New researcher career framework for all postdocs

Kasycas

For those of you not aware, and for those of you who are, I wanted to start a discussion on the new researcher career framework that is supposed to be
rolled out nationwide but seems that UCD are the first to implement the scheme this coming academic year.

See forfas report here

We were given an information session about this last week and what it boils down to is that postdocs only have 4-6 years before they
a) have to get their own funding to become a research fellow or
b) have to move country in order to stay in academia.

Needless to say everyone in the room listening to this was outraged as it was presented to us as a beneficial, structured environment with courses being designed during the postdoc years that we can avail of in order for us to be able to up-skill and be more desirable to the public sector and industry.

No one will probably argue that upskilling is a benefit, but not when we are being skilled to an unemployable level within Ireland. Most people felt that we are being pushed out of the country with this new scheme and while mobility is considered almost a necessity for someone who wants to become a PI, there are probably plenty of people who would like the option to stay in Ireland if possible to continue a postdoc career.

With the government initiative to double the number of PhDs between 2006-2013, there simply wont be room for postdocs to stay. Moreover, while the current PI's sit on permanent positions, this 4-6 year postdoc restriction exists and obtaining research fellow money is akin to winning the lotto - what are we meant to do!?


Any thoughts welcome...

catho_monster

The report was published in October 2008?

Kasycas

I guess but it's only being implemented now. I suppose with all the bureaucracy involved it just takes that long...

avalon68

Has it not always been this way to a certain extent? Two postdocs and then move upwards or move out..... I know it sucks, but at that point if you havent made it in Ireland, you arent likely to - especially given the hiring embargos, lack of funding at the moment. Maybe if we had a better system for weeding out the PIs that are completely unproductive it would free up some positions for new blood....a version of publish or perish - but Im sure that wont be happening anytime soon.

djpbarry

Kasycas wrote: »

We were given an information session about this last week and what it boils down to is that postdocs only have 4-6 years before they
a) have to get their own funding to become a research fellow or
b) have to move country in order to stay in academia.

I'm not so sure this is a bad thing? If after 10 years of research (4 years PhD plus 6 years post-doc(s), for example), an individual is not in a position to secure their own funding, then serious questions have to be asked about the quality of their work.

avalon68

Kasycas wrote: »

Most people felt that we are being pushed out of the country with this new scheme and while mobility is considered almost a necessity for someone who wants to become a PI, there are probably plenty of people who would like the option to stay in Ireland if possible to continue a postdoc career.

I think the mobility aspect is a good thing - I moved to the states this year for a postdoc and it has been an eyeopening experience. I have learned so many new things, new techniques - and to be honest - a new way of thinking. I have also made invaluable contacts for my future career. Ireland is a small country, and I think it will be a good thing for people to bring back their experience from abroad.

El Siglo

To be honest would anyone want to stay in Ireland after six years of a post doc? As has been said, going to America etc... can be an eye opening experience and with the amount of funding available abroad especially from the private sector, it's a lot more conducive to research.
What makes this kind of tricky is the personal circumstances, I mean you could be married, have a kid or two, a mortgage etc...

Dr Strange

El Siglo wrote: »

...
What makes this kind of tricky is the personal circumstances, I mean you could be married, have a kid or two, a mortgage etc...

That's exactly the point that bothers me. The problem is that not everyone who finds him/herself in a post-doc situation can move around etc. So there should be something in place for people who cannot just pack up and move away for post-doc positions and fellow positions.

Kasycas

As well as Preusse's point, I also think that postdoctoral position are already very competitive as they are based normally on short (1-3 years) contracts and if the PI feels you are the best person for the job - why can't you get it?? I know of people in this very situation where loosing them as a postdoc will be devastating to the lab.

Moving around is without question an eye-opener but this impending mass emigration also forces people down the PI route which some people probably don't want.

If Ireland had R&D then this wouldn't be such a big issue and this might be one reason for this scheme - ie. to have a surplus of qualified researchers to attract outside investment. If this is the case I don't think it's fair we're being used as 'bait'.

Kasycas

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not so sure this is a bad thing? If after 10 years of research (4 years PhD plus 6 years post-doc(s), for example), an individual is not in a position to secure their own funding, then serious questions have to be asked about the quality of their work.

You would be surprised! There are less than a handful of schemes in my area anyhow, that I can apply for annually with approximately 7 times the number of applicants to awards! I don't always believe that quality is the issue where lack of funding is chronic, as there are some funding agencies that have their own priorities in what areas they want to fund, and if you're not in one of those categories then you loose out.

Dr Strange

Kasycas wrote: »

... I don't always believe that quality is the issue where lack of funding is chronic, as there are some funding agencies that have their own priorities in what areas they want to fund, and if you're not in one of those categories then you loose out.

I agree. I am in a similar position, researching in a field that is not really covered by the major funding agencies. It is also a field which is almost impossible to commercialise. For these reasons it may be extremely difficult to get research fellowships because funding amounts are relatively low.

El Siglo

Isn't sad to think that for a country with seven universities, thirteen ITs and DIT that we shouldn't by now have a proper R&D base by now after a good fifteen-twenty years of investment. How many other countries in reality have a problem of too many PhD graduates?

brianthebard

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not so sure this is a bad thing? If after 10 years of research (4 years PhD plus 6 years post-doc(s), for example), an individual is not in a position to secure their own funding, then serious questions have to be asked about the quality of their work.

I don't think its simply down to quality, my supervisor is the prof of a research institute and wasn't able to get funding for a project this year, he's well published and well established.

Red Alert

I just skimmed the Forfas report there now. It's tipping the balance more in favour of looking for an industry job when I finish.

Kasycas

Red Alert wrote: »

I just skimmed the Forfas report there now. It's tipping the balance more in favour of looking for an industry job when I finish.

Which will be tough with all the industries merging or leaving Ireland....

naughtoj

I think that introducing a careers framework for researchers is long overdue, however I do think there are some issues with the design.
After 10 years (PhD and post-doc) working on a single topic, I can see some merit in expecting a person to be in a position to obtain funding, at least as a co-author of a grant. However, this does not promote mobility, or expand the range of topics a researcher covers as it forces a researcher to stay in the same lab. Science research is my own field so I only speak for this, but research topics have become so focused that moving between labs is vital to expanding your knowledge base. Mobility is also a primary goal of current EU policy on research so the time restriction on post-docs seems a regressive step.
For a country hoping to have a "Knowledge economy" forcing the mass emigration of highly trained, highly educated people just seems counter intuitive. It is forcing a situation where all research in universities is carried out by individuals with less than 4 years post-doc experience. Most PI's also lecture and so the running of many projects and labs is left to one or two senior post-docs who train both undergraduate and PhD students as well as carrying out their own research. To characterise this role as a "training period" is quite insulting to many of these post-docs as well as devaluing the PhD period, which is a hard slog during which many people work exceptionally hard. To now find that your PhD is training you to be a trainee is just daft.