About as low as we can get

LilyBeans

My husband has been denied welfare benefits based on the habitual residence clause, despite being a lifelong resident of the UK & Ireland. They claim because he is married to me, a US Citizen, his center of interest is elsewhere, as he had made an application for a visa to join me in the USA.

He has spent over a year now living on next to nothing. His house belonged to his great-grandparents, has no electricity, no kitchen, no hot water, no laundry, and only a small open fire for heat.

I send him what I can, but it's not much, as I do not make much myself.

Our application for a visa was recently denied. He took the denial letter in to the SW office and was again told that he would likely be refused based on the same issues. I do not understand this - what proof can we give these people to make them understand he is slowly starving? He has TRIED to find a job.

The SW person who visited his house actually had the gall to say that he must be faking it, because nobody would ever live in those conditions. WTF?

Since he pays no mortgage or rent, I can't provide check stubs or anything regarding that. He has no bank accounts. He's just existing - disappearing one day at a time.

Where can we go for help with this? My husband is currently eating nettles and spuds. I am toying wtih the idea of going to the media if anybody thinks it would help.

Why do you live in different countries?
Why doesn't he have a bank account?
What was he doing before he became unemployed?

You say he was in the UK - if he was paying National Insurance there he should be able to claim here. He would need to get his contributions validated and recognised though.

LilyBeans

I'm an American. We met online 6 years ago and got married 2 years ago, naively thinking we'd find a way to be together. I'm here working & taking care of my 72-yr old mother. We tried for a spousal visa, but it was denied. He can't come here - I can't go there.

He was collecting welfare benefits until 2009 when they completely cut him off - probably because he was visiting me every few months.

He is a blocklayer - not much blocklaying going on.

He was born in Scotland, but moved to Ireland in the 70s.

I'm totally in the dark regarding the laws on this, as our system is completely different. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I know people think I'm lying when I tell them he's only surviving at this point.

Balagan

The St Vincent Paul would help him.

http://www.svp.ie/Home.aspx

LilyBeans

Thank you - we are desperate enough to try anything.

Caoimhín

The local health officer will provide a certain amount of money to get by. Ask in the social welfare office for the contact number.
It is there for very hard cases like your husbands. There is no need to resort to nettles in 2010.

_michelle_

i would second about going to the svp they will access the situation and go from there however when he was cut off in 2009 did he not appeal the discisssion? if he is living as you say he is then he should be hounding the social welfare till they sort his claim out.

teacherspet

Contact citizen advice they should be able to tell him what to do. All major towns have an office.

Nolanger

He should go to his local TD.

JONJO THE MISER

Yeah call in to his local T.D, usually it will get sorted in no time, also try ringing Joe Duffy.

Theres probably more to this...

Hes here 40 years and is not allowed to be with you in the USA and can prove that with visa refusals. Has he a perfect work record the last 6-7 years? Is he back and forth from UK the whole time? Are his family all in the UK?

Why did he not appeal the disallowance or ask for a review? While on appeal the CWO probably would of paid him and id say he may of won on appeal.

Id say there is more to this that you're telling, as surley he would of appealed?

Also, going to your TD wont do anything. You either satisfy the conditions or you dont, TDs cant change that, seeing as it was probably his party that brought this condtion into place in the first place. They cant tell the DO that you do satisfy the conditon, its the DO's decision at the end of the day.

Also on re-reading your post, if he does re-apply, he'll have issues proving how hes supporting himself over the last year. Telling a DO that you've no bank account or evidence of means of support/residence in ireland ie telling them that you've been eating nettles and have no bills in your name/no bank accounts is asking to be disallowed again. How are they to be sure he was in Ireland?

Remember, the onus is on him to prove to the department that he is habitually resident, but he should reapply again and see how he gets on.

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH i find it hard to believe he was disallowed HRC. Theres probably more to this...

Hes here 40 years and is not allowed to be with you in the USA and can prove that with visa refusals. Has he a perfect work record the last 6-7 years? Is he back and forth from Scotland the whole time? Does he have kids in Scotland or anywhere else?

Why did he not appeal the disallowance or ask for a review? While on appeal the CWO probably would of paid him and id say he would of won on appeal.

Id say there is more to this that you're telling, as surley he would of appealed?

Also, going to your TD wont do anything. You either satisfy the conditions or you dont, TDs cant change that, seeing as it was probably his party that brought this condtion into place in the first place. They cant tell the DO that you do satisfy the conditon, its the DO's decision at the end of the day.

There are strict rules on "habitual residency" which can be hard on someone who travels back and forth.

It may well be that that is affecting this. With some benefits you can only be out of the country for 2/52 without losing them.

And no, you do not get paid while appeal is pending..

Getting an appeal heard also is not easy by any means.

The Onbudsman may help.

axel rose

How often do you meet up? Find it difficult to understand this situation. Either at least one of ye have the funds to fly to/from the states of you got married and havent seen each other in a year? From what you are describing there is no proof that your husband has been in the country for the past 12 months.


What are your long term plans now? Are there any more appeals for your husband to come to the states or do you plan to move to Ireland? (Either have a bearing on your husbands situation)

Graces7

axel rose wrote: »

How often do you meet up? Find it difficult to understand this situation. Either at least one of ye have the funds to fly to/from the states of you got married and havent seen each other in a year? From what you are describing there is no proof that your husband has been in the country for the past 12 months.


What are your long term plans now? Are there any more appeals for your husband to come to the states or do you plan to move to Ireland? (Either have a bearing on your husbands situation)

She said he used to visit her until his benefits were cut off; in which case he would not have been eligible because he was out of the country too often and for too long; habitual residency. If on the dole, you have so sign on etc.

If he has not been away since then, he should have appealed and been given the benefits again. But a lot of paperwork; these things can take months and those depts had industrial action earlier this year.

So yes, this is entirely feasible sadly.

He will need to reestablish residency; utility bills etc. WHich yes will be difficult.

Needs expert help on this face to face.CWO should help.

But they don't tell you these things....

axel rose

The Op is either not telling all the information or is not aware of all the facts. He was claiming UA/UB but appears to have been cut off due to the time he spent out of the country. He then has no proof that he was in the country........Now I'm not exactly Matlock but if I was a deciding officer and was looking at the history and (lacking) proof of residency.........

Graces7

axel rose wrote: »

The Op is either not telling all the information or is not aware of all the facts. He was claiming UA/UB but appears to have been cut off due to the time he spent out of the country. He then has no proof that he was in the country........Now I'm not exactly Matlock but if I was a deciding officer and was looking at the history and (lacking) proof of residency.........

This can and does happen and often very arbitrarily; we do a little advocacy work and know this.

As the OP says, it is all new ground to her.

If they checked on him and he was out of the country then they would stop everything and getting it to appeal can be fraught indeed. It took us over a year in one case and then they said the person had lost the right to appeal because of the time lapse and no amount of contesting that availed.

The impression we had was that some of the COs do not know procedures and the rules... they simply did not answer letters etc until the time fr appeal had well and truly lapsed. It was like arguing with a brick wall.

So I believe the OP; would not have done a year ago.

axel rose

The deciding officer was only coming to a very logical conclusion. The man was cut off as he was not in the country looking for work, (I won't even get into how someone on SW can afford to make multiple trips to the states). He then has no proof that he has been in the state for the past year.

IMO there wold be something seriously wrong if he was given anything.

cee_jay

From [url]www.welfare.ie:[/url]

HABITUAL RESIDENCE - 5 FACTORS
5.1 Length and Continuity of residence in Ireland or in any other particular country
5.2 Length and purpose of any absence from Ireland
5.3 Nature and pattern of Employment
5.4 Applicant's main centre of interest
5.5 Future intentions of applicant

If a person is going abroad to meet his wife, their centre of interest would not been seen as being in this state, and if applying for a visa to move to USA to be with their wife, future intentions would not be here. Also if they were going back and forth to another country, they could fall on the first two factors also.

Balagan

People on JA can have savings and can spend it how they wish. He wouldn't be the only one of us to fail to realise that the recession was going to hit so hard.

There are many ways, outside of utility bills, bank accounts etc., of proving a person was/is here.

I hope this man has succeeded in getting food etc., and the necessary assistance to enable him to appeal the Department of Social Protection's decision.

eth0_

Balagan wrote: »

People on JA can have savings and can spend it how they wish. He wouldn't be the only one of us to fail to realise that the recession was going to hit so hard.

Yes that's true but they must be available for work year-round. You are allowed to take 2 weeks holidays per year but you must inform the SW!
This is an unfortunate situation but it's all of his own doing.

Balagan wrote: »

There are many ways, outside of utility bills, bank accounts etc., of proving a person was/is here.

Such as?! Clearly the SW officer has called round to his home and found he was out of the country without informing them, and quite rightly his benefits were stopped.

I feel sorry for this man and I hope he gets some financial assistance but the rules are really quite simple and ignorance of them is no excuse.

And surely his wife or other family member could wire him money so he is not existing on "nettles and spuds".

Balagan

It's easy to make assumptions about people. How do you know that he didn't sign off each time he went to the States and the SW didn't tire of that? And his wife explained that she earns little and sends what she can.

Have no time for people who exploit the system but this sounds like a man who lost his job and, in an attempt to get a relationship going and set up home in the States with his wife, has simply fallen through the cracks.

Different parts of the scenario may be his own fault, but surely losing his job was the main part and he can't be blamed for that.

Hope all is going well for you in London Eth0.

eth0_

I'll ignore you catty aside, Balagan.

His wife hasn't given us the full story, that is clear. If he was entitled to benefits he would get them, even if just for a limited period due to the fact he was applying for a US visa.

If he kept signing off or disappearing without informing the SW so he could travel to the USA then he was not available for work and the welfare office would take a very dim view of this.

Balagan

Whatever the complications of the events, people can't be left to starve.

And my wish for you is genuine.

LilyBeans

My apologies in not being here to reply to the posts. My original post was immediately after our visa denial and I was pretty darned depressed. Pretty glad I didn't check back in because I think some of the posts might have been a bit more than I could handle at the time.

Thanks for helping me understand the system a little better. I believe Carol called it right - he was denied because his center of interest was elsewhere.

Things are looking up. Still no benefits, but it's okay because he's found an odd job here & there, which is good.

We're working on getting him set up as self-employed, and I'm confident that we will claw our way out of this somehow. He can fix or build anything, and we're both pretty resourceful.

A positive thing to come out of this is that we have both learned that you can survive on very little. Things like tv's, cell phones & the latest styles really aren't as important as we thought they were. Living simply is actually kind of nice in ways.

Since our US visa was refused, I'll be heading over in the Spring (assuming his business takes off and he can financially support me- otherwise, we'll have to wait until things pick up).

Where there's a will, there's a way, right?

Moonbeam

Why was his visa denied? It seems like an awful thing to do to a married couple.
Have you applied for an irish visa?
Did he manage to get some help?

LilyBeans

It truly is an awful thing to do to a married couple. We are devastated.

He was denied because he ticked the wrong box on the stupid landing card. There's a question on there about crimes involving moral turpitude. Basically, they want to know if you have been arrested for a crime involving moral turpitude - period. However, the question goes on and on and on, and it's difficult for most people to understand. My husband has a 28-yr old larceny charge from stealing cigarettes which IS a crime involving moral turpitude, but as he read the question, he thought it was asking if he committed a crime that yielded a 5-year sentence. He knew that his did not - he got a 6 months suspended sentence back in 1982. So, he happily checked NO to the question. Wrong answer - the US Govt charged him with misrepresentation, which carries a lifetime ban. We filed all the right paperwork, which took every bit of money I had (and was a reason I couldn't send much to him). After $10,000 spent and two years of separation, we are no further ahead.

Sorry, I know that's probably a longer answer than you expected.

Honestly, I think we would have a great reality show here.

He didn't get any help, but he found some odd jobs that have really given us the boost we needed. I pray we have seen the worst of it.

I'm sort of looking forward to the challenge of building a business. My parents started with not much of anything and built a successful publishing company, so I know it can be done with a lot of hard work.

I am an aspiring writer - who knows - maybe all of this will come out in book form one day. :cool:

Grumpypants

I would have no clue what the flip moral turpitude means so its an easy mistake to make. Feel sorry for him for a crime 28years ago. Is there not a cut off point like 10 years without a crime gets your slate wiped clean? if not there should be for small crimes that didnt even carry a sentence.

LilyBeans

Here's the really ironic part....

When you make the visa application, you have to list all crimes you have ever committed, no matter how old, and you have to obtain your police clearance certificate and any court records for convictions.

Well, my husband, being a good Irishman , has a number of fistfights from when he was very young - 30 years ago. These did not show up on his police clearance certificate, and we were unable to obtain any court records of them. However, we knew it was our obligation to list them, and we believed that honesty was the best policy.

Wrong.

Although legally they can't deny him for those crimes, because they are not crimes involving moral turpitude, they listed them as reasons for his denial anyway, and then for good measure, they tacked that misrep charge on there. Our attorney was flabbergasted and said we certainly have a basis to appeal. But here's the catch - appeals are taking 26+ months to adjudicate. We've already lost 2 years to this process. I don't see how we could survive another 2.

I'm a good writer, but even I could not make this stuff up. :eek:

I am telling you, this makes me even more determined to make something of ourselves. I pray to God that one day, I am on the bestseller list so that I have a voice. US Immigration is so flipping screwed up right now, it's not even funny.

gustafo

Moonbeam wrote: »

Why was his visa denied? It seems like an awful thing to do to a married couple.
Have you applied for an irish visa?
Did he manage to get some help?

And it goes back to this question why don't you come to ireland or are you in the same boat having problem getting a visa for here??

LilyBeans

We did a lot of soul-searching on that one, and there are many reasons why we thought it would be better for him to come to the US. The biggest is that I care for my elderly mother. She's still semi-independent, but she'll be lonely without me, and she does need my full care once in a while because of her various health issues. But they've left us no other choice, and she keeps lecturing me that my place is with my husband, so if we can get him up & running, I will come in the Spring. I plan to make a couple trips back & forth if I can, and I'm going to get her set up with the internet (could be challenging:o) to ease the separation.

I'm a hard worker, a talented artist & writer, and a genuinely nice person, so I hope to be an asset to Ireland. :P Plus, I love the Irish - you're awesome.