"Fake Irish passport allegation in spy case"

Nodin

One of the ten people arrested in the US accused of being part of an alleged Russian spy ring is also accused of using a false Irish passport.
A man named Richard Murphy, born in Philadelphia and living in New Jersey, was instructed to use the false Irish passport, according to details contained in the criminal complaint documents released by the US Justice Department.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0629/spy.html

Getting a bit feckin silly now, though at least they weren't bumping off people.

Ideally we could fine states doing this kind of thing through an international body. What think ye?

wes

This is definetly starting to get silly. I agree with the sentiment above, that some sort of internationally recognised machanism to deal with this kind of thing is needed.

Our man in Havana

It was probably a passport that was stolen from an Irish citizen abroad.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Haddockman wrote: »

It was probably a passport that was stolen from an Irish citizen abroad.

Possibly, but if its found that the Russians are involved I think in the interest of fairness we should expel a Russian diplomat at least.

Maybe boycott Russian produce too.

Coillte_Bhoy

Nodin wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0629/spy.html

Getting a bit feckin silly now, though at least they weren't bumping off people.

Ideally we could fine states doing this kind of thing through an international body. What think ye?

Fine Isarel??? Ya right.:rolleyes:

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nodin wrote: »

Ideally we could fine states doing this kind of thing through an international body. What think ye?

On the face of it thats a really good idea.

Iwasfrozen

Ellie Blue War wrote: »

Maybe boycott Russian produce too.

Well, that's coal, oil and gas out so...

Our man in Havana

Vodka too.

Wolfe Tone

This is a disgrace. States are effectively taking advantage of our good name.

limklad

Ellie Blue War wrote: »

Possibly, but if its found that the Russians are involved I think in the interest of fairness we should expel a Russian diplomat at least.

Maybe boycott Russian produce too.

We will boycott their gas and oil that we badly need to keep the prices down, maybe the EU will get involve to do the same and freeze their own arse's this winter in protest. :rolleyes:

caseyann

Irish passports were previously frowned upon in certain countries due to the IRA.Presently they had not been for a number of years,Now again we will be scrutinised to be sure we are in fact Irish with all this malarkey going on :mad:

reprazant

Ellie Blue War wrote: »

Possibly, but if its found that the Russians are involved I think in the interest of fairness we should expel a Russian diplomat at least.

Maybe boycott Russian produce too.

I expect to see a thread with a list of all Russian products which we can boycott.

dlofnep

Wait I'm confused - Was it a Russia Spy or an American?

Why is everybody using poor Ireland as a scapegoat?

caseyann

dlofnep wrote: »

Wait I'm confused - Was it a Russia Spy or an American?

Why is everybody using poor Ireland as a scapegoat?

Russian spy as far as i read.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

Wait I'm confused - Was it a Russia Spy or an American?

Why is everybody using poor Ireland as a scapegoat?

I think it was American citizens, spying for Russia on the USA.

caseyann

Ellie Blue War wrote: »

I think it was American citizens, spying for Russia on the USA.

Just read they are actual Russian citizens.

FunnyStuff

Wonder will we be expelling some Russian diplomats..... seriously doubt it.

dlofnep

FunnyStuff wrote: »

Wonder will we be expelling some Russian diplomats..... seriously doubt it.

If we found out that a Russian diplomat from inside Ireland forged a passport, then yes - that official should be expelled.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

If we found out that a Russian diplomat from inside Ireland forged a passport, then yes - that official should be expelled.

We'd never find out. It's Russia for fecks sake!

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We'd never find out. It's Russia for fecks sake!

Aye, they are a tricky bunch! But I mean - there is a difference between forging it in Ireland, and possibly stealing one abroad. We have no one to pin it on.

Still though - I think we should call on the Russian ambassador to give an explanation and an apology.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

Aye, they are a tricky bunch! But I mean - there is a difference between forging it in Ireland, and possibly stealing one abroad. We have no one to pin it on.

Still though - I think we should call on the Russian ambassador to give an explanation and an apology.

Agreed. But again, it's Russia. They aren't likely to offer an apology to a small country like Ireland.

We would have to put international pressure on them but I doubt any international body, including the E.U would be willing to put pressure on Russia. They are too economically important.

nacho libre

dlofnep wrote: »

Why is everybody using poor Ireland as a scapegoat?

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/29/russia.spying.analysis/index.html?iref=NS1&fbid=Pd5h5nHz_3P

i don't see why anyone is surprised. it's likely, as the above article suggests, this is going on most of the time and we know nothing about it.

FunnyStuff

dlofnep wrote: »

If we found out that a Russian diplomat from inside Ireland forged a passport, then yes - that official should be expelled.

Agreed ... i just dont think those making the decision would have the balls.

caseyann

Anna Chapman bought a mobile phone using the address '99 Fake Street'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7862663/Spy-kitbag-everything-you-need-to-be-a-real-life-James-Bond.html


How in a matter of weeks the same thing happening from two different countries.
I wonder do we have spies here or elsewhere buahahaha i am jking

Wheelsonthebus

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

This is a disgrace. States are effectively taking advantage of our good name.

States are effectively taking advantage of the fact we're a soft touch.

getz

Ellie Blue War wrote: »

I think it was American citizens, spying for Russia on the USA.

why then would he need a irish passport to be in the USA when he is already a citizen of the country he is spying in ?

JustinDee

Nodin wrote: »

Getting a bit feckin silly now, though at least they weren't bumping off people.
Ideally we could fine states doing this kind of thing through an international body. What think ye?

What passports were the so-called Columbia Three travelling with?
Have they been extradited to Columbia by Michael Martin, a minister to whom the integrity of the Irish passport is paramount?

Whats good for the goose etc . . .

Nijmegen

Other passports are used as well. Ireland is seen as a soft touch - or was - and a neutral country.

British passports also turned up in the middle of this.

Spies use forged documents of third party countries shocker... It has been too long since the cold war, hasn't it?

It's not a national insult. It's just espionage....

sensibleken

How could you do this through an international body? doesn't that defeat the purpose of spying?

Why the hell are the US and Russia spying on each other anyway?

Maybe they bought the passport from Haughey (zombie haughey)

Nijmegen

sensibleken wrote: »

Why the hell are the US and Russia spying on each other anyway?

Russia has 9,600 nuclear reasons to spy on the US. The US about the same in reverse.

JustinDee

sensibleken wrote: »

Maybe they bought the passport from Haughey (zombie haughey)

People seem to have forgotten that whole bin Mahfouz passports-for-favours scandal from not too long ago, haven't they?

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

If we found out that a Russian diplomat from inside Ireland forged a passport, then yes - that official should be expelled.

Funnily enough we didn't need that information to expel an Israeli official, as Martin clearly pointed out. Never ceases to amaze me tbh. :rolleyes:

The DFA should be keeping a close eye on this and have the ambassador here on speeddial. Explain themselves or make one or more embassy personel personae non grata.

nacho libre

sensibleken wrote: »

How could you do this through an international body? doesn't that defeat the purpose of spying?

Why the hell are the US and Russia spying on each other anyway?

all vying powers spy on each other, even nations that are friendly and staunch allies- retired FBI agents can attest to that.
as for doing it through international bodies, it's easier to conduct spying if people are operating in agencies that are seen as apolitical and at the same time have access to valuable information and zones that are risky to operate in.

for example the spy working under the guise of being a red crescent worker

or spies working in the IAEA, who are relaying the answers their paymasters want to see about a country they are hostile to, which then helps to shapen the geopolitical narrative on that particular country.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

Funnily enough we didn't need that information to expel an Israeli official, as Martin clearly pointed out. Never ceases to amaze me tbh. :rolleyes:

If you want to start an 'It wasn't the Israelis' thread', please feel free to do so. A bit of comic relief never goes astray.

reprazant

Nodin wrote: »

If you want to start an 'It wasn't the Israelis' thread', please feel free to do so. A bit of comic relief never goes astray.

The are similarities though.

-Both faked Irish passports in dubious secret agents shenanigans
-Both are both part & not part of Europe
-Both have used their army to fight what they call Islamic terrorists except in Russians case it was to send in their army twice to destroy Chechnya and then put their own puppet in power who rules through fear and human rights abuses.

I don't see a massive thread calling for a boycott of Russian goods, or for the Russian ambassador to be brought onto the tv and/or radio and asked to explain why the passports where used.

I find the differences in peoples reactions to both cases interesting.

Nodin

Yes, its amazing how differently people react when theres a death involved.

OhNoYouDidn't

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, its amazing how differently people react when theres a death involved.

Actually its more simple than that.

The Bahraini authorities put out a formal request for assistance from the Irish state on the hit, the US have done no such thing.

Secondly, we know there was a wholesale cloning operation of passports from various nations in the Dubai case, we don't here. Yet.

What is interesting about this case in the states was that the spies were reporting back information that is already in the public domain - policy debates and political gossip. Its not actually clear what laws they have broken. Seems a very expensive way of doing it.

Nodin

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Actually its more simple than that.

The Bahraini authorities put out a formal request for assistance from the Irish state on the hit, the US have done no such thing.

Secondly, we know there was a wholesale cloning operation of passports from various nations in the Dubai case, we don't here. Yet.

What is interesting about this case in the states was that the spies were reporting back information that is already in the public domain - policy debates and political gossip. Its not actually clear what laws they have broken. Seems a very expensive way of doing it.

Unlike famous spies such as Aldrich H. Ames and Robert P. Hanssen, who did incalculable damage to U.S. national security, those charged this week were ordered not to seek classified data, some federal officials said.

"They were here under deep cover, as a network in case Russian intelligence ever needed anything," said one law enforcement official, who like others quoted in this report spoke on the condition of anonymity because the investigation is continuing. "The idea was that they would become so Americanized that no one can ever find any connection between them and Russia."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/29/AR2010062905401.html?hpid=topnews

Twould seem they were "support".

Discodog

Are Irish passports just easier to fake or obtain fakes ?.

caseyann

Discodog wrote: »

Are Irish passports just easier to fake or obtain fakes ?.

I would say least suspect is the main reason why.
But as for the israeli ones they failed miserable with the faking of 19 splash one,so i dont think easy to fake.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, its amazing how differently people react when theres a death involved.

But the Israeli diplomat was expelled from Ireland because of suspicions over faked passports not a death.

If we were to expell diplomat's everytime there was a killing there'd be a lot of vacant office's in the Dublin 4 area.

caseyann

"This highlights once again the vulnerability of Irish passports," he added, claiming, that more than 33,000 Irish passports had been reported lost, stolen or mislaid - 6pc of the total issued.


http://www.herald.ie/world-news/new-fears-exposed-on-irish-passports-2239964.html

There is alot of it going on i am sure.

Fluffybums

Maybe the need for Irish passports could be used to reduce the national debt, a little more viable than the certificate of Irishness (or whatever they have called it) that was discussed on Mat Cooper on TodayFM tonight.:p

Nodin

Ellie Blue War wrote: »

But the Israeli diplomat was expelled from Ireland because of suspicions over faked passports not a death.

If we were to expell diplomat's everytime there was a killing there'd be a lot of vacant office's in the Dublin 4 area.

'suspicions over faked passports used to enter Dubai to carry out an assasination'

OhNoYouDidn't

Nodin wrote: »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/29/AR2010062905401.html?hpid=topnews

Twould seem they were "support".

And the charge is failure to register as a foreign agent, not espionage, so that would make sense.

Either way, if its proven that NKVD or whoever forged an Irish passport I would expect action to be taken, but not the same level as taken with Israel as the net result is very different.

JustinDee

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The Bahraini authorities put out a formal request for assistance from the Irish state on the hit, the US have done no such thing

Just wondering what Bahrain had to do with the Israeli assassination case.

OhNoYouDidn't

JustinDee wrote: »

Just wondering what Bahrain had to do with the Israeli assassination case.

Whoops, close though!

caseyann

This would mean that the Irish government will come under significant pressure to expel a Russian diplomat in a move identical to the measure taken against Israel.

Gardaí and Passport Office officials will examine whether the document issued in the name ‘Gerard Eunan Doherty’ may have been entirely false or whether the SVR ‘stole’ some or all of the identity of a real Irish citizen.
http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/fbi-details-ireland-passport-link-in-russian-spy-scandal-50314.html


They are saying these documents are of a much higher standard then those of the Israeli counterpart attempt.
Out goes a Russian.

simonj

Hang on, does this mean that if the folks at the passport office dont do their jobs again, that we can go to the Israeli AND Russian embassies to get our passports !! thats strike breaking, call SIPTU