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What does Ireland really have?

  • 29-06-2010 11:58PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭


    I've been inspired by the thread discussing the Your Country, Your Call competition. As we all know, that competition threw up hundreds of ideas of which very few were feasible and only a fraction of these were good ideas. It made me think, just what does this little island of ours have in terms of generating income for us and creating jobs?

    During the boom, we liked to believe that MNCs came here for our skills and on face value, this seems a good assumption. For a while, we believed that our graduates were the best in Europe and that that was the reason Intel and Microsoft loved us so much. Sadly, as some of us know, the majority of our graduates are sub par and many are effectively still children after leaving college. Sadly, what attracted the big employers was a magic number; not 42 but 12.5%. However, with other countries borrowing this idea, this might not work long term.

    Normally, when this comes up at a government level, we get buzz phrases like "smart economy", "sustainable" or anything to that tune. Now, rather than have a good whinge about our this and that, I thought an interesting discussion could be had about what we do have, or what we could have if we were clever.

    My opinion is that our best asset is the land we stand on. Perhaps, if we were smart, we could gear our economy towards food production because with a low population, we have alot of space for farming.


    Discuss.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Agriculture has been done to be honest - other countries are simply better and more productive than Irish farmers are with higher standards and quality. Theres too many farms and farmers where its a part time hobby, subsidised by the EU CAP. In other countries, its treated as a business and makes choices based on market demand as opposed to filling in forms.

    I think the government simply needs to be brave enough to realise that it doesnt actually have to actually decide what the next economic era is going to look like. It doesnt have to decide "Yeah, lets build a shipyard in Cork and export ships to the Chinese!" or whatever crazy idea I remember one political hopeful coming up with.

    All it needs to do is make it easy to set up and run a bussiness in Ireland and make it easy to fail/learn. Then it simply needs to ensure it is a force for increasing competiveness in Ireland, not protecting unionised workforces or coteries of connected proffessionals (lawyers etc) from reality. After that, Irish people with a bit of common sense and drive will decide what business's theyre going to open.

    Ireland has for too long moved heaven and earth to try and appease and entice foreign entrepreneurs whilst studiously ignoring and demonising Irish entrepreneurs. Thats got to change.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    We might have a low population but we are only a small island. Large-scale food production with the added transport issue is not feasible.

    Like any small business, the key is to find a niche.

    Organic food? We are small enough that we could ban fertilisers etc and prodice organic food on a national scale. Island status should mean we could control this. Large farmers wouldn't like it and it is in danger from the mass production of organic food elsewhere in the world.

    GM experimentation? Again, our island status is an advantage. Cross-contamination to other countries would be difficult and we could test yields, taste, mass production of various new varieities.

    The point I am making is that for ordinary food for the population, we can import (as we do now for a lot of food) while nationally we chase some niche or specialised area.

    I only touched on agriculture as that was the OP suggestion but the targeting of niche areas has potential in everything from pharmaceuticals to IT to financial services. The IFSC is a good example. It was never going to rival London but it is no.1 or 2 in the world in a number of niche markets. Spot the gaps and go for them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭Barname


    Grass

    (the sort that cows and sheep eat)

    that's our only potentially advantageous natural resource

    (wind and tidal energy will only be economically advantageous if we develop them indigenously, otherwise we will simply be pissing away borrowed money to foreign companies on equipment we cannot afford)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Wind energy is a good one, as we are an island. But it should be developed indigenously.

    We do actually have quite high standards when it comes to food. There is excellent food produced by this country, often far better than in others. We could do with developing it a lot better though.

    I think at the end of the day our biggest asset is our people. For whatever reason, we're a hard working, ambitious lot willing to travel the world and do whatever it takes. Trying to develop niche markets is one thing, but as said before, I think we need to let Irish entrepreneurs have their heads and decide what way they want to take business. Make ourselves competitive domestically as well as internationally. There are some amazing people out there doing their best to try and re-energise this country; I don't think they get nearly enough credit. We need to focus very sharply on our 2nd and 3rd level education,making sure it is the best it can be and ranks highly around the world. It gives people the tools to do the best they can and to bring the country back to life.

    I know these aren't suggestions as such, but I just thought I'd add them anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Sand wrote: »
    Agriculture has been done to be honest - other countries are simply better and more productive than Irish farmers are with higher standards and quality. Theres too many farms and farmers where its a part time hobby, subsidised by the EU CAP. In other countries, its treated as a business and makes choices based on market demand as opposed to filling in forms.

    Sorry but this is a croc of crap

    Can you provide specific countries which have higher standards and quality than Ireland in food production?

    Can you also provide examples of countries which are more productive and "simply better" than Ireland?

    And with regards to the "form filling" line, do you think their is a single agricultural producer in this country who wants to spend more (any) time filling in forms than doing actual farm work?? Where do you think this form filling is coming from ??


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭Pittens


    Wind energy is a good one, as we are an island. But it should be developed indigenously.

    no it doesn't. Any deal would be better than the shell type deal as wind is a certainty, but the people to do this are the MNC's as they know what to do.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,612 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    What have we got?

    We've some of the best surf conditions in the world, good diving conditions and a whole load of small surf and dive schools opening - Bord Failte should be promoting this.

    We have a massive diaspora located all over the world - this should be leverageable. (Not sure if it's legal but could we extend the qualifying criteria for an Irish passport to the 3rd generation provided 2 or more great grandparents were Irish? We could make it a condition that these passports were only collectible in Dublin ;))

    We're pretty good in the ICT and Software markets. We may not be able to compete in terms of electricity costs for server farms, or in Hardware R&D etc. but we're largely holding our own in the software sphere.

    Our beef is some of the best in the world.

    The largest international airline in the world is Irish run and largely Irish owned.

    Unfortunately, we've also got an utterly useless government, a political system which ensures that the government will stay useless and a serious problem with 'entitlements' versus responsibilities.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    It's a mix.

    We are a food producing nation with a "Premium" stamp applied. That's a good thing. But it's only one aspect of what we do.

    To be successful we need to leverage the knowledge and creativity of our people. This is not a buzzword. We need to create the conditions that allow creative startups - many started by people from abroad - in California and other places.

    Cut red tape, encourage people to start businesses, the young in particular, and teach them to do more than get a job and work till retirement age.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Sand wrote: »
    Agriculture has been done to be honest - other countries are simply better and more productive than Irish farmers are with higher standards and quality. Theres too many farms and farmers where its a part time hobby, subsidised by the EU CAP. In other countries, its treated as a business and makes choices based on market demand as opposed to filling in forms.

    BS.
    Higher standards and quality my ar**, you mean cheaper don't you ?
    And the reason they are cheaper is their input costs (energy, fuel, fertiliser) are way cheaper.
    Yes there are lots of part time farmers, but one of the reasons for that is that they cannot make a living from farming even if they have 50 cows.
    Your ideal may be huge factory farms, but other countries are discovering that may provide cheaper mass produced food but is not necessarily better.

    Farmers here or elsewhere in EU do no fill in forms out of choice, it is because some beaurocrats decided they would like their own farmers to jump through hoops all the while allowing importing of cheaper products from other countries with f*** all quality or production control.

    With the way the world population is increasing, the way major agricultural regions e.g USA Midwest, Western Australia, Murray Darling South Australia are suffering continous periods of long droughts, we with our mild wet climate will become even more important and better placed.
    I expect a huge upturn aroudn the time we stop paying for NAMa and the banks, maybe 25 years time. ;)

    And I do agree about fostering entrepreneurship and allowing small businesses scope to grow or fail.
    dan_d wrote: »
    Wind energy is a good one, as we are an island. But it should be developed indigenously.

    Being an island does not mean we are windier.
    On sections of the west coast we do get high winds but how continous are they ?
    I was down on the South West Spanish coast and the place is full of wind farms becuase the area gets pretty consistent winds.
    I don't know if there are any areas in Ireland that would experience the same.
    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Sorry but this is a croc of crap

    Can you provide specific countries which have higher standards and quality than Ireland in food production?

    Can you also provide examples of countries which are more productive and "simply better" than Ireland?

    And with regards to the "form filling" line, do you think their is a single agricultural producer in this country who wants to spend more (any) time filling in forms than doing actual farm work?? Where do you think this form filling is coming from ??

    Well said.
    Sleepy wrote: »
    What have we got?

    We've some of the best surf conditions in the world, good diving conditions and a whole load of small surf and dive schools opening - Bord Failte should be promoting this.

    We have a massive diaspora located all over the world - this should be leverageable. (Not sure if it's legal but could we extend the qualifying criteria for an Irish passport to the 3rd generation provided 2 or more great grandparents were Irish? We could make it a condition that these passports were only collectible in Dublin ;))

    Bord Failte don't want surfers they want golfers who will stay in one of the many 4/5 star hotels that popped up with a golf course attached. :rolleyes:

    Would you include Russians and Israelies for passports ? ;)

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    One of the greatest resources this country has had is our seas. When we joined the EU, that valuable resource was more or less given away and to this day is being plundered by other EU nations. Yes, it is true we've gotten billions off them for entry but we've lost billions more thru plunder. Look how well the Icelandics and Norwegains have developed their aquaculture resources.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    I believe there's an interconnector currently being constructed between Ireland and the UK, there should have been more pipes/wires/whatever laid simultaneously so in a few years there'd be an opportunity to sell way more electricity to the UK. They're already dependent on energy imports and I'm sure they'd prefer one of their partners to be right next door, unlike, for example, the Russian gas pipelines passing through several countries, each with the potential to cause disruption.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭Barname


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    Look how well the Icelandics and Norwegains have developed their aquaculture resources.

    thats the key word...

    its not all about what you can just catch, but I agree, our politicians and senior civil servants blindly signed away our sovereign natural resources


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,612 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    jmayo wrote: »
    Bord Failte don't wnat surfers they want golfers who will stay in one of the many 4/5 star hotels that popped up with a gold course attached. :rolleyes:
    Ture, but you, I and most hoteliers, hostel owners etc. will take anyone's money that wants their services... Besides, one of the most avid surfers I know is a director of a world-wide finance and consultancy firm ;)
    Would you include Russians and Israelies for passports ? ;)
    Only if the Russians bring their oil with them and the Israelies stop being nasty to the Pallestinians :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    One of the greatest resources this country has had is our seas. When we joined the EU, that valuable resource was more or less given away and to this day is being plundered by other EU nations. Yes, it is true we've gotten billions off them for entry but we've lost billions more thru plunder.

    Not true, we've gained far more than we've lost from the EU.

    This myth was debunked before on boards.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    you might find some ideas on here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055790793

    Ireland has an educated, capable, self-confident population.
    That`s what it has.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    @Tipp Man
    Can you provide specific countries which have higher standards and quality than Ireland in food production?

    New Zealand dairy industry? 35% share of the global market?

    Sorry if I touched a nerve, but Ive lived and worked on farms myself - the vast majority of them are amateur operations kept afloat by massive CAP transfers and various schemes like REPS. I'm happy for successful farmers to prove me wrong by their own efforts, but sorry as a taxpayer I dont see any value in what will simply be another transfer of wealth from actually productive workers generating wealth to hobby farmers with 50 sheep strung out on 100 acres of bog.
    And with regards to the "form filling" line, do you think their is a single agricultural producer in this country who wants to spend more (any) time filling in forms than doing actual farm work?? Where do you think this form filling is coming from ??

    Same place the majority of farms income comes from.

    @Jmayo
    BS.
    Higher standards and quality my ar**, you mean cheaper don't you ?
    And the reason they are cheaper is their input costs (energy, fuel, fertiliser) are way cheaper.
    Yes there are lots of part time farmers, but one of the reasons for that is that they cannot make a living from farming even if they have 50 cows.
    Your ideal may be huge factory farms, but other countries are discovering that may provide cheaper mass produced food but is not necessarily better.

    Well maybe its cheaper or better, or maybe its cheaper and better? You're right to note the fertiliser costs - Irelands use of fertiliser in top of the table, so it makes it hard to go for niche organic markets. And it was only back in 2008 the Irish farming industry was attempting to persuade people to overlook the fact that Irish beef was being contaminated by PCB being in animal feed. Irish pork with dioxin levels of 200 times the accepted levels. Foot and mouth as well.

    Again, sorry if I am touching a nerve, but you freely admit that we arent able to compete on prices, and theres too many scare stories regarding the produce for me to think we are going to leverage agriculture to get us out of this mess, especially given the happy amateur status of the sector. I will happily watch companies and clever farmers prove me wrong, but I prefer they risk their own capital as opposed to the taxpayers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    One of the greatest resources this country has had is our seas. When we joined the EU, that valuable resource was more or less given away and to this day is being plundered by other EU nations. Yes, it is true we've gotten billions off them for entry but we've lost billions more thru plunder. Look how well the Icelandics and Norwegains have developed their aquaculture resources.

    Ireland made a good enough mess of the marine resources on their own, and Irish trawlers just don't fish in Irish waters.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    imme wrote: »
    you might find some ideas on here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055790793

    Ireland has an educated, capable, self-confident population.
    That`s what it has.

    But that's not unique. Ireland needs to have something no one else has, to be able to do somethign no one else can or do things better than others.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Our food industry and what our farmers produce has international quality recognition.
    This organic sector could work in Ireland, we could make it our own
    http://www.glenisk.com/
    Glenlisk was a small family owned operation in the midlands making lots of organic dairy products. Nowadays they are in every Spar, Centra, Tesco, Dunnes and Supervalue and their products are great.
    I believe Danone who are a huge company bought a stake in Glenlisk so if international corporations are confident in an Irish start-up we can repeat this.

    The other great thing we have is Tourism, we have things in Ireland that no other country in Europe has, the Burren for example.
    But there needs to better thinking and cooperation between government bodies for example:
    Cycling holidays are a great way to get tourists to see unspoilt Ireland (throw in a bungalow blitz joke :() but for example Irish Rail make it extremely difficult to get your bike around the country.

    We have fantastic golf courses and could be a leader in Europe for golfing holidays, weather aside.
    Failte Ireland do ok but need a shakeup and of course Ireland is far too expensive for many tourists.
    But if costs came down and service improved we could get huge revenue and employment here or at least regain what we lost. Costs are a major factor holding us back. We don't have to race to incredibly low prices but tourists should be getting value for money and this can be hard to get often


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭kuntboy


    I dont think local surfers would be too happy seeing Ireland promoted. Its too inconsistent and cold anyway...brrrrrr. I mean theres icebergs off the coast ffs, including the one that sank the Titanic.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 ✭✭ICE HOUSE


    Over 14% unemployment


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Bob the Seducer


    We're among the biggest producers of Zinc and Lead in the world (number one for zinc in Europe and number two for lead)

    http://www.mineralsireland.ie/Mining+in+Ireland/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,789 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Ireland has one great asset ...flexibility.

    We can turn on a sixpence while the big, lumbering economies take ages to just consider a proposal, never mind implement it.

    Plus, we largely fly under the radar. Nobody is particularly watching what Ireland is doing, which means that we just might sneak a good idea past the big boys and beat them to the post.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭dunsandin


    The smallest public sector in the developed world.... apparently. And we used to have our "Irishness" to sell to tourists, but we have become a blander version of ourselves as we modernised. We have a great depth of experience in the engineering and construction sector- more companies like Kentz would be good - sell our talents to the world for top dollar?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭Pittens


    We can turn on a sixpence while the big, lumbering economies take ages to just consider a proposal, never mind implement it.

    Yeah. From the outside the Irish reaction to the bust is seen as remarkable. The French would be on the streets. The Greeks are on the street, as they keep reminding us.

    There is something else, and I would agree that we get on well with Americans etc. - we are English speaking without the Empire. That means some things regarding the ex-Empire.

    1) We wont have to worry about antagonising some Chinese entrepreneur by not knowing about the Boxer rebellion. As we discussed in the Humanities forum the English ( the other English speakers) dont know any of their history.
    2) We wont feel bad about our once colonies taking over. We didnt have any. We would welcome the Chinese without a crisis.

    English matters. Lifestyle matters. As a place to visit Ireland is dandy - put a visiting Chinese lad in a castle and deal is done. Irland will be a Chinese hub in Europe, I am sure.

    Anyway we are out of recession. Well done Ireland. Onwards and upwards.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    peasant wrote: »
    Ireland has one great asset ...flexibility.

    We can turn on a sixpence while the big, lumbering economies take ages to just consider a proposal, never mind implement it.

    Plus, we largely fly under the radar. Nobody is particularly watching what Ireland is doing, which means that we just might sneak a good idea past the big boys and beat them to the post.

    What happens when Lenny gives the six pence to Anglo?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Sand wrote: »
    Agriculture has been done to be honest - other countries are simply better and more productive than Irish farmers are with higher standards and quality. Theres too many farms and farmers where its a part time hobby, subsidised by the EU CAP. In other countries, its treated as a business and makes choices based on market demand as opposed to filling in forms.

    I think the government simply needs to be brave enough to realise that it doesnt actually have to actually decide what the next economic era is going to look like. It doesnt have to decide "Yeah, lets build a shipyard in Cork and export ships to the Chinese!" or whatever crazy idea I remember one political hopeful coming up with.

    All it needs to do is make it easy to set up and run a bussiness in Ireland and make it easy to fail/learn. Then it simply needs to ensure it is a force for increasing competiveness in Ireland, not protecting unionised workforces or coteries of connected proffessionals (lawyers etc) from reality. After that, Irish people with a bit of common sense and drive will decide what business's theyre going to open.

    Ireland has for too long moved heaven and earth to try and appease and entice foreign entrepreneurs whilst studiously ignoring and demonising Irish entrepreneurs. Thats got to change.

    Yes I agree. But there is a huge play that Ireland could do i.e. increase it's food exports to Asia and build international food brands and healthy foods.

    Take it from me, this market is massive and growing at a tremendous rate. Healthy foods/nutraceutical/organics, Asians believe in the power of food to heal the body. The potential growth in this industry alone in China is mind boggling.

    In addition, Ireland could market it's regional areas with food related tourism...it's a big draw.

    Lastly just bring the costs down like the above poster said. Make it cheaper to have a golfing holiday, the Brits and Americans will all be over in a shot again So what if people get paid less, it's better than getting the dole right. You can live in your own village and town.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    maninasia wrote: »
    Yes I agree. But there is a huge play that Ireland could do i.e. increase it's food exports to Asia and build international food brands and healthy foods.

    Need to cut costs massively first to do that, which means paycuts absolutely everywhere, which won't happen on a big enough scale for too long.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,789 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Pittens wrote: »
    IrlandATHLONE will be a Chinese hub in Europe, I am sure.

    FYP :D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 42 lasnoufle


    Hi

    One thing I was amazed with when coming to Ireland is the running water. It's free, and it's very good (better than any place where I've lived in France or the UK).

    I don't know anything in this field, but couldn't this be used?
    First by the government to balance its costs; I've paid for running water everywhere else so I won't have a problem with it here, plus I pay for every other ressource I use (electricity, petrol, etc) so why not water anyway? On top of that I've read the systems are leaking like crazy, so there is definite improvement to be done there too.

    Then, between the saves from the leaks and the "natural" reserves, can't water be sold to other countries in a way or another? Or is it done already?


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