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Irish Public Sector Smallest in Developed World!

  • 23-06-2010 11:02PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    Was just listening to the Late Debate on RTE (10pm -11pm) and one of the guys being interviewed made the point that Ireland's public sector was much smaller than in the UK and that in fact "in 2009 Irelands public sector was the smalllest in the developed world".

    Does anyone know where the figures are on this? I think its important that commentary about the "bloated and inefficient public sector" be backed up with numbers.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    ROFLOL.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,612 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Well, the UK is certainly not a country to be comparing ourselves against. The public sector there is horrendously bloated... you'd also have to consider that their (and many other developed countries) armed forces would account for a considerable chunk of their PS.

    Would be interesting to see the figures though! Especially a proper breakdown of numbers by role (e.g. how many HSE staff, what proportions are doctors, nurses, needless admin staff etc.)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,583 ✭✭✭✭cson


    Hi all,

    Was just listening to the Late Debate on RTE (10pm -11pm) and one of the guys being interviewed made the point that Ireland's public sector was much smaller than in the UK and that in fact "in 2009 Irelands public sector was the smalllest in the developed world".

    Does anyone know where the figures are on this? I think its important that commentary about the "bloated and inefficient public sector" be backed up with numbers.

    What exactly is your point? Are you propositioning posters to go and find figures for you to substantiate the comments in quotations or are you going to do it yourself?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    printy printy i say


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭George Orwell 1982


    cson wrote: »
    What exactly is your point? Are you propositioning posters to go and find figures for you to substantiate the comments in quotations or are you going to do it yourself?


    I'm genuinely interested to know what the facts are re size of Irish public sector. I don't know where the numbers are but they must be available somewhere. I am having a search online to try and find the numbers but maybe someone already knows where they are.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭George Orwell 1982


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    printy printy i say


    What does this mean?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭George Orwell 1982


    amacachi wrote: »
    ROFLOL.

    Sorry I don't know what this means.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,583 ✭✭✭✭cson


    I'm genuinely interested to know what the facts are re size of Irish public sector. I don't know where the numbers are but they must be available somewhere. I am having a search online to try and find the numbers but maybe someone already knows where they are.

    www.cso.ie

    Not that hard to be honest, a quick search on their website yielded the below;

    http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭George Orwell 1982


    cson wrote: »
    www.cso.ie

    Not that hard to be honest, a quick search on their website yielded the below;

    http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf

    Thanks, had a look at this but it doesn't compare public sector employment across countries.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭dunsandin


    Maye they just meant that the ps is full of titches. All the lads in the council look like they are a bit on the small side - maybe we could give them vitamins to increase their size:D Keep up with the neighbours, etc etc...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    5z700.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    I actually would believe this to be true. If you think about it, there are probably way more PS workers in France and England. However, such a statement is, shall we say, massaging the truth.

    Yes, in terms of numbers we probably have a smaller public sector but it should be calculated in ratio to the total workforce. We have 300k or so PS workers and a work force of about 2.2 million when the unemployed are included. So about 13.5% of our workers are PS workers, about 1 in 8. I'd imaging that's high.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,378 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    I actually would believe this to be true. If you think about it, there are probably way more PS workers in France and England. However, such a statement is, shall we say, massaging the truth.

    Yes, in terms of numbers we probably have a smaller public sector but it should be calculated in ratio to the total workforce. We have 300k or so PS workers and a work force of about 2.2 million when the unemployed are included. So about 13.5% of our workers are PS workers, about 1 in 8. I'd imaging that's high.
    I've seen the statement mentioned before on this site with data to back it up.
    The statement is as you point out, as a percentage of working people and not as a static figure, a static figure is useless for comparisons really.

    When you however account for the "armies" which most countries we are being compared with have the figure may get skewed a bit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Sorry I don't know what this means.

    ROFLOL = Rolling on the floor laughing out loud


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Did he mean public service or civil service? We have quangoed a lot of our services into the public service thereby reducing our civil service which means you don't count like with like,

    Are the same definitions used regarding utilities and other potentially privatised services? The UK has privatised everything including water. Do these count?

    Until we have some detail on the comparisons (and most journalists and posters are not qualified for that), we cannot comment,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Well this is what the OECD said

    The main finding of the OECD Report, Towards an Integrated Public Service, is that while the numbers employed in the Irish Public Service has increased significantly, such increases were from a relatively low-base, and general government employment in Ireland is relatively low among OECD countries.

    In comparison with other OECD countries therefore, Ireland has been able to deliver services with a Public Service that is relatively small given the size of the economy and labour force.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Firstly we are one of the smallest countries in the developed world, a fact that is often conveniently ignored when reciting statistics that compare us to other countries. It's all relative.

    Secondly, what is the percentage of our civil service in a ratio with our overall population, as compared to other countries. That's really the only way to make this exercise properly comparable with other countries - any other statistics don't really mean much.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    dan_d wrote: »
    Firstly we are one of the smallest countries in the developed world, a fact that is often conveniently ignored when reciting statistics that compare us to other countries. It's all relative.

    Secondly, what is the percentage of our civil service in a ratio with our overall population, as compared to other countries. That's really the only way to make this exercise properly comparable with other countries - any other statistics don't really mean much.

    The same OECD Report that Ardmacha quoted said that our Civil Service "does more with less" when compared to comparably sized European countries.

    Given what the OECD stands for, that they came out with a statement like this, when it was thought that they were going to utterly slate the Civil Service (given that they're a right wing Government mouthpiece) then it shows you that the Irish public believes the claptrap and lazy untrue generalisations that Independent Newspapers (and others) have been spoonfeeding the public.

    Interestingly the Civil Service is doing even more with even less since the publication of this report given that funding and wages have gone through the floor and work rates have gone significantly up.

    We're long overdue a bit of truth in this debate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    The same OECD Report that Ardmacha quoted said that our Civil Service "does more with less" when compared to comparably sized European countries.

    Given what the OECD stands for, that they came out with a statement like this, when it was thought that they were going to utterly slate the Civil Service (given that they're a right wing Government mouthpiece) then it shows you that the Irish public believes the claptrap and lazy untrue generalisations that Independent Newspapers (and others) have been spoonfeeding the public.

    Interestingly the Civil Service is doing even more with even less since the publication of this report given that funding and wages have gone through the floor and work rates have gone significantly up.

    We're long overdue a bit of truth in this debate.

    Many problems with this report mainly the way it is reported. The report states that out of 15 OECD countries Ireland has the fifth lowest % of employees in public sector. However they do not include voluntary hospitals (places like Mater Hospital, St. Vincents, basically any hospital in Ireland with a saints name). When they are included (and in one section of the report the OECD does include them) then Ireland moves up 4 places to 7th highest. On top of this you have to take into account the very small armed forces we have in this country you can see that our public sector excluding armed forces and civillian support would push us up the league table.

    Those saying we spend less ignore the pages of the report explaining how GDP is not a good method to use in Irelands case and they say:

    If however the level of public expenditure in Ireland is expressed as a percentage of GNI (40.5%), it becomes much closer to OECD average levels expressed as a percentage of GDP (42.7%).

    When you consider that in the last 2 years GNI has fallen much more than public sector spending you can again see that we are now probably above OECD average in both number of employees and in expenditure as expressed as a % of GNI.Even more so that given our financial situation is much worse than other OECD countries we should be spending much less than everyone else.

    More importantly the report is almost 400 pages long and is mainly recommendations of how the public service needs to improve. That seems to have been ignored. Indeed with the other thread on this forum about how some civil servants do not want to be moved this report recommends:


    "At present, few opportunities exist even for generalist staff to move within and across the Public Service. Limited mobility creates challenges in sharing skills and competencies across the system and in re-allocating
    resources to those areas most in need. In an integrated Public Service, individual public servants will have, and be expected to have, more varied careers across sectors. A mobility policy is needed to promote and facilitate movement of generalist staff across the different sectors of the Public Service. New arrangements are required for the redeployment of staff across organisational and sectoral boundaries to new higher priority activities"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    OMD wrote: »
    More importantly the report is almost 400 pages long and is mainly recommendations of how the public service needs to improve.

    well that was the point of the review
    That seems to have been ignored.

    not completely, some preogress had been made but tbh the downturn has resulted in many things stalling

    there is much in the report to be welcomed by public servants


    Indeed with the other thread on this forum about how some civil servants do not want to be moved this report recommends:

    [/SIZE]
    [/LEFT]
    "At present, few opportunities exist even for generalist staff to move within and across the Public Service. Limited mobility creates challenges in sharing skills and competencies across the system and in re-allocating
    resources to those areas most in need. In an integrated Public Service, individual public servants will have, and be expected to have, more varied careers across sectors. A mobility policy is needed to promote and facilitate movement of generalist staff across the different sectors of the Public Service. New arrangements are required for the redeployment of staff across organisational and sectoral boundaries to new higher priority activities"
    [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

    public servants cannot put in place the systems to allow for such mobility. That is up to the relevant employers and unions to sort out.

    I would add that 'mobility' as proposed in the report and 'mandatory redeployment' as being discussed at the moment are two very different things


    On top of this you have to take into account the very small armed forces we have in this country you can see that our public sector excluding armed forces and civillian support would push us up the league table.

    7th out of 15th is still low enough is it not? hardly indicative of a bloated system compared to other countries

    the issue or armed forces is also emntioned many times without any evidence, there are those who say it is not included in the data in other countries either

    dan_d wrote:
    Secondly, what is the percentage of our civil service in a ratio with our overall population, as compared to other countries. That's really the only way to make this exercise properly comparable with other countries - any other statistics don't really mean much.

    the OECD did use that statistic in their study


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    OMD wrote: »
    Many problems with this report mainly the way it is reported. The report states that out of 15 OECD countries Ireland has the fifth lowest % of employees in public sector. However they do not include voluntary hospitals (places like Mater Hospital, St. Vincents, basically any hospital in Ireland with a saints name). When they are included (and in one section of the report the OECD does include them) then Ireland moves up 4 places to 7th highest. On top of this you have to take into account the very small armed forces we have in this country you can see that our public sector excluding armed forces and civillian support would push us up the league table.

    Those saying we spend less ignore the pages of the report explaining how GDP is not a good method to use in Irelands case and they say:

    If however the level of public expenditure in Ireland is expressed as a percentage of GNI (40.5%), it becomes much closer to OECD average levels expressed as a percentage of GDP (42.7%).

    When you consider that in the last 2 years GNI has fallen much more than public sector spending you can again see that we are now probably above OECD average in both number of employees and in expenditure as expressed as a % of GNI.Even more so that given our financial situation is much worse than other OECD countries we should be spending much less than everyone else.

    More importantly the report is almost 400 pages long and is mainly recommendations of how the public service needs to improve. That seems to have been ignored. Indeed with the other thread on this forum about how some civil servants do not want to be moved this report recommends:


    "At present, few opportunities exist even for generalist staff to move within and across the Public Service. Limited mobility creates challenges in sharing skills and competencies across the system and in re-allocating
    resources to those areas most in need. In an integrated Public Service, individual public servants will have, and be expected to have, more varied careers across sectors. A mobility policy is needed to promote and facilitate movement of generalist staff across the different sectors of the Public Service. New arrangements are required for the redeployment of staff across organisational and sectoral boundaries to new higher priority activities"

    So you're saying that in a country where everything is notoriously expensive our public service spending is average?

    Interestingly public servants have just voted in favour of the very thing you're stating above. I can now be moved to anywhere in the country for any reason whatsoever without my agreement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭WalterMitty


    alot of the other countries have much more extensive services like state funded pre-schools , state employed home helps etc so it only works when comparing apples with apples. Saying that if our PS to non PS ratio is low compared to other developed countries it isnt good news for the public sector workers/unions as this "small" public sector is costing 35+billion a year to run!!!!! Which is it , small yet costing a large % of GNP or normal size and costing normal & of GNP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    alot of the other countries have much more extensive services

    ...and a lot of others don't.

    Provide specific examples with verified numbers etc... or what you're saying is merely heresay.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Riskymove wrote: »
    7th out of 15th is still low enough is it not? hardly indicative of a bloated system compared to other countries

    the issue or armed forces is also emntioned many times without any evidence, there are those who say it is not included in the data in other countries either

    7th out of 15 is obviously above average - if only slightly so - and I was writting in response to the previous post that it is "relatively low". As I also said these figures exclude defence forces and their civillian support. Those who say this is not included in data from other countries are wrong. It is included for Ireland and the report makes no reference that it is not included for other countries.

    Also the figures in the report are based on 2005 figures. Public sector employment is now about 7% higher than it was 5 years ago (including recent cuts)

    A more accurate reading of this report would be to say:
    "OECD says Ireland has one of the highest % of workers employed in public service compared to other countries and has a higher % of overall workforce employed in public sector than other countries"

    This is all the more scary when you consider how young the population of this country is. With the exception of education we should have a much lower level of public sector employees than other OECD countries with their aging populations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    So you're saying that in a country where everything is notoriously expensive our public service spending is average?
    .

    No absolutely not. What it says is in relation to our wealth 5 years ago our public service spending was average. We obviously spend much more in real terms than other countries.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    OMD wrote: »
    ....
    This is all the more scary when you consider how young the population of this country is. With the exception of education we should have a much lower level of public sector employees than other OECD countries with their aging populations.

    What effect would having a younger population have on it. Say for the finance or dept of Social Welfare. Is there a breakdown of number per dept?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    I think a new economic metric should be introduced to measure PS bloat

    lets call it

    BMW ownership ratio

    :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭Flex


    OMD wrote: »
    No absolutely not. What it says is in relation to our wealth 5 years ago our public service spending was average. We obviously spend much more in real terms than other countries.

    Thats another important fact to bear in mind. We (on average) considerably over-pay our public servants. If Ireland's public sector were paid a reasonale salary in comparison to their private sector counterparts (just for starters), rather than being given a significant pay premium, we could undoubtedly hire more workers in areas where they might actually be necessary. Its no good complaining about lack of staff or being overworked when the great majority of increases in staff budgets are swallowed up by the current workers in the form of payrises.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    OMD wrote: »
    Also the figures in the report are based on 2005 figures. Public sector employment is now about 7% higher than it was 5 years ago (including recent cuts)

    yes but its concentrated in 2 or 3 areas

    as mentioned above the report made specific comments about specific areas of the public service

    I would imagine that if you excluded health and education from the figures that the picture would be very different.

    looking for solutions while treating the public service as one homogenous entity causes problems.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Flex wrote: »
    Its no good complaining about lack of staff or being overworked when the great majority of increases in staff budgets are swallowed up by the current workers in the form of payrises.

    the huge increase in numbers for certain parts of the public service has had a far greater impact on the bill than wage rises

    tackling behemoths like the HSE and putting in place a proper administrative structure will do far more going forward than another pay cut


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