US losing to China in scientific research!

Remy13

while the United States embraces Palinish anti-intellectualism, dumbs down textbooks so Texans can read them, and debates creationism as historical fact, China is spending billions on becoming the leading scientific powerhouse in the world.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/27/AR2010062703639.html?hpid=moreheadlines

Amerika

And were did the Chinese get all that technology and training? I think the line from your article states it best: “Those have lured home scores of Western-trained Chinese researchers dedicated to transforming the People's Republic of China into a scientific superpower.”

Can you say “Thank you America, without you, we would be nothing.”

And isn’t it wonderful to be able to do so much without being dragged down by tyrannical government regulations and taxation, and oppressive environmental controls?

Maybe we should also ship them our illegal ailens.

Iwasfrozen

Amerika wrote: »

And were did the Chinese get all that technology and training? I think the line from your article states it best: “Those have lured home scores of Western-trained Chinese researchers dedicated to transforming the People's Republic of China into a scientific superpower.”

Can you say “Thank you America, without you, we would be nothing.”

And isn’t it wonderful to be able to do so much without being dragged down by tyrannical government regulations and taxation, and oppressive environmental controls?

Maybe we should also ship them our illegal ailens.

Western-trained does not equal American trained.

But anyway perhaps they should ship you their illegal immigrants in return for yours.

Amerika

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Western-trained does not equal American trained.

Yes, but if I recall correctly, the majority were trained in the US and most technology obtained or stolen was from the US.

But anyway perhaps they should ship you their illegal immigrants in return for yours.

Once captured, and after they are either eradicated or deported, how many do they have left... about a dozen?

Iwasfrozen

Amerika wrote: »

Yes, but if I recall correctly, the majority were trained in the US and most technology obtained or stolen was from the US.

Recal from what? I didn't read the article but I did a search for the word "America£ and it came up no results.

Amerika wrote: »

Once captured, and after they are either eradicated or deported, how many do they have left... about a dozen?

What?

Memnoch

It doesn't really matter where they were trained.

The fact remains that as long as idiots like palin and the morons in the republican party who try to gain votes by garnering to the Christian right are allowed to keep doing what they are doing, scientific research and endeavour will continue to suffer in America.

America is the only place in the western world where there is still an argument about so many fundamental scientific issues...

evolution
the role of "religion" in the state (officially it's not supposed to have one, but the reality is different)
Climate change

It goes on.

I mean contrast the American conservatives with the British Conservative party and you might argue that David Cameron's party is a left wing party, which it isn't of course, but it just shows you how extreme the right in America has gotten, and how far off the deep end they've fallen.

karma_

It's just the way of the world, powerful empires and civilisations rise and fall, why should America be any different? It's natural they should decline and a new power rise elsewhere and yes, China looks certain to capture that particular throne, it's inevitable.

Remy13

Amerika wrote: »

And were did the Chinese get all that technology and training? I think the line from your article states it best: “Those have lured home scores of Western-trained Chinese researchers dedicated to transforming the People's Republic of China into a scientific superpower.”

Can you say “Thank you America, without you, we would be nothing.”

just like how the US has lured the best and brightest from other countries for decades to raise its scientific level, China has now decided to do the same. is that a little sour grapes i detect in your response? surely whats good for one is good for all?

can the US say “thank you rest of the world, without you, we would be nothing.” ;-)

Amerika

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Recal from what? I didn't read the article but I did a search for the word "America£ and it came up no results.

Well, between 1979 and 1986 alone, China sent over 35,000 students abroad, 23,000 of which went to the United States. Now I know I support Palin, but even to me that represents a majority going to the United States. Probably the majority of the rest went to the USSR. How many do you suppose went to your neck of the woods?

Iwasfrozen

Amerika wrote: »

Well, between 1979 and 1986 alone, China sent over 35,000 students abroad, 23,000 of which went to the United States. Now I know I support Palin, but even to me that represents a majority going to the United States. Probably the majority of the rest went to the USSR. How many do you suppose went to your neck of the woods?

Where are you getting those figures from?

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Where are you getting those figures from?

I would imagine from sort of neo-con inclined website, that's all he ever seems to refer to.

Amerika

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Where are you getting those figures from?

karma_ wrote: »

I would imagine from sort of neo-con inclined website, that's all he ever seems to refer to.

Does it matter?

Regardless:
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/doctrine/China1.pdf
Endnotes 1 Part-1, number 33.

I know it's not Rolling Stoned, but the Federaton of American Scientists will have to do in a pinch.

(Pretty good for someone that admires Palin, wouldn't you agree? )

Iwasfrozen

Amerika wrote: »

Does it matter?

Regardless:
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/doctrine/China1.pdf
Endnotes 1 Part-1, number 33.

I know it's not Rolling Stoned, but the Federaton of American Scientists will have to do in a pinch.

(Pretty good for someone that admires Palin, wouldn't you agree? )

Wow ok, I have to admit that was pretty impressive.

murfie

Remy13 wrote: »

while the United States embraces Palinish anti-intellectualism, dumbs down textbooks so Texans can read them, and debates creationism as historical fact, China is spending billions on becoming the leading scientific powerhouse in the world.

I agree that the US is losing its way in leading innovation and scientific research but I think you still believe that its the conservatives that are in power right now. I think you will find that its the left and Obama that are reducing the funding for scientific advancement. NASA being the one that comes to mind, instead he wants Russia and China to lead the way! It sad really as i live in the area and these great scientists and engineers are losing their jobs! Dont blame a far right movement that little influence on policy and the purse strings blame the ones in charge of government

ynotdu

Remy13 wrote: »

just like how the US has lured the best and brightest from other countries for decades to raise its scientific level, China has now decided to do the same. surely whats good for one is good for all?

I would agree with there Remy13 except for the fact that the Chinese Leadership never have to answer to their people in an election.

When they do what is fair for ALL can also be fair for China!
until then they cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Countries whose people elect their leaders!

Remy13

murfie wrote: »

I agree that the US is losing its way in leading innovation and scientific research but I think you still believe that its the conservatives that are in power right now. I think you will find that its the left and Obama that are reducing the funding for scientific advancement. NASA being the one that comes to mind, instead he wants Russia and China to lead the way! It sad really as i live in the area and these great scientists and engineers are losing their jobs! Dont blame a far right movement that little influence on policy and the purse strings blame the ones in charge of government

i am aware that its a democrat government. i'm taking about the far-right knee-jerk reaction-ism to anything Obama. Palin and her ilk have a surprisingly large & rabid following who are stirring up resentment and spreading half-truths and lies and the whole Texas airbrushing of history is another embarrassment for a supposedly first world country.

i'm not surprised that things have gotten cut in the budget seeing as Obama has inherited the biggest deficit in history along with two wars and a financial meltdown.

ynotdu wrote: »

I would agree with there Remy13 except for the fact that the Chinese Leadership never have to answer to their people in an election.

When they do what is fair for ALL can also be fair for China!
until then they cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Countries whose people elect their leaders!

i know that China has a bad record with respect to human rights etc and i don't support that but they are making changes and i think thats to be encouraged.

Iwasfrozen

ynotdu wrote: »

I would agree with there Remy13 except for the fact that the Chinese Leadership never have to answer to their people in an election.

When they do what is fair for ALL can also be fair for China!
until then they cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Countries whose people elect their leaders!

I know what you mean but elected leaders are not always the best leaders.

Overheal

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

elected leaders are not always the best leaders.

True. But would you also agree that theres a higher probability of success in an elected vs. appointed leader system? At least where it pertains to apex authority figures.

Iwasfrozen

Overheal wrote: »

True. But would you also agree that theres a higher probability of success in an elected vs. appointed leader system? At least where it pertains to apex authority figures.

No, I wouldn't. There's nothing to suggest an elected leader is better then an apointed leader. Preferable, yes but not better.

ynotdu

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I know what you mean but elected leaders are not always the best leaders.

Well now i never thought i would be in the same thread with other posters who agree with Karl Marx when He said "Democracy amounts to five minutes in a Polling booth every four years"!

The only one i can think of that was in some way useful as a dictator was Tito who managed to hold Yugoslavia together until he died.

Yes things are changing in China but ultimatly the PARTY rules!
It must be wonderful Driving Cycling around North Korea seeing Giant Posters of the same old goat thats been in power since before You were born!

It must be So fabulous to live in Cuba to the point that You would tie Orange crates together and head to Sea against force nines to escape it.

I will let someone far more eloquent give You My answer Sir!;)

Ignore the first minute as it seems to be a fact that "Ich bien ein Berliner" actually translates to I am a doughnut {citations needed;)}
at about the one minute mark this man gives My response to You Sir and those who agree with You!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpaab-G6GTs

Remy13

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, I wouldn't. There's nothing to suggest an elected leader is better then an apointed leader. Preferable, yes but not better.

i agree. one only has to look at as recently as G.W.Bush in the US to understand that elected leaders aren't always the best.

ynotdu wrote: »

It must be So fabulous to live in Cuba to the point that You would tie Orange crates together and head to Sea against force nines to escape it.

to be fair, Cuba is still a third-world country, in part due to the ridiculous embargo by the US and it is in a constant state of war also due to covert aggression by the US.

when you weigh up these factors, of course a percentage of Cuban citizens are going to flee for a better life. wouldn't you?

ynotdu

Remy13 wrote: »

i agree. one only has to look at as recently as G.W.Bush in the US to understand that elected leaders aren't always the best.




to be fair, Cuba is still a third-world country, in part due to the ridiculous embargo by the US and it is in a constant state of war also due to covert aggression by the US.

when you weigh up these factors, of course a percentage of Cuban citizens are going to flee for a better life. wouldn't you?

Well Dubya was'nt really elected either first time round either{sorta}

There are degree's of wrongness and GW is hardly the best example of America's best Presidents.
How many Countrie's would forget in a hurry that an Island beside them was nearly a home to Nucleur weapons that would reach Washington before any kind of defense could be used?
Castro brought the World to the edge of destruction.
Ok the USA had mounted the silly bay of pigs 'invasion',but Castro and Guevara had overthrown a corrupt Govt only to become much more corrupt himself and oppress the people He claimed He liberated!

American agression overseas is on a timescale of history actually a very short one,dont forget it would not enter WW11 until it was attacked by Japan.

Then of course the waste of its own oil and the need to ensure the 'Oil Crisis' would not happen again prompted it to side with whatever 'Demon' in Oil rich Countries it perceived as of Stategic interest to them,it supported dictators hated in their own Country, e.g Shah of Iran and ended up hated in the Islamic World.

The Soviets were a threat to the entire world,Clearly had an expansionist programme{even self proclaimed} and America in its own interest and with a deep seated fear of Communismn responded to that in Korea,Vietnam,wherever........

America's other choice was to stay insular,have no markets to expand to and wait around until the World Map turned Red.
This anti-Communism sprung up some looneys to be sure in the US!

Two wrongs never make a right,but If You or I were in China We would not be typing our views as there would be no such entity allowed such as Boards.

Remy13

ynotdu wrote: »

Well Dubya was'nt really elected either first time round either{sorta}

which is a farce and a sad indictment of so called democracy IMO.

ynotdu wrote: »

There are degree's of wrongness and GW is hardly the best example of America's best Presidents.

i know but the point was that elected is not always better than appointed and in this case i think the point stands.

ynotdu wrote: »

How many Countrie's would forget in a hurry that an Island beside them was nearly a home to Nucleur weapons that would reach Washington before any kind of defense could be used?

but cuba is next to a country that is home to nuclear weapons that could reach Havana before any kind of defence could be used. now you could argue over the likelihood of the US using such weapons but let's not forget that the US is the only country to have used such devastating weapons in the first place. doesn't exactly inspire confidence. especially when u think the likes of Palin could have been elected and had an input into weather or not to push the button.

ynotdu wrote: »

Castro brought the World to the edge of destruction.
Ok the USA had mounted the silly bay of pigs 'invasion',but Castro and Guevara had overthrown a corrupt Govt only to become much more corrupt himself and oppress the people He claimed He liberated!

silly seems like an attempt to play down US aggression. the US wanted to overthrow Castro and reinstall their puppet government. when your country is in a state of war, liberties are often curtailed. not an excuse just a statement of fact.

ynotdu wrote: »

American agression overseas is on a timescale of history actually a very short one,dont forget it would not enter WW11 until it was attacked by Japan.

but they're making up for lost time with gusto. WW2 was quite profitable for the US. the UK only recently finished paying back uncle sam for war time loans. the US entered the war half way through, took the plaudits and made a tidy profit.

ynotdu wrote: »

Then of course the waste of its own oil and the need to ensure the 'Oil Crisis' would not happen again prompted it to side with whatever 'Demon' in Oil rich Countries it perceived as of Stategic interest to them,it supported dictators hated in their own Country, e.g Shah of Iran and ended up hated in the Islamic World.

i am aware of the cherry-picked war on terror.

ynotdu wrote: »

Two wrongs never make a right,but If You or I were in China We would not be typing our views as there would be no such entity allowed such as Boards.

quite possibly and as i stated before, i am not a fan of the Chinese system. however all these topics usually end with posters saying that howver bad the US is, China ( or insert boogyman country here as applicable ) is worse and therefore the US gets a pass. not good enough in my opinion.

PopeUrbanII

Remy13 wrote: »

while the United States embraces Palinish anti-intellectualism, dumbs down textbooks so Texans can read them, and debates creationism as historical fact, China is spending billions on becoming the leading scientific powerhouse in the world.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/27/AR2010062703639.html?hpid=moreheadlines

Your characterization of America is considerably inaccurate. Furthermore, I doubt the Chinese will remain fixated on math and science once they gain political and social freedom. Nothing erodes tradition faster and more thoroughly than popular capitalism and freedom of speech.

Overheal

PopeUrbanII wrote: »

Your characterization of America is considerably inaccurate. Furthermore, I doubt the Chinese will remain fixated on math and science once they gain political and social freedom. Nothing erodes tradition faster and more thoroughly than popular capitalism and freedom of speech.

PopeUrbanII wrote: »

OBAMA:
1. Devout Marxist
2. Islamic sympathizer
3. Anti-White racist
4. Hater of traditional, Christian America
:mad:

So when it deals with the Chinese you think it's a good thing, but when it's a Black American President....

PopeUrbanII

Overheal wrote: »

So when it deals with the Chinese you think it's a good thing, but when it's a Black American President....

Obama is a devout Marxist. He doesn't believe in freedom of speech, and neither do most of his followers. The fastest way to get banned or penalized at many, many websites is to criticize Obama -- Obama The False God.

Overheal

PopeUrbanII wrote: »

Obama is a devout Marxist. He doesn't believe in freedom of speech, and neither do most of his followers. The fastest way to get banned or penalized at many, many websites is to criticize Obama -- Obama The False God.

A quick way to get banned on this website is to make a bunch of bold sweeping statements like this without any tangible evidence.

ynotdu

Remy13 wrote: »

which is a farce and a sad indictment of so called democracy IMO.

Yes it Was!

i know but the point was that elected is not always better than appointed and in this case i think the point stands.

Try telling that to people who have not got the luxury We do to have some little say over our lives.

but let's not forget that the US is the only country to have used such devastating weapons in the first place. doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

are You saying that if Japan or Germany had split the Atom first they would not have done the same? I always felt that the USA Should have invited Japans leaders to see a demonstration of the bomb before it was dropped on Hiroshima ,but even though that was not done Japan did not Surrender until after Nagasaki?

silly seems like an attempt to play down US aggression. the US wanted to overthrow Castro and reinstall their puppet government.

Well in defence of JFK{who i admit to having a high regard for despite his faults} The Bay of Pigs was something He inherited from his predecessor,which was a CIA led operation and mostly utilised ex-Cuban born people.
Kennedy is widely reported to have been heard saying at the end of the disaster "How could I be So stupid"

Not an excuse but i think the suspicion about Military advice that left in Him and Robert possibly saved the World during the Cuban Missile Crisis,as You proably know the 'secret' deal Was that in return for Soviet ships stopping at the blockade America would quietly remove Missiles from Turkey six months later.
That final long night of the two telegrams from the Kremlin,One from Krushtov and a far more hardline one from an unknown source in the Polit-beureau was evidence that Krushtov was in the process of being overthrown.{and was soon afterwards}
Kennedy decided to ignore the one that was not from Krushtov and responded only to the more friendly one.
It was all so high risk{Kennedy already had wife and kids in the bunker}
It really was less than one second to Midnight on the doomsday Clock.
I genuinely think most people don't realise how close that period was to being Armageddon.

WW2 was quite profitable for the US. the UK only recently finished paying back uncle sam for war time loans. the US entered the war half way through, took the plaudits and made a tidy profit.

To be fair the President was taking high risks and supporting the war against the NAZI's in every way He could{Covertly}
It was Congress and the Senate who would not declare war until Pearl harbour.

i am aware of the cherry-picked war on terror.

I am talking about the Oil Crisis of the early 1970's that brought the West to it's knee's,long before 9/11 or Bush.

however all these topics usually end with posters saying that howver bad the US is, China ( or insert boogyman country here as applicable ) is worse and therefore the US gets a pass

.

I think it is a long time now since the US gets a pass for its wrongdoings.

Overheal

ynotdu wrote: »

I always felt that the USA Should have invited Japans leaders to see a demonstration of the bomb before it was dropped on Hiroshima ,but even though that was not done Japan did not Surrender until after Nagasaki?

That would have been like asking Khrushchev over to a white house for a beer during the missile crisis.

FISMA

(1) America's Chinese are smarter than China's Chinese.

(2) Any of China's people that get an opportunity to make $$$'s in the US leave and never return.

(3) China can spend all of the money it wants. That does not ensure anything. Russia spent a lot of money on development. Some say Russia is under-developed. In point of fact, it is mal-developed.

By the way, what has China created? Some examples please...

The Chinese begged Mr Clinton for wing technology and to get rid of that whole public key thing.

If the Chinese are so incredibly brilliant, why did they loan the US soooooooo much money and rely on the US to buy their cheap products? Sorry, they fell for the oldest trick in the book. Thanks for the loans, we built a lot of stuff. Now the dollar is worth less, and here they are.

Sorry, buddy, I have been around the block a few times and have seen this game before. Go ahead, bet against the US, it will be the last bet you make.

First, they said the same thing about the Arabs - they were going to own America. Next, came the 80's - the Japanese are going to own America. Now it's the same tune, different band - the Chinese are going to own America, please.

If I loan you $10,000 and you default shame on YOU.

If I loan you $10,000,000,000 and you default shame on ME.

So, be careful which horse you back in this race. Before America hiccups, we'll be in cardiac arrest.

PopeUrbanII

Overheal wrote: »

A quick way to get banned on this website is to make a bunch of bold sweeping statements like this without any tangible evidence.

No amount of 'tangible evidence' concerning Obama could ever change your mind. Don't delude yourself.