[Split Thread]Greatest non-African Distance Athlete of all time

thirtyfoot

woodchopper wrote: »

Craig 'Buster' Mottram the greatest non African distance athlete of all time, his pbs speek for themselves.

Great athlete alright and great to have in Cork but if a return of one bronze medal from Worlds is the definition of the greatest (even non-African) distance athlete of all time then I will go and eat my jocks after a German Volume Training inspired session of lunges. Sonia has a better record tham him. Start at Zatopek and Viren with their 4 Olympic golds and work back from there.

woodchopper

Tingle wrote: »

Great athlete alright and great to have in Cork but if a return of one bronze medal from Worlds is the definition of the greatest (even non-African) distance athlete of all time then I will go and eat my jocks after a German Volume Training inspired session of lunges. Sonia has a better record tham him. Start at Zatopek and Viren with their 4 Olympic golds and work back from there.

Sorry I meant male. Does 12.55 ring a bell

thirtyfoot

woodchopper wrote: »

Sorry I meant male. Does 12.55 ring a bell

Times, schmimes, 12:55 rings a bell but 4 Olympic golds (or any number of Olympic golds) rings louder. Medals baby, that defines greatness. Asafa is faster than Lewis, is he greater, no. Is Moorcroft better than Foster, he is 14 seconds faster on paper but he has no gold medal and Foster has a European gold and an Olympic bronze. How can a World bronze be greater than 4 Olympic Golds. You need to go back further than this millenniun to define greatness. My jocks are safe.

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

Sorry I meant male. Does 12.55 ring a bell

Chris Solisnky would spring to mind if you were going on time 12.56 5k and 26.59 10k would put him up there

woodchopper

Tingle wrote: »

Times, schmimes, 12:55 rings a bell but 4 Olympic golds (or any number of Olympic golds) rings louder. Medals baby, that defines greatness. Asafa is faster than Lewis, is he greater, no. Is Moorcroft better than Foster, he is 14 seconds faster on paper but he has no gold medal and Foster has a European gold and an Olympic bronze. How can a World bronze be greater than 4 Olympic Golds. You need to go back further than this millenniun to define greatness. My jocks are safe.

Firstly despite what you might think using your jocks in a debate is hardly a sign of intelligence. Seeing as you know more than myself on the ancient olympics of 1972 and 76 could you tell me how many Africans did Vinen defeat, the last time I checked Finnish athletes dont run away from Kenyans with 600 metres to go in an Olympic final.

myflipflops

Tingle wrote: »

Times, schmimes, 12:55 rings a bell but 4 Olympic golds (or any number of Olympic golds) rings louder. Medals baby, that defines greatness. Asafa is faster than Lewis, is he greater, no. Is Moorcroft better than Foster, he is 14 seconds faster on paper but he has no gold medal and Foster has a European gold and an Olympic bronze. How can a World bronze be greater than 4 Olympic Golds. You need to go back further than this millenniun to define greatness. My jocks are safe.

Come on guys, comparing athletes from different generations is just impossible. You can argue down the medal point by saying the competition wasn't as strong back in the 50's/60's/70's. You can argue down the time point by disucssing massive advances in training, medicine, technonolgy etc etc. There's no definitive answer. It's all hot air and opinions.

Pherekydes

woodchopper wrote: »

Firstly despite what you might think using your jocks in a debate is hardly a sign of intelligence. Seeing as you know more than myself on the ancient olympics of 1972 and 76 could you tell me how many Africans did Vinen defeat, the last time I checked Finnish athletes dont run away from Kenyans with 600 metres to go in an Olympic final.

Youtube is great! Go and look up Viren. Watch him beating Miruts Yifter, no less. And Mohammed Gammoudi, who was reigning Olympic Champion. Viren set a World record whilst doing so. Not too bad.

woodchopper

Pherekydes wrote: »

Youtube is great! Go and look up Viren. Watch him beating Miruts Yifter, no less. And Mohammed Gammoudi, who was reigning Olympic Champion. Viren set a World record whilst doing so. Not too bad.

One swallow does not make a summer

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

One swallow does not make a summer

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to imply here?

His record though is pretty impressive

4 out of 5 golds in 72 and 76 and 5th place in the marathon and a WR in the 10k in 72. I take your point that he did not have the competition of the dominant Africans but at the time Europe was the power house in distance running beat the top runners in the world.

Hard to disregard him as one of the greatest athletes in Olympic history being african or not

Though it is hard to make a comparison given the current dominance of African distance running though there are a few names which can be put up there and in recent years there has been a resurgence in American distance running which woould rival Mottrams success's

downthemiddle

I find it difficult to accept the credibility of Viren given some of the "methods" the Finns used at the time.
Athletes such as Zatopek and Nurmi carry far greater weight in this debate. However it is all a matter of conjecture. It is only possible to compare athletes within eras.

ecoli

downthemiddle wrote: »

I find it difficult to accept the credibility of Viren given some of the "methods" the Finns used at the time.
Athletes such as Zatopek and Nurmi carry far greater weight in this debate. However it is all a matter of conjecture. It is only possible to compare athletes within eras.

Though i have my doubts myself regarding the "methods" the fact is that these were morally ambiguous but legal in the world of sport and as such i dont think we can discredit his achievements ability.
Agree with the era comment and i think Solinsky and Mottram are near enough to be compared and i think that we will see many Americans progress from this in the near future

ss43

woodchopper wrote: »

Firstly despite what you might think using your jocks in a debate is hardly a sign of intelligence. Seeing as you know more than myself on the ancient olympics of 1972 and 76 could you tell me how many Africans did Vinen defeat, the last time I checked Finnish athletes dont run away from Kenyans with 600 metres to go in an Olympic final.

Well, if you want to keep it within the last ten years, how about:

Nils Schumann - Olympic Gold
Borzakovsky - Olympic Gold
Rui Silva - Olympic Bronze
Stefano Baldini - Olympic Gold
Vanderlei de Lima - Olympic Bronze
Nick Willis - Olympic Silver
Mehdi Baala - Olympic Bronze

I don't think many of them would swap that for a world champs bronze.

If you're going on times, how about these non Africans who'd be higher up all-time lists that Mottram (along with most of the medallsits mentioned above).

Seb Coe
Joaquim Cruz
Fermin Cacho
Ronaldo da Costa
Bouabdellah Tahri

Mottram's time isn't even top 40 in the world.

woodchopper

ss43 wrote: »

Well, if you want to keep it within the last ten years, how about:

Nils Schumann - Olympic Gold
Borzakovsky - Olympic Gold
Rui Silva - Olympic Bronze
Stefano Baldini - Olympic Gold
Vanderlei de Lima - Olympic Bronze
Nick Willis - Olympic Silver
Mehdi Baala - Olympic Bronze

I don't think many of them would swap that for a world champs bronze.

If you're going on times, how about these non Africans who'd be higher up all-time lists that Mottram (along with most of the medallsits mentioned above).

Seb Coe
Joaquim Cruz
Fermin Cacho
Ronaldo da Costa
Bouabdellah Tahri

Mottram's time isn't even top 40 in the world.

The athletes you have identified are mostly middle distance not distance. The dog in the street knows that Seb Coe is the greatest non African athlete of all time but this topic is in relation to 1500 to marathon. Going by this Mottram is one of the best 3.48 mile. 7.30 3k, 12.55 5k and a whole host of fast 10k road races. He has ran sub 13 on many occasions, won commonwealth and world championship medals and a victory over Bekele in a 3000m world cup race.

Also half of the athletes you have named are of African origin or non mzungo. Ask the Africans who they respect and they will reply the big mzungo. Finally the 1500 metre race in the Olympics is common for a European seeking a medal as was the case with Rui Silva, Nick Willis albeit a Kiwi. Mottram has faster 1500 metre times than many of these athletes even though the 5000 is his specialty. Mottram historically has always struck fear into the hearts of the European athletes. Watch the great man in action down in Cork as he graces the hollowed tartan of CIT, a truley historic occasion for Irish sport perhaps bigger than anything that has gone before.

myflipflops

woodchopper wrote: »

Watch the great man in action down in Cork as he graces the hollowed tartan of CIT, a truley historic occasion for Irish sport perhaps bigger than anything that has gone before.

Now the hyperbole has gone too far.

Mottram has raced the Cork City sports a number of times. This must be his 6th time racing in Ireland at the very least. It will be worst form he's ever been in while running here too I would guess.

Edit: He ran Cork City Sports in 2001, 2004 & 2005 as well as the World Cross in Leopardstown in 2002 and the Junior World Coss in Belfast in 99 so that's 6 appearances at least in Ireland.

thirtyfoot

Sherpa Tenzing recently confirmed that it was not he or Hillary who first set foot on the roof of the world but Mottram. Also news that we are no longer in recession has been attributed to the imminient arrival of Mottram according to the ESRI. The Church in Portugal has confirmed that there was a 4th Secret of Fatima and it's that Craig Mottram is the greatest athlete ever. It's also been rumoured that Patsy McGonagle has persuaded Mottram to declare for Ireland to do the Discus. Mottram is a world class athlete who has run savage times but never fulfilled on his promise by winning as many medals as his timed suggested he could.

Not all of the above sentences are true.

Being serious, probably comes down to what you regard more more important - times or medals.

Runfaster

Mottram is another Ray Flynn great times but few titles....no denying physically he is very talented but has he the ability to handle big pressure races, to raise the peformance for the Championship races??? Thusfar-- NO!

MEDALS OVER THE CLOCK EVERY TIME!!!

W.B. Yeats

Tingle wrote: »

Sherpa Tenzing recently confirmed that it was not he or Hillary who first set foot on the roof of the world but Mottram. Also news that we are no longer in recession has been attributed to the imminient arrival of Mottram according to the ESRI. The Church in Portugal has confirmed that there was a 4th Secret of Fatima and it's that Craig Mottram is the greatest athlete ever. It's also been rumoured that Patsy McGonagle has persuaded Mottram to declare for Ireland to do the Discus. Mottram is a world class athlete who has run savage times but never fulfilled on his promise by winning as many medals as his timed suggested he could.

Not all of the above sentences are true.

Being serious, probably comes down to what you regard more more important - times or medals.

Very good indeed:D

As a note though it shows how far away from the East Africans that the rest of are that we are arguing over who is the best non African.....

I'd throw my tuppenceworth in there that Bannister is the greatest.....
Breaking the 4 minute was one of the all time historic achievements that made things possible for so many others down the line.
Whether you count a miler as a distance racer is up for debate and

ecoli

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

I'd throw my tuppenceworth in there that Bannister is the greatest.....
Breaking the 4 minute was one of the all time historic achievements that made things possible for so many others down the line.
Whether you count a miler as a distance racer is up for debate and

Personally I feel that John Landy's breaking of the 4 min mile was more of an achievement as he did it without pacers leading from the front. Granted Bannister went on to beat him in Empire Games but i still feel his approach and his attitude was amazing.
I think Mottram was the "great white hope" but i think that things have developed since his achievements with 3 Americans going under the 13 min barrier in the last year and one of these under the 27 min making him only one of 15 (all others are African) who have done this double. Ritz also managed 3rd in the world half in the only global championship since he broke this 13 min barrier so has medal winning pedigree as well as amazing times.
It will be interesting to see whether the Americans can compete in next years major championships

woodchopper

Tingle wrote: »

Sherpa Tenzing recently confirmed that it was not he or Hillary who first set foot on the roof of the world but Mottram. Also news that we are no longer in recession has been attributed to the imminient arrival of Mottram according to the ESRI. The Church in Portugal has confirmed that there was a 4th Secret of Fatima and it's that Craig Mottram is the greatest athlete ever. It's also been rumoured that Patsy McGonagle has persuaded Mottram to declare for Ireland to do the Discus. Mottram is a world class athlete who has run savage times but never fulfilled on his promise by winning as many medals as his timed suggested he could.

Not all of the above sentences are true.

Being serious, probably comes down to what you regard more more important - times or medals.

Perhaps you could go down to Cork this weekend and tell this joke to the man himself. Although Id doubt he would be too concerned by what a middle aged man would think of him.

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

Watch the great man in action down in Cork as he graces the hollowed tartan of CIT, a truley historic occasion for Irish sport perhaps bigger than anything that has gone before.

Sherpa Tenzing recently confirmed that it was not he or Hillary who first set foot on the roof of the world but Mottram. Also news that we are no longer in recession has been attributed to the imminient arrival of Mottram according to the ESRI. The Church in Portugal has confirmed that there was a 4th Secret of Fatima and it's that Craig Mottram is the greatest athlete ever. It's also been rumoured that Patsy McGonagle has persuaded Mottram to declare for Ireland to do the Discus. Mottram is a world class athlete who has run savage times but never fulfilled on his promise by winning as many medals as his timed suggested he could.

Personally speaking i think that "Buster" would prob laugh just as much at both comments i mean hollowed tartan of CIT not exactly the Hengelo and the Chuck Norris style references of him not exactly an attack on him:D

thirtyfoot

woodchopper wrote: »

Perhaps you could go down to Cork this weekend and tell this joke to the man himself. Although Id doubt he would be too concerned by what a middle aged man would think of him.

He is an Aussie (so probably doesn't take himself too seriously) and seems to be a decent bloke so I would presume he would see the funny side and might even agree and I would imagine he wouldn't claim to be the greatest non-African distance athlete of all time.

Won't be in Cork but anyone who is and notices a strange person on the top bend in the bushes with one hand on a stopwatch and the other down his pants chopping wood everytime Mottram passes by will know who it is:D:D

Are you heading down yourself, you must apoplectic with excitement, only one more sleep!!!!

Rineanna

Ok, this thread is not exactly going down the path I had envisioned. :eek: Let's argue the facts, please!

woodchopper

Tingle wrote: »

He is an Aussie (so probably doesn't take himself too seriously) and seems to be a decent bloke so I would presume he would see the funny side and might even agree and I would imagine he wouldn't claim to be the greatest non-African distance athlete of all time.

Won't be in Cork but anyone who is and notices a strange person on the top bend in the bushes with one hand on a stopwatch and the other down his pants chopping wood everytime Mottram passes by will know who it is:D:D

Are you heading down yourself, you must apoplectic with excitement, only one more sleep!!!!

It is not a good sign when a debate gets drawn into personal insults. There is no need for such childish behaviour and is completely off topic. I will accept an apology as Im a law abiding citizen who refuses to engage in the silly antics that have been highlighted above.

thirtyfoot

Rineanna wrote: »

Ok, this thread is not exactly going down the path I had envisioned. :eek: Let's argue the facts, please!

Apologies Rineanna, I though Woodchopper was having a laugh and it was a bit tongue in cheek when s/he referred to Mottram as appearing on the "hollowed tartan of CIT, a truley historic occasion for Irish sport perhaps bigger than anything that has gone before.". Thats why I went to have a bit of craic as I can't believe someone would actually believe it especially when Mottram has been here nearly half a dozen times before and in better shape. That fact s/he believes that and is harking on about being a law abiding citizen who will accept an apology leads me to now believe that someone like that (not necessarily woodchopper) will not be hiding in the bushes but will be standing out in the open or even inside the fence on lane 8, stop watch in hand wearing a trench coat and flashing to Mottram each time he completes a lap and beating away officials as they try to cart him/her off. To anyone in Cork, be afraid, be very afraid we could have a Father Cornelius 'Neil' Horan on our hands. Apologies to Neil Horan, I don't think you ever flashed anyone just jumped in front of them.

Apologies for dragging it off topic but anyone who believes this is the greatest moment in Irish sport deserves to get mercifully slagged, in any forum whether real life or internet. For the record, medals always trump times in my book.

Apologies woodchopper, but where do you get off, oops, apologies again for bad choice of words there using 'get off', but how as a law abiding citizen can you slander someone as being a middle aged man when a) they are definetly not middle aged, ie, 45-65 years of age and b) may not even be a man? I will accept an apology as an abiding poster of the A/R/T forum, ie, technically I have only attacked his/her posts and not him/her the poster*. If banter and slagging is no longer allowed, let me know as I'll finally get my coat.

* The comment about the hand in pockets chopping wood may be a bit close to the bone, oops, there I did it again sorry, so I may be open to accusation of attacking the poster there but we'd probably need a ruling on that one. Its a slow Friday................

woodchopper

Firstly I apologise if I touched a nerve opps! From my understanding middle age is your middle age ie 35-44. These figures indicate the average age by where we meet our waterloo 70-88. If 65 were middle age then that would leave you 130 yeras old at life ends, rare enough I would say. Going back to the topic at hand who could forget those memorable spring days in the park Buster striding clear of an elite international field. Who could forget that memorable evening in September when he beat the great Bekele. To this day Bekele claims that the performance given by Buster on that sunny evening convinced him to change his ways train even harder. Mottram would win the London 2012 Olympic Tri according to those inside the sport. Who else could achive such a feat. A true phenom of endurance sport.

ss43

woodchopper wrote: »

The athletes you have identified are mostly middle distance not distance. The dog in the street knows that Seb Coe is the greatest non African athlete of all time but this topic is in relation to 1500 to marathon. Going by this Mottram is one of the best 3.48 mile. 7.30 3k, 12.55 5k and a whole host of fast 10k road races. He has ran sub 13 on many occasions, won commonwealth and world championship medals and a victory over Bekele in a 3000m world cup race.

Also half of the athletes you have named are of African origin or non mzungo. Ask the Africans who they respect and they will reply the big mzungo. Finally the 1500 metre race in the Olympics is common for a European seeking a medal as was the case with Rui Silva, Nick Willis albeit a Kiwi. Mottram has faster 1500 metre times than many of these athletes even though the 5000 is his specialty. Mottram historically has always struck fear into the hearts of the European athletes. Watch the great man in action down in Cork as he graces the hollowed tartan of CIT, a truley historic occasion for Irish sport perhaps bigger than anything that has gone before.

Half are of African origin??? If you go back far enough we're probably all of African origin. I presume you're talking about Tahri and Baala (which is 2 of 12, not half). Both were born in France. You said non-African in your original post. Born, raised and living in Europe as well as competing for a European country makes them non-African in my book.

1500m to Marathon. Ronaldo da Costa held the world record recently enough so that beats Mottram on a times basis. Stefano Baldini won an Olympic Gold so that beats Mottram on a medals basis.

Good-for-white-but-average-on-a-world-level athlete competing in small event in Cork is perhaps bigger for Irish sport, than Irish athletes in Olympic finals, world cross country championships and european cross country championships being held in Ireland and any big occasions involving other sports. Yeash, I think we can all agree on that.

woodchopper wrote: »

Mottram would win the London 2012 Olympic Tri according to those inside the sport. Who else could achive such a feat. A true phenom of endurance sport.

Why doesn't he so? Either it's a nonsense sport not worth winning or more likely, it's a nonsense claim and he wouldn't be enar good enough.

A true phenom of endurance sport - not really, there's loads of athletes better - you just don't want to count them cos they're black.

TheRoadRunner

From an Irish perspective John Tracey would be high up this list. He meets the medals criteria and has great times at half and full marathon.

A bit OT but Seb Coe for me is the greatest non African athlete full stop. Actually even including the Africans he is right up there.

thirtyfoot

woodchopper wrote: »

Firstly I apologise if I touched a nerve opps! From my understanding middle age is your middle age ie 35-44. These figures indicate the average age by where we meet our waterloo 70-88. If 65 were middle age then that would leave you 130 yeras old at life ends, rare enough I would say.

You are fine, I was pretending to be offended by the middle age vibe. Comfortable with my age. By the way how can you be even sure I fit into your definition of middle age?

Rineanna

Just said I'd point out that Craig Mottram was a DNS at the Cork City Sports today.

:eek:

thirtyfoot

Rineanna wrote: »

Just said I'd point out that Craig Mottram was a DNS at the Cork City Sports today.

:eek:

The organisers forced him to withdraw on security reasons after his arrival at Cork airport was so chaotic. One observer said the airport was if the Beatles in Dublin in '63, Pope John Paul II in the Phoenix Park in '79 and Jacks Army coming home in '90 were all happening at the same time. CIT wouldn't have held the crowds so they had to ask him to not compete. Disappointing, for some very much more so than others.

Being middle aged I was at all 3 events mentioned above so I am not spoofing.

downthemiddle

Rineanna wrote: »

Just said I'd point out that Craig Mottram was a DNS at the Cork City Sports today.

:eek:

I heard he was in Athlone at the European tri c'ships sizing up the opposition for 2012. He is a cert if he can graduate from armbands in the swimming and stabilisers in the cycling.

ecoli

downthemiddle wrote: »

I heard he was in Athlone at the European tri c'ships sizing up the opposition for 2012. He is a cert if he can graduate from armbands in the swimming and stabilisers in the cycling.

Word on the street is there a conspiracy going down. Lance announcing going to Tri and now Mottram maybe a bit of a tag team with the body shape of athletes changing dramatically between disciplines and looking strangely like a certain pot smoking american Olympian as soon as he hits the water

woodchopper

downthemiddle wrote: »

I heard he was in Athlone at the European tri c'ships sizing up the opposition for 2012. He is a cert if he can graduate from armbands in the swimming and stabilisers in the cycling.

Not everybody can be as talented as you!

downthemiddle

woodchopper wrote: »

Not everybody can be as talented as you!

Tingle has already bloodied your nose I really don't want to move in for the kill.

woodchopper

downthemiddle wrote: »

Tingle has already bloodied your nose I really don't want to move in for the kill.

Nobody likes a guy who acts tough on the internet. It would have to take a very naive person to think that Allister Brownlee or whatever his name is could stand on the start line and think he could beat Buster. After the turn off from the cycle he would have a lead but with Mottram striding by after 6-8k leaving Brownlee a talented athlete in his own right stranded. However why would Mottram waste his time doing tri as it is a mickey mouse sport for athletes who would not make it at the top of either pro cycling swiming or running. A Type of paddy wackery sport.

PS You dont have the running speed to catch me and as you say move in for the kill. An apology will be acceptable thank you.

downthemiddle

woodchopper wrote: »

Not everybody can be as talented as you!

woodchopper wrote: »

PS You dont have the running speed to catch me and as you say move in for the kill. An apology will be acceptable thank you.

I'm in training as we speak. When I get my PB for the 100m below 20secs I'm coming after you. You can run but you can't hide :cool:

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

Nobody likes a guy who acts tough on the internet. It would have to take a very naive person to think that Allister Brownlee or whatever his name is could stand on the start line and think he could beat Buster. After the turn off from the cycle he would have a lead but with Mottram striding by after 6-8k leaving Brownlee a talented athlete in his own right stranded. However why would Mottram waste his time doing tri as it is a mickey mouse sport for athletes who would not make it at the top of either pro cycling swiming or running. A Type of paddy wackery sport.

PS You dont have the running speed to catch me and as you say move in for the kill. An apology will be acceptable thank you.

Was Brownlee not on the Euro XC team for GB and second in the UK XC so it appears he could hold is own in running? belittling Tri's on a Triathlon as well as running forum is more implying you are the one hiding behind the internet as i know alot of fine Triathletes who would hold there own in certain runners but again its comparing apples and oranges as they are completely different in terms of training.

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

Was Brownlee not on the Euro XC team for GB and second in the UK XC so it appears he could hold is own in running? belittling Tri's on a Triathlon as well as running forum is more implying you are the one hiding behind the internet as i know alot of fine Triathletes who would hold there own in certain runners but again its comparing apples and oranges as they are completely different in terms of training.

You quote yet ignore the point where I state that Brownlee is a talented athlete in his own right. But he in my humle estimation is at least two minutes slower if not more than Mottram. Remember despite been injured for 18 months ran a 13.24 5k split in Japan. He is in a different class to any triathlete out there. All Im doing is stating factual information something this thread is seriously lacking. Obviously Brian Keane is a talented athlete as shown with his cross country history and clearly is better than the joggers like you and I on this forum.

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

You quote yet ignore the point where I state that Brownlee is a talented athlete in his own right. But he in my humle estimation is at least two minutes slower if not more than Mottram. Remember despite been injured for 18 months ran a 13.24 5k split in Japan. He is in a different class to any triathlete out there. All Im doing is stating factual information something this thread is seriously lacking. Obviously Brian Keane is a talented athlete as shown with his cross country history and clearly is better than the joggers like you and I on this forum.

You are not taking into account that he can run them times fresh but them times are irrelevant when taking into account the fatigue factor of coming off the bike and after the swim and also the fact that Brownlee is 22 and has many more years of improvement so unless you take all these things into account it is no point in stating this specific factual information when making general claims as you have done so in this thread

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

You are not taking into account that he can run them times fresh but them times are irrelevant when taking into account the fatigue factor of coming off the bike and after the swim and also the fact that Brownlee is 22 and has many more years of improvement so unless you take all these things into account it is no point in stating this specific factual information when making general claims as you have done so in this thread

To say that times are irrelevant in the 10k segment of a tri is ridculous. Of course it matters and the fact remains ( you enjoy the facts) that Mottram would be faster off the bike as despite what you might think Brownlee will get tired too. This piece of information may surprise you. Mottram has experience in the event. Do your research and you will realize this young man.

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

To say that times are irrelevant in the 10k segment of a tri is ridculous. Of course it matters and the fact remains ( you enjoy the facts) that Mottram would be faster off the bike as despite what you might think Brownlee will get tired too. This piece of information may surprise you. Mottram has experience in the event. Do your research and you will realize this young man.

I said that there flat 10k cannot be the only marker.
Yes i realize that he did them in his youth for a good period of time (about five years if i do recall). The point i was raising was the fact that there is a significant drop off in his performances at 3k and 5k to his ten k time and even further on his 10k road time (which is 20 seconds slower). Given this it would indicate he is better over the shorter and as such i feel he would struggle more than you think
He openly admits he wasnt the best at tri s so to belittle one of the greatest Triathletes in a long while by saying he wouldnt have a chance over his own event is a little amusing.

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

I said that there flat 10k cannot be the only marker.
Yes i realize that he did them in his youth for a good period of time (about five years if i do recall). The point i was raising was the fact that there is a significant drop off in his performances at 3k and 5k to his ten k time and even further on his 10k road time (which is 20 seconds slower). Given this it would indicate he is better over the shorter and as such i feel he would struggle more than you think
He openly admits he wasnt the best at tri s so to belittle one of the greatest Triathletes in a long while by saying he wouldnt have a chance over his own event is a little amusing.

Well at least your amused. On a more serious point Mottrams only 10k on the track was a glorified tempo run. He ran 27.34 in Stanford 2008 with little or no opposition. Mo Farah was some way back. To judge his 10k ability on this tempo is something I find quite amusing. Keep the chin up

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

Well at least your amused. On a more serious point Mottrams only 10k on the track was a glorified tempo run. He ran 27.34 in Stanford 2008 with little or no opposition. Mo Farah was some way back. To judge his 10k ability on this tempo is something I find quite amusing. Keep the chin up

Such a Mottram fan i would have expected that you would have known he has actually ran 4 on track and 4 on the road his track times ranging from 27.34 - 28.19 his RR times 27.54- 28.28

8 races usually would qualify as good enough data to draw conclusions from.

Keep on plugging slugger

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

Such a Mottram fan i would have expected that you would have known he has actually ran 4 on track and 4 on the road his track times ranging from 27.34 - 28.19 his RR times 27.54- 28.28

8 races usually would qualify as good enough data to draw conclusions from.

Keep on plugging slugger

If you had been reading this thread you would have noticed that I mentioned his tempo runs in the park . Seeing as you spend more time talking about training than actually training you probably have researched the tempo runs you count as 10k races. Good man and enjoy been a fan next week in Santry.

donothoponpop

Attack the post, not the poster. Sorry guys, either keep it less personal, or bans/infractions will be handed out. I think we're all adult enough here to know what that means,

cheers

-donothpopnpop (mooderator)

woodchopper

donothoponpop wrote: »

Attack the post, not the poster. Sorry guys, either keep it less personal, or bans/infractions will be handed out. I think we're all adult enough here to know what that means,

cheers

-donothpopnpop (mooderator)

I agree lets keep this an adult conversation

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

If you had been reading this thread you would have noticed that I mentioned his tempo runs in the park . Seeing as you spend more time talking about training than actually training you probably have researched the tempo runs you count as 10k races. Good man and enjoy been a fan next week in Santry.

You are completely disregarding the fact that i did not just mention RR but track races too and if that 2005 when he was in sub 13 shape as far as i can remember only won by a second . You cant say that every 10k was a tempo granted the RR he was clear winner but the track races were tighter affairs. Fact of the matter is your claims hypothetical by saying he can run faster he just never has i am basing it of performances over space of his career not just one season. Its basically like saying Bekele is the best Marathon runner in the world without having run one because he is better at the shorter distances than Geb

donothoponpop

woodchopper wrote: »

I agree lets keep this an adult conversation

Great, so less of the personal stuff, thanks.

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

You are completely disregarding the fact that i did not just mention RR but track races too and if that 2005 when he was in sub 13 shape as far as i can remember only won by a second . You cant say that every 10k was a tempo granted the RR he was clear winner but the track races were tighter affairs. Fact of the matter is your claims hypothetical by saying he can run faster he just never has i am basing it of performances over space of his career not just one season. Its basically like saying Bekele is the best Marathon runner in the world without having run one because he is better at the shorter distances than Geb

This is personal abuse. Attack the post not the Poster

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

This is personal abuse. Attack the post not the Poster

This was not an attack but rather highlighting the fact that you only address half of the post and using an (if somewhat exaggerated) hypothetical comparison to highlight my point and showing what i am basing my opinions on.
This thread has really gone off topic while i agree that he was an exceptional athlete in his day i do not believe that he was the greatest and referring to his excellence in other sports is a pointless and not really the topic which the thread was split for

donothoponpop

woodchopper wrote: »

This is personal abuse. Attack the post not the Poster

Woodchopper given a weeks ban for back seat modding. I've given enough warnings beforehand.