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proposed property tax 2010

  • 23-06-2010 09:20AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22


    Just hearing the news this morning, that we are most likely faced with a property tax later this year- am furious the government are even thinking of this.are we going to accept this , just as we have accepted all the pay levies/ penalties in recent times??. I have put myself through college, worked hard through my early 20's , scrimped and saved to get on property ladder. I am now saddled with negative equity, higher taxes, pay cuts and now possibly this. My partner who has a first class honours degree, isnow barely earning a living from his previously well paid job. I am a professional whose skills are valued worldwide and am seriously considering getting out of this mess of a country for good. Ithink if this is introduced , it will be the final straw for me
    Can they do this to us?


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Just hearing the news that we are most likely faced with a property tax later this year- am furious the government are even thinking of this.are we going to accept this , just as we have accepted all the pay levies/ penalties in recent times. I have put myself through college, worked hard through my early 20's , scrimped and saved to get on property ladder.Now saddled with negative equity, higher taxes, pay cuts and now possibly this. I am a proffessional whose skills are valued worldwide and am seriously considering getting out of this mess of a country for good.
    Can they do this to us?
    Where do you intend to go? Most countries have property taxes, not being clever, just making the point that we are one of very few countries with no property and water charges, and have pretty low levels of income tax. Most people who have not lost their jobs after the celtic tiger would still be doing pretty well compared to workers in other countries I would guess.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Just hearing the news this morning, that we are most likely faced with a property tax later this year- am furious the government are even thinking of this.are we going to accept this , just as we have accepted all the pay levies/ penalties in recent times??. I have put myself through college, worked hard through my early 20's , scrimped and saved to get on property ladder. I am now saddled with negative equity, higher taxes, pay cuts and now possibly this. My partner who has a first class honours degree, isnow barely earning a living from his previously well paid job. I am a professional whose skills are valued worldwide and am seriously considering getting out of this mess of a country for good. Ithink if this is introduced , it will be the final straw for me
    Can they do this to us?

    they can , they will , they should . we are borrowing 50million+ per day they have to raise it from somewhere. you will do very well to find any country where you don't have to pay some form of property tax we should been paying it here for years


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 490 ✭✭delop


    For me its as simple as 'Not while FF is in power'

    I would grudgingly accept it from another government if it was done in a fair and transparent manner. But i fear its just another lazy fixup by FF, and who will do the assessments? the protected FF Auctioneers Ill bet, the same *hunts who cheered the bubble and have survived the crash without sanction ..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭George Orwell 1982


    I imagine their will be an exemption for people in negative equity. I heard a discussion about this on the radio a while back and someone from FF was saying it just wouldn't wash to slap a property tax on someone in negative equity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    I imagine their will be an exemption for people in negative equity. I heard a discussion about this on the radio a while back and someone from FF was saying it just wouldn't wash to slap a property tax on someone in negative equity.

    I am sick of hearing this nonsense about negative equity, as long as you can continue to meet your repayments and don't need to sell then it is not an issue, and seen as though there is such little movement in the labour market there are only a very small number where it is an issue

    So if you can service your mortage you should pay the tax, regardless of negative equity


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    I imagine their will be an exemption for people in negative equity. I heard a discussion about this on the radio a while back and someone from FF was saying it just wouldn't wash to slap a property tax on someone in negative equity.

    It doesn't actually "wash" to slap any property tax on anyone who has already paid stamp duty on crazily overpriced houses......if anything, there should be no property tax due from those people until the stamp duty amount is offset against the annual property tax.

    I won't hold my breath, though; given the fiasco that is VRT + Road Tax + Tolls + Massive tax on fuel + NCT, the government have no sense of fairness or of not charging you twice if they know you're not a well-off lobby group.

    As for where this money is going to come from ? Or what they're going to waste it on ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    I imagine their will be an exemption for people in negative equity. I heard a discussion about this on the radio a while back and someone from FF was saying it just wouldn't wash to slap a property tax on someone in negative equity.


    anybody in negative equity should pay 2x times the tax because they have done more to create this housing bubble/ collapse than rest of us and should therefore take more of responsibility in paying for it .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭dean21


    mickeyk wrote: »
    Where do you intend to go? Most countries have property taxes, not being clever, just making the point that we are one of very few countries with no property and water charges, and have pretty low levels of income tax. Most people who have not lost their jobs after the celtic tiger would still be doing pretty well compared to workers in other countries I would guess.
    We had a tax, is was called stamp duty
    Are people going to get this tax back?????


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tora Bora


    Just hearing the news this morning, that we are most likely faced with a property tax later this year- am furious the government are even thinking of this.are we going to accept this , just as we have accepted all the pay levies/ penalties in recent times??. I have put myself through college, worked hard through my early 20's , scrimped and saved to get on property ladder. I am now saddled with negative equity, higher taxes, pay cuts and now possibly this. My partner who has a first class honours degree, isnow barely earning a living from his previously well paid job. I am a professional whose skills are valued worldwide and am seriously considering getting out of this mess of a country for good. Ithink if this is introduced , it will be the final straw for me
    Can they do this to us?

    Settle down there now and have a cup of coffee :P You are gonna see, year on year introduction of various sorts of levies and taxes to plug the hole in the boat. Cost of your childrens (if you have or will have) will sky rocket over the medium term. You will pay property tax! You will pay water rates! You will pay increased local authority charges for services! Etc, etc, etc ad nauseum:D:D:D

    But look abroad, look to Europe!!! All you read about now is "austerity" measures. What it boils down to is the governments in Europe will now start cutting spending and raising taxes to plug the hole in their own boats. So before you sell your negative equity home at a negative equity price (if you are lucky) to go abroad, just remember you will probably walk into the same sort of scenario :D:D:D:D

    Stay home and have the pleasure of being shafted by Eamon Gilmore instead of being shafted by Lehihan. :D:D:D:D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    mickeyk wrote: »
    Where do you intend to go? Most countries have property taxes, not being clever, just making the point that we are one of very few countries with no property and water charges, and have pretty low levels of income tax. Most people who have not lost their jobs after the celtic tiger would still be doing pretty well compared to workers in other countries I would guess.
    +1

    Try moving to the United States. They're a country reknowed for their hatred of taxes. Yet your property will have a tax levied upon it by the local county (I think, maybe the state). And if you live in a nice area with good amenities, you will pay through the nose for those amenities.

    I was talking to an American/Polish guy who was over here on a work contract a while back who said that he pays more than $5,000 per year on property taxes, around 7.5% of his annual salary.

    We're worrying about property taxes which will likely amount to about 3% of the average salary for the average home.

    We have to get used to this. We've been very lightly taxed for a long time. The only taxes you have to pay are Income Tax and VAT. Everything else is optional - you choose to pay it by availing of the service/product, such as VRT or stamp duty.
    This is in contrast to the rest of the world where if you want good services, you pay taxes right, left and centre.

    The Irish people are going to have to get used to this.

    There won't be any exemption for negative equity. They'll probably use a method similar to the U.S. - you pay a % of the purchase price of your home (if bought in the last five/ten years) *or* you can get the value reassessed and pay a % of that. Obviously most people will go get the value reassessed.

    Boom time for assessors :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,078 ✭✭✭conorhal


    danbohan wrote: »
    they can , they will , they should . we are borrowing 50million+ per day they have to raise it from somewhere. you will do very well to find any country where you don't have to pay some form of property tax we should been paying it here for years

    My opinion on this is simple, don't come knocking on my door looking for a handout until you get your house in order. We are borrowing 50 million a day to sustain the unsustainable.
    It's a myth that we are anything like a low tax economy, we're a moderate direct taxation economy with massive indirect taxes and charges, and I for one resent the number of times I have to pay tax on the money I earn. I'm being told to live within my means by a government that want to live large on my means. Once a government starts taking more than half of what you earn it can expect people to start avoiding tax by any means necessary.

    As a PAYE worker, I get taxed when I earn it, say an average of 30 cent on the euro, leaving me with 70 cent. Then I get taxed when I spend it, an average of 21%, leaving me with 55.3 cent. And now having spent it on a house they want another taste because they can't be bothered to wait untill you die to rob your grave with death taxes. They can FF OFF!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,780 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    i wouldnt actually mind paying but it has to go with wholesale reform of the public service (esp. councils) as i know i wont get improved services fro this extra money going in, i want to see some serious efficiencies put in place, now i'm a realist and know that this is never going to happen and the gov, councils and PS will continue p**ssing money away like theres no tomorrow.
    ever time you spend any money working for anyone you should appreciate where that moneys coming from and how hard people have had to work to generate that money (this seems sadly lacking in anything publicly funded)

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    dean21 wrote: »
    We had a tax, is was called stamp duty
    Are people going to get this tax back?????
    You make a fair point. It does seem unfair to levy these people again, but where do we draw the line, our 20bn deficit ain't gonna go away by itself, and no matter what measures are taken to try to plug the gap they are unfair on somebody.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    conorhal wrote: »
    My opinion on this is simple, don't come knocking on my door looking for a handout until you get your house in order. We are borrowing 50 million a day to sustain the unsustainable.
    It's a myth that we are anything like a low tax economy, we're a moderate direct taxation economy with massive indirect taxes and charges, and I for one resent the number of times I have to pay tax on the money I earn. I'm being told to live within my means by a government that want to live large on my means. Once a government starts taking more than half of what you earn it can expect people to start avoiding tax by any means necessary.

    As a PAYE worker, I get taxed when I earn it, say an average of 30 cent on the euro, leaving me with 70 cent. Then I get taxed when I spend it, an average of 21%, leaving me with 55.3 cent. And now having spent it on a house they want another taste because they can't be bothered to wait untill you die to rob your grave with death taxes. They can FF OFF!

    nobody likes paying tax , especially to see it go into black holes like banks and badly ran public services , yes their is massive wastage here , but that wont be sorted in short term or indeed maybe long term so whether we like it or not by this time next year we will all be paying property tax and in years after they will find more ways to tax the little you have left after paye etc ,remember we have 500k unemployed and an untouchable public service to fund so better get used of it or emigrate


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Jaysoose


    mickeyk wrote: »
    You make a fair point. It does seem unfair to levy these people again, but where do we draw the line, our 20bn deficit ain't gonna go away by itself, and no matter what measures are taken to try to plug the gap they are unfair on somebody.

    I think most people accept that taxes are an evil we have to put up with, the main issue is the way this goverment allocates and spends the revenue it gets from taxation. If the goverment had a clear plan to improve the standards of the services we receive and also address the wages of the public sector in a way that shows improvements in efficiency for the greater good then i would pay the tax.

    What i dont like is the current attitude of the goverment and the public sector that the people will keep putting their hands in their pockets to maintain the current status quo, this in my eyes is wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Jaysoose wrote: »
    I think most people accept that taxes are an evil we have to put up with, the main issue is the way this goverment allocates and spends the revenue it gets from taxation. If the goverment had a clear plan to improve the standards of the services we receive and also address the wages of the public sector in a way that shows improvements in efficiency for the greater good then i would pay the tax.

    What i dont like is the current attitude of the goverment and the public sector that the people will keep putting their hands in their pockets to maintain the current status quo, this in my eyes is wrong.
    In fairness the government introduced the pension levy & paycuts in the PS. I think they fudged th CP deal by not agreeing strict conditions and timelines, but at the same time it's a step in the right direction. We can't expect all the problems to be solved overnight, but yes we need to see real progress from now on, not empty promises.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 408 ✭✭blue_steel


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    I am sick of hearing this nonsense about negative equity, as long as you can continue to meet your repayments and don't need to sell then it is not an issue, and seen as though there is such little movement in the labour market there are only a very small number where it is an issue

    So if you can service your mortage you should pay the tax, regardless of negative equity

    em·pa·thy

       /ˈɛmthinsp.pngthinsp.pngθi/ dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled[em-puh-thee] dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA
    –noun the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    To echo what EdwinIreland said, i think a property tax should only really be introduced as a means to provide local services. Without doubt this is just another regressive tax to balance the governments books.

    However long term, a property tax can help fund local services in a reformed local authority system with enhanced powers and responsibilities as part of a devolvement of authority from central government.

    Let's not forget the history in all this. Gullible people in 1977 voted for FF who proposed removing domestic rates, the consequences of this decision still haunts us to this day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Jaysoose


    mickeyk wrote: »
    In fairness the government introduced the pension levy & paycuts in the PS. I think they fudged th CP deal by not agreeing strict conditions and timelines, but at the same time it's a step in the right direction. We can't expect all the problems to be solved overnight, but yes we need to see real progress from now on, not empty promises.

    This is the thing though, the cuts are a drop in the ocean to whats needed. There is no plan, no forward thinking...money being poured into anglo without any return.

    If they show me something concrete i will be happy to pay the tax all they are doing at the minute all they are doing is ignoring the problems while incredulously claiming that 'we have turned a corner' at the same time the live register is still growing!!

    I really fear that we as a nation are on the verge of defaulting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Jaysoose wrote: »
    If they show me something concrete i will be happy to pay the tax all they are doing at the minute all they are doing is ignoring the problems while incredulously claiming that 'we have turned a corner' at the same time the live register is still growing!!

    The FF lackey that was on Frontline the other night backing Cowen as the next Taoiseach :rolleyes: claimed that we hadn't "turned a corner" yet.

    How he supports a Taoiseach that he blatantly contradicts on a key FF spin-point is beyond me.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The FF lackey that was on Frontline the other night backing Cowen as the next Taoiseach :rolleyes: claimed that we hadn't "turned a corner" yet.

    How he supports a Taoiseach that he blatantly contradicts on a key FF spin-point is beyond me.

    We turned so many corners now my head is spinning :P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭bijapos


    Property tax, and for that matter water charges are needed whether we like it or not. The tax base has to be spread out more evenly, tax revenue has to be guaranteed during a recession as well as during a boom.

    Having said that I think allowance should be made for those who have recently paid stamp duty. Giving a reduction for those who paid over the last 10 years on a sliding scale would be a possibility.

    The property tax should be ringfenced and given to the county councils, water charges should be ringfenced for upgrading water infrastructure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,078 ✭✭✭conorhal


    danbohan wrote: »
    nobody likes paying tax , especially to see it go into black holes like banks and badly ran public services , yes their is massive wastage here , but that wont be sorted in short term or indeed maybe long term so whether we like it or not by this time next year we will all be paying property tax and in years after they will find more ways to tax the little you have left after paye etc ,remember we have 500k unemployed and an untouchable public service to fund so better get used of it or emigrate

    Sod that, I'd go with option B. Just not pay it.
    I know several people that say (and not just in the typically Irish sense of hollow outrage) that they will go to jail before paying a property tax.

    Think about it. You have a government and a bank, one inflates the property market for the revenue creating an unsustainable pyramid scheme, the other loans the money to their builder mates in the hopes of handsome profits and then sells you a mortgage on this inflated property that it's not sure that you can afford.
    The banks go bust along with the developers and the government decides to bail them out, so it taxes the house that they forced up the cost of and buried you in debt for so that the can bail out the very people responsible?

    There will be a fockin' revolution of they try this....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    blue_steel wrote: »
    em·pa·thy

       /ˈɛmthinsp.pngthinsp.pngθi/ dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled[em-puh-thee] dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA
    –noun the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.


    you've written that without actually reading my post properly

    IF YOU ARE NOT HAVING TROUBLE SERVICING YOUR MORTAGE YOU SHOUD PAY THE TAX REGARDLESS OF NEGATIVE EQUITY


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    A property tax should be introduced.
    On a pro-rata basis depending on the size/value of the house.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 955 ✭✭✭Pot Noodle =


    No way not while they are drawing large salaries and expenses I have paid my tax on my homes i will not pay again


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭bijapos


    I wouldn't be in favour of a tax on the value of the house, I foresee three problems.

    1. It will cost to value the house, therre will be too many arguments and appeals to the value, it becomes messy. What if you have two similar houses beside each other, two different valuers, one says 170k, the other 200k?

    2. If someone renovates/improves their house why then should they pay more than someone who does nothing?

    3. Someone may have bought a house for little money years ago, they may have an average earning job but because of forces outside their control the house is now worth a lot of money, why should they necesarily pay a lerge tax.

    Not that sure myself how it should be done but hinault touched on it by mentioning the size of the property. I think county councils should have a hand in determining the amount of tax as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Pot wrote:
    No way not while they are drawing large salaries and expenses I have paid my tax on my homes i will not pay again

    Definitely pay it on 2nd, 3rd etc homes


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 862 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    It happend in the US (especially in silicon valley) where people had family homes for years, and property taxes were paid on the value of the home.

    When the property prices skyrocketed as silicon valley started growing, people found that the yearly property taxes started exceeding their incomes, and were forced to move from their family homes.

    Years later, the law changed so the property tax was fixed at the date of purchase, and only re-valued when the house was sold.

    As sure as sugar, the current batch of financial whizzes will manage to mess this up leaving all kinds of pain for you and me, and on top of that:

    - The lads on the dole with the free houses will not pay a cent.
    - Those of us in the middle will pay a good percentage of our income - maybe 2%?
    - Those living in foxrock witha 45mil home will pay a tiny fraction of its worth (3,000 euro cap, as reported by one paper)

    So for the person who said this will spread out the tax base more evenly - it will only widen the existing gaps.


    Even if it was done as right and as fairly as could be, I'm completely opposed to property tax. We do pay enough tax as it is, it is time to reign in the welfare and other fraud, really spread the tax base, and stop the waste.

    Nothing will change unless we vote to change it. No to Property Tax


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    I have to agree. It's just pouring water into a collander. Shore up the holes, then, if there isn't enough, I'll happily give you more.

    You wouldn't give a €100 to a junky to "get themselves clean" before you saw positive calculable actions taking place.


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