Court Success ???

freddieot

I know there was a recent High Court case regarding a pistol shooter who was refused by his CS and then had his appeal rejected in the District Court.

It is I believe, the first High Court case that has come up which specifically involves the 'new rules \ laws' and as such may have a significant impact on future cases in the DC cases that are pendings.

My understanding is that the verdict is out. Can anyone confirm ?

Sparks

freddieot wrote: »

My understanding is that the verdict is out. Can anyone confirm ?

The verdict is not out yet. The case goes back to court July 2 for the final verdict (and the related case on October 15).

hk

I believe the verdict was today, and the rumours ive heard are saying the high court granted the liciences, please god will someone confirm and does anyone know more details of what was contained in the judgement:D

daveob007

I HEARD IT IS TRUE FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE CAN'T NAME THE APPEALANT or the person who informed me.
no other details yet but i am sure we will know more in the coming days.

Sparks

The Appealant is a matter of public record Dave, and anyone can call up the High Court to ask. I've emailed the request just now, will post up the reply when I get it.

Traumadoc

Not sure if there are any implications

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0710/1224274418849.html

freddieot

There are always implications.


Well done P*t.

Kryten

Looks like the High Court dont want to make the decision. Back to the District court. Legal tennis eh.

Best of luck anyway to the appealant.

Grizzly 45

From the info I got and thats from person and persons involved in this.It is a win.
HEADS UP!!!
One to watch for if you are ina District court win,the Garda CS/Super MAY try and appeal this to the circut court as well.
As they tried with the Limerick cases!!!As they claimed this was a civil matter,like liscensing a publican.Fortuneatly Judge Tom O Donnell applied good jurisprudence in this matter and upheld his decision that the Circut court has no statute function in any of the firearms acts,and that the CJB misc provisions act states clearly that the matter lies with the district court for arbitration.Thats it basically in a nutshell.
I am happy to say sofar five of the "Limerick seven"have recived their grant notices and are back shooting.
Soon,I will write up a post on this whole storyof one of the more unnecessarly stressful seven months of my recent life.

ROSSKI

These are probably stupid questions but what will happen if the district court now grant the licences,Will the chief super appeal it to the high courts? Will it be used as a benchmark case for other people that have got refusals and have appealed it - will they grant all refusals or will they let every appeal be heard-?

Grizzly 45

Frankly,it is not a good idea for a CS or Super to appeal this sort of decision of his local DJ to the High court.As it looks like he is questioning the judges capability and decisions in interperting the law,that he is sworn to uphold.So he would want to be a very brave man to do that.

There is a legal term for it,[cant remember off the top of my head]and our solicitors boss who has been a solicitor all his working life,of 50 years man and boy on the bench said he had only ever seen this happening once in his entire career!

Nor can it be from either side a case of "Oops , I didnt like that decision,I want a judical review!" You must go the high court with a point or points of bad law in the act.Or with bad interpertation of the Judge on a point of law

The HC cases of judical review are not all over yet.There is still proably a dozen and more yet to be heard on the various points of "bad law" contained in this dreadful act.

ROSSKI

Thanks for the reply - Will the chief supers not now grant the licences instead of bringing all people who appealed the refusals costing time and money on their behalf - surely you cant have one law for one man and another law for some one else? I got refused on a centrefire pistol (which is now in storage) and i have appealed it within the 30 days allowed and the reason was any gun can put a hole in a target so there is no need to have a centrefire pistol,I know of another case in my area that is being appealed and i want to see how that goes in court? I have the gun for 3 years and i have fulfilled all other criteria.Whats your thinking on this?

Grizzly 45

Get together with the other lads in your area,and help each other out for a start.It is a great help,comfort and brain storming to know there are others locally that are in the same boat.
Cant comment on the way thats going to work with the CS,no one knows.But the reason sounds lame your fellah gave you.It will be up to YOU to prove him wrong.The only way you will do that is having good groundwork done to prove your case and good reason to own.If you are not going to put some time and money,which you must into this,you will lose.There are no free lunches on this one!!Want to be a player.You gotta pay.

lead loader

What happens when this case hits the District Court for the second time? Is the case reheard in its entirity or does the Judge re examine the evidence already given? My understanding of the High Court Judgement is that the D.C. Judge must re examine the case, his decision has not been overturned in that there is still no ruling to issue the firearm certs. Is it possible that the D.C. Judge could rehear the case and still refuse the certs giving a different reason second time around??

ROSSKI

Thanks for the info - I will see how it pans out!

Sparks

Kryten wrote: »

Looks like the High Court dont want to make the decision. Back to the District court. Legal tennis eh.

Sort-of, sort-of-not.
This was a Judicial Review, the same way that all the prior High Court firearms licencing cases were, and like all of those cases, the High Court is not the licencing authority, it's just been called in to review the decision-making process used. In this case, the HC concluded that the DC had erred in allowing the local Super to refuse to issue on the basis that the Misc.Provisions Act banned centerfire handguns, specifically saying that the exception in the Misc. Act for those who'd owned them prior to Nov.19 1998 had been ignored.

It is a win. I've read over the judgement, but it was shown to me privately so I'll refrain from posting it up here just for now; it'll be up on courts.ie soon enough and I think there are parts of it that will be of interest to people at that point.

The Too Long; Didn't Read summary is that it was a good result for anyone trying to keep their centerfire pistols and didn't throw up any nasty stuff for anyone else.

Sparks

lead loader wrote: »

Is it possible that the D.C. Judge could rehear the case and still refuse the certs giving a different reason second time around??

Yes, that's perfectly possible, and that's almost always been the case with judicial review cases like this - the only one that I can think of that has carried a summary judgement was the recent supreme court appeal asking for a judicial review on a case that was so old there wasn't any point in going on because the law had been completely changed since the case was first filed.

dCorbus

On the face of it, this HC decision seems to be good news.

Question for the more legally minded:

Does the appeal of the CS's licencing decision go back to the District Court in general or to the particular DC judge, who decided the appeal in the first place?

If it goes back to the same judge, i'm presuming it's on a "matter of law" (i.e. some legalese) that the appeal decision will rest on and not on the "facts of the case" (i.e. the shooters evidence and good reason etc.)

Either way, I'd be v interested (like us all) to see how this pans out.

Also, a copy of the actual High Court decision would be handy for some light reading, if any knows where one can be found?

dC

Sparks

dCorbus wrote: »

Does the appeal of the CS's licencing decision go back to the District Court in general or to the particular DC judge, who decided the appeal in the first place?

The particular judge. This is a review of the decision in a specific case and unless he recuses himself or something comes up (like illness, etc) that requires it, the case stays with the judge.

If it goes back to the same judge, i'm presuming it's on a "matter of law" (i.e. some legalese) that the appeal decision will rest on and not on the "facts of the case" (i.e. the shooters evidence and good reason etc.)

Yes, the HC judge made that point explicitly, but then, there was a large part of both the original DC case and the HC judicial review that was basicly saying this was all about the law and not about the shooter, that his character wasn't in question, etc (though there's a neat bit then chucked in about how Derek Bird was beyond reproach as well, right up until he snapped).

Also, a copy of the actual High Court decision would be handy for some light reading, if any knows where one can be found?

Courts.ie should have it soon enough.

Sparks

Temporarily taking down the pdf I put up because I missed a reference in it that I was meant to blot out. I'll repost on Monday night when I'm back up in Dublin (don't have the necessary software here).

Rovi

Here it is again with the sensitive stuff obscured.