but want say 24mb on adsl2 , and it is advailable in the exch , there ''should'' be no problem in that being done, but it does require the line been physically taken off the adsl 1 rack's and moved on too the adsl 2 rack's in the exch , which may take up to a day or so , tkn's

watty

It's very unusual I think to have both in exchange. You may simply be on a lower than possible package.

Unless you are so close that you can count the flies on the wall, you'll not get 24Mbps. Maybe 14Mbps to 20Mbps.

ingen

watty wrote: »

It's very unusual I think to have both in exchange. You may simply be on a lower than possible package.

Unless you are so close that you can count the flies on the wall, you'll not get 24Mbps. Maybe 14Mbps to 20Mbps.

hi folks well my line is 3.7 to 4km in length, as clean as you can get, ie no extensions main eircom socket is directly off the eircom black cable, no internal cabling in the loop at all.

my modem is rock solid at 51db down and 31db up.
dsl noise margin is 12db down and 21db up.

when i lift the phone i hear perfect dial tone no cracking or noise at all.

i still get the same stats when i have the dsl modem directly into the socket with no filter ( and no phone plugged in)

i wonder is there any to improve what speeds i get on the line?

ingen

watty wrote: »

It's very unusual I think to have both in exchange. You may simply be on a lower than possible package.

Unless you are so close that you can count the flies on the wall, you'll not get 24Mbps. Maybe 14Mbps to 20Mbps.

i was told that my exchange is ADSL2+ enabled a good while now

10belowzero

hi watty , it's not unusual to have both in the exch's , but you are right , if they say up to 24mb ,given distance ,stat's etc , for most user's like you say ,15/20 mb's could be expected , unless you live outside the exch front door,having said that , i have not done any maintenance on any line's above 7/8 mb , where i am , so i won't really know untill i start getting them to investigate, that said i'd support , all you said , you can join my team anyday - fair play to you , cya

watty

ingen wrote: »

i was told that my exchange is ADSL2+ enabled a good while now

Aye, but you are further away = lower speed.

I was estimating what 7Mbps on basic ADSL might be if the user was swapped to ADSL2+

10belowzero wrote: »

, you can join my team anyday -

I think they want to reduce staff, not take on extras.

Sponge Bob

10Below, do you know anything about recent exchanges not getting ADSL2+ gear or not being marketed for ADSL2+ package even if the gear is there. Is eircom putting older ADSL1 gear into some of these???

These are all sub 600 line rural exchanges.

yuloni

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Sponge Bob

"Modulation DMT" , normal ADSL1 that should be.

ingen

Condi wrote: »

Sorry for only getting on now. Here's the stats:

Line State: Up
Modulation: DMT
[/QUOTE]

ok so its standard DSL
his attenuation is very very very high!

yuloni

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Sponge Bob

ingen wrote: »

his attenuation is very very very high!

As would be expected when he said the exchange was 6 miles away

watty

OK, 3Mbps didn't make any sense without a repeater.

1.5Mbps is actually not bad for 9.6km and > 64dB attenuation!

At that distance and speed on ADSL it's probably closer to 70dB attenuation. Which won't really be much faster at ADSL2+



ADSL2+ lets you get about 10db further out, about 88dB or so for 1Mbps. ADSL dies at about 76db to 78dB.

http://www.techtir.ie/comms/dsl-limits

Don't install comtrend or homeplug powerline networking!

yuloni

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watty

Powerline adaptors use the same band as DSL and radiate interference up to 100m from house.

BT vision is installing them against the recomendation of BT engineering!
See http://www.techtir.ie/node/1001843
some of the newer ones now interfere with Mobile Radio, FM Radio and Airtraffic control, not just DSL, MW, SW and Amateur Radio.

ingen

watty wrote: »

OK, 3Mbps didn't make any sense without a repeater.

1.5Mbps is actually not bad for 9.6km and > 64dB attenuation!

At that distance and speed on ADSL it's probably closer to 70dB attenuation. Which won't really be much faster at ADSL2+



ADSL2+ lets you get about 10db further out, about 88dB or so for 1Mbps. ADSL dies at about 76db to 78dB.

http://www.techtir.ie/comms/dsl-limits

Don't install comtrend or homeplug powerline networking!

hi watty just looking at the graph, and it seems that ADSL2+ would give me about 7mb? even the blue line shows that i should get about 6mb on standard DSL?

watty

Why?

What is your attenuation? Bear in mind that if the modem says more than 62dB, then you don't know the attenuation.

Those speeds are for perfect lines, no crosstalk. Note it's just attenuation quoted. No SNR etc.


Typical km (sorry about quality)

You can see that at 2.5km they all start to get closer together (VDSL, ADSL2+, ADSL) and at 5.5km there is very little difference. Again that graph is "ideal" conditions vs distance. Another graph shows variation due to quality and cross talk. You can probably take 25% off the speed on both those graphs in the real world. They are produced by people selling DSL exchange equipment so they show the upper theoretical limit, not real world speeds, but they do show the relative speeds of DSL and DSL2+ and VDSL and how beyond a critical point the speed drops very fast indeed.

At least you are not in Milton Keynes. At that time someone thought aluminium phone wire was a good cost saving idea. It's rubbish for DSL.

Re-read my article
http://www.techtir.ie/comms/dsl-limits

ingen

watty wrote: »

Why?

What is your attenuation? Bear in mind that if the modem says more than 62dB, then you don't know the attenuation.

Those speeds are for perfect lines, no crosstalk. Note it's just attenuation quoted. No SNR etc.


Typical km (sorry about quality)

You can see that at 2.5km they all start to get closer together (VDSL, ADSL2+, ADSL) and at 5.5km there is very little difference. Again that graph is "ideal" conditions vs distance. Another graph shows variation due to quality and cross talk. You can probably take 25% off the speed on both those graphs in the real world. They are produced by people selling DSL exchange equipment so they show the upper theoretical limit, not real world speeds, but they do show the relative speeds of DSL and DSL2+ and VDSL and how beyond a critical point the speed drops very fast indeed.

At least you are not in Milton Keynes. At that time someone thought aluminium phone wire was a good cost saving idea. It's rubbish for DSL.

Re-read my article
http://www.techtir.ie/comms/dsl-limits

attenuation 51db

ingen

watty wrote: »

Why?

What is your attenuation? Bear in mind that if the modem says more than 62dB, then you don't know the attenuation.

Those speeds are for perfect lines, no crosstalk. Note it's just attenuation quoted. No SNR etc.


Typical km (sorry about quality)

You can see that at 2.5km they all start to get closer together (VDSL, ADSL2+, ADSL) and at 5.5km there is very little difference. Again that graph is "ideal" conditions vs distance. Another graph shows variation due to quality and cross talk. You can probably take 25% off the speed on both those graphs in the real world. They are produced by people selling DSL exchange equipment so they show the upper theoretical limit, not real world speeds, but they do show the relative speeds of DSL and DSL2+ and VDSL and how beyond a critical point the speed drops very fast indeed.

At least you are not in Milton Keynes. At that time someone thought aluminium phone wire was a good cost saving idea. It's rubbish for DSL.

Re-read my article
http://www.techtir.ie/comms/dsl-limits

eircom broadband support told me to call 1901 to ask to have line upgraded.. and then i will get 8mb
is this possible?

watty

Try and see!

ingen

watty wrote: »

Try and see!

i did and they tell me that the exchange DBC12 is not ADSL2+ enabled??
also they said they dont do line upgrades...

im nearly certain that DBC12 exchange has been upgraded to ADSL2+...

yuloni

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ingen

Condi wrote: »

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pretty much they said that my exchange DBC12 is not ADSL2/2+ enabled.

i thought it was ADSL2 upgraded ages ago

watty

Condi wrote: »

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They probably mean ADSL2+, which does do up to 24Mbps, on the pavement beside the exchange and 7Mbps to 10Mbps for average line of 3km.

Plain ADSL does up to about 8Mbps, on the pavement beside the exchange and about 3Mbps for average line of 3km.

AFAIK, the in-between standard of ADSL2, isn't installed anywhere.

Sponge Bob

ingen wrote: »

pretty much they said that my exchange DBC12

That should be the main Drogheda exchange which has ADSL2+ but I don't know what the 12 at the end stands for, a cabinet number maybe or a rack number of old ADSL1 gear perhaps ???

watty

This gets back to the recent suggestion that ADSL2+ enabled exchanges may actually have one or more shelves of basic ADSL DSLAM also. Sneaky. Thus the "ADSL2+" enabled exchanges/coverage may be "misleading".

Sponge Bob

Could also be backhaul and could be NGB related flummery seeing as the eircom marketing fuks believe that 8mbits ADSL, a standard from 2001 , is 'next generation' .

I requested an up to date eircom wholesale list of exchanges...by PM would be just dandy

ingen

watty wrote: »

This gets back to the recent suggestion that ADSL2+ enabled exchanges may actually have one or more shelves of basic ADSL DSLAM also. Sneaky. Thus the "ADSL2+" enabled exchanges/coverage may be "misleading".

i think that they may be keeping the adsl2+ ports for users who order high end dsl packages close to the exchange..

and the standard joesoap who gets NGB is in standard adsl port... thats my thinking...

Baneblade

what is probably happening is everyone was on adsl previously and they installed a few adsl2+ equipment but only move people on to it was the packages are ordered. saves them replaceing all their equipment when most people are on < 8mb packages and/or too far away to have any benifit of been moved to the adsl2+ equipment

Varik

Is there a list of the exchanges getting upgraded or have been,

Attenuation (dB) : Downstream 19.0 Upstream 10.0