1 million per week for air search and rescue

Mycroft H

Irish Independent wrote:

A FORMER head of the Air Corps, Brigadier General John O'Brien, has called for the service to be formally asked to resume vital maritime search and rescue missions

Air Corps helicopter pilots and crew last flew maritime search and rescue missions in 2004 and the work has since been carried out by civilian operators.

A lucrative new search and rescue contract worth €500m is about to be signed with a private company amid claims that it would cost a further €300m if the Air Corps resumed the role.

But Brig Gen O'Brien described the €800m estimate as "off the wall".

CHC Helicopter Corporation wrote:

Irish Coast Guard
As the sole provider of Search and Rescue helicopter services to the Irish Coast Guard, we have extensive experience in the stormy North Atlantic Sea, as well as Irish and Celtic Seas. Maintaining and operating a fleet of Sikorsky S-61N autohover helicopters at bases in Dublin, Shannon, Waterford, and Sligo in 24/7 opertions, we set the standards for safe, efficient helicopter rescue service.

We are paying Canadian company CHC for our Air search and Rescue services. At 1 million per week. A bit excessive considering we have an Air corps that perfectly capable to complete this duty and had so until 2004. Why are we outsourcing this to a non irish company especially when we can do it ourselves?

Another example of waste in this country.

ch252

Sorry for my ignorance as to how it worked before 2004, but would this mean that an air corps SAR crew would be scrambled from Baldonnel or would they be in Sahannon, Dublin, Waterford and Sligo as CHC were?

Local-womanizer

darragh-k wrote: »

Sorry for my ignorance as to how it worked before 2004, but would this mean that an air corps SAR crew would be scrambled from Baldonnel or would they be in Sahannon, Dublin, Waterford and Sligo as CHC were?

They had SAR operating out of Finner afaik. Not sure where else on the in the west though.

baronflyguy

landyman wrote: »

Why are we outsourcing this to a non irish company especially when we can do it ourselves?

Another example of waste in this country.

Good discussion about this on Joe Duffy at the moment. I'm sure it will be available on podcast later at this web link.
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_liveline.xml

From listening to the discussion it sounds like the Canadian company CHC, or any outsourced company are much more efficient to deal with emergencies. In the past if the coastguard had to call on air corp service they could be unavailable to help because they are transporting ministers, air craft is getting repaired because they have technical difficulties etc.

One caller to the show mentioned that there was a botched job done by a dept of defence minister when this was originally outsourced or up for renewal and a french company was going to bring the irish government to court for the way they were tendering for the contract. If you listen to the podcast it will explain it better.

My take on the it is they the air corp personnel would love to do it but the type of vehicles that are purchased/hired for the air corp (by admin personnel) are inefficient. It wasn't long in the news that the dept of defence purchased/hired transport helos for Chad only to find out they didnt have a proper licence to allow our troops to be transported in them. I would have fired the person who was in charge of that, there and then on the spot for such waste of tax payer money.

I for one am glad it is outsourced because civil servant admin staff make an ass of buying things.

Morlar

There has to be a way to change whatever needs to be changed in order that we use our own assets instead of throwing 360 million abroad every single year (if those figures are accurate).
+ €36 billion in 10 yrs and we will have nothing to show for it - no build up of assets, talent and experience, no improved procedures and additional training opportunities etc etc.

starin out the window

I think its nuts the air corp have a fleet of helicopters for the task but we are going to pay a foregin firm to do it for us, how else are the guys in the corp going to keep sharp in this type of mission if they are not the ones flying it.
It kinda makes a large part of the corp redundant

I really dont think it would cost 800 million to get the air corp back on the job again, to think that there are cuts been made everywhere in public spending i just dont think it can be justified

petergfiffin

landyman wrote: »

... At 1 million per day. A bit excessive considering we have an Air corps that perfectly capable to complete this duty and had so until 2004...

You may be looking at a newer article but the one I found on the Indo
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cuts-to-rescue-helicopter-service-put-lives-at-risk-2116725.html gives a quote of €50m per year so approx €1m per week which when you consider aircraft costs, crew costs etc isn't bad value for money

starin out the window wrote: »

I think its nuts the air corp have a fleet of helicopters for the task but we are going to pay a foregin firm to do it for us

Quite simply we don't have - and never had - aircraft up to the job. Even before privatisation what we had were short-range day and night helis (Dauphin) on the West coast and daylight only (Allouette) on the East coast. When the Air Corps were doing the job there were continued calls for medium range helis (Seakings like the CHC ones), for better or worse we only got a proper service when it was handed over to private operators.

starin out the window wrote: »

It kinda makes a large part of the corp redundant

Yup...I agree! I think over the next couple of years you will see them coming under increasing pressure to privatise other functions like Garda Air Support, Maritime Patrol, Air Ambulance. As Baronfly touched on, one advantage is the resources are available for what they're intended for and you don't have ministers diverting them for "critical" work like opening supermarkets;)

Klunk001

Lets assume the figure are correct 500,000,000 euro divided by 10 years is 50,000,000 divided by 365 days is 136,986 euro a day, a long way off one million euro a day. The plot is starting to be lost here. The figures been quoted are not accurate, it does not cost anywhere near a million a day to provide this current service. Yes the private Company might be foreign but it employs alot of Irish people who contribute to this society in more ways than one. Can the civil sevice come back in and take private Irish jobs, if you think so then that is fine. If the AC want SAR back, well then they are going to have to take a good long hard look at themselves first. None of this in at 9am, half day Wednesdays and Fridays, weekends off, an hour and a half for breakfast, an hour and a half for lunch and finish up at 4, I have heard them all from the exer's I know.

The facts of the matter are approx 100 people supply a service to the state (IRCG), helo's are available 24/7 365 days a year with something like 98% to 99% availability. As I understand it the AC has approx 850 on its books, How many of their aircraft come anywhere close to the figures I have just quoted above, the answer, none. Yes, not even for top cover when needed.

Yes, the AC provided SAR for 40 years, but it all fell apart some year ago in a very public way, and only have themselves to blame for that. The servicability of their 139's is not good as I understand it. Last winter during the BIG freeze and before that the flooding around the country out of a fleet of six 139's, what was available was a joke.

Curently the service that is provided is from four bases 24/7. If people want the AC back at SAR the facts are, there will be reduction in the service, to put it crudely the current fleet of 135's and 139's are allouettes with an extra engine in the context of AWSAR, they do not have the systems on board to carry out All weather SAR in this part of the world, that was also found out with the Dauphine. We as a nation under international laws are expected to provide a decent SAR service, something we didn't do for many years.

We depended on the RAF and RN to fill the gaps on more than one occasion when the AC were not available.Now we can hold our heads up high and mix it with the best, and before somebody comes in with the RAF/RN, or USAF still do jobs here, these helo's are usually transiting though to go to areas of UK responsibility.

Mycroft H

Sorry bout the inaccuracy there......

Ment to be a million per week, not a day. Bit of a mistake of me dividing figures.

boomer_ie

Klunk001 wrote: »

The plot is starting to be lost here. The figures been quoted are not accurate, it does not cost anywhere near a million a day to provide this current service. Yes the private Company might be foreign but it employs alot of Irish people who contribute to this society in more ways than one. Can the civil sevice come back in and take private Irish jobs, if you think so then that is fine. If the AC want SAR back, well then they are going to have to take a good long hard look at themselves first. None of this in at 9am, half day Wednesdays and Fridays, weekends off, an hour and a half for breakfast, an hour and a half for lunch and finish up at 4, I have heard them all from the exer's I know.

The facts of the matter are approx 100 people supply a service to the state (IRCG), helo's are available 24/7 365 days a year with something like 98% to 99% availability. As I understand it the AC has approx 850 on its books, How many of their aircraft come anywhere close to the figures I have just quoted above, the answer, none. Yes, not even for top cover when needed.

Yes, the AC provided SAR for 40 years, but it all fell apart some year ago in a very public way, and only have themselves to blame for that. The servicability of their 139's is not good as I understand it. Last winter during the freeze and before that the flooding out of a fleet of six 139's, what was available was a joke.

Curently the service that is provided is from four bases 24/7. If people want the AC back at SAR the facts are, there will be reduction in the service, to put it crudely the current fleet of 135's and 139's are allouettes with an extra engine in the context of AWSAR, they do not have the systems on board to carry out All weather SAR in this part of the world, that was also found out with the Dauphine. We as a nation under international laws are expected to provide a decent SAR service, something we didn't do for many years.

We depended on the RAF and RN to fill the gaps on more than one occasion when the AC were not available.Now we can hold our heads up high and mix it with the best, and before somebody comes in with the RAF/RN, or USAF still do jobs here, these helo's are usually transiting though to go to areas of UK responsibility.

In defence of the Air Corps here, they only have the fleet of 6 and all of these need maintenance etc. CHC on the other hand can rotate assets in from their UK bases to cover maintenance hence the 98/99% availability so they have a lot more than 4/5 helicopters that it might appear that they have.

Klunk001

Boomer,
CHC also have a fleet of six SAR heli's here, four frontline, two as backup. No heli's from the UK come in here to cover due maintainence. That 98%/99% figure is using the six heli's based here in country. That is why it is contracted out to the civies.

Delancey

Don't forget the Air Corps put the nail in their own coffin with their ' Green Flu ' protest ( remember that ) - they ensured they would not be awarded the SAR contract.

murf313

delancey42 wrote: »

Don't forget the Air Corps put the nail in their own coffin with their ' Green Flu ' protest ( remember that ) - they ensured they would not be awarded the SAR contract.

The "protest" you speak of was because the higer ups in the aircorps neglected to properly fund the servicing of SAR equipment. (and other issues)
I dont know about you but I wouldnt want to be dangling from a heli on a wire that hadnt been serviced.
SAR squadron is the most decorated unit in the Irish Defence Forces and a an awful lot of people owe their lives to SAR crews. so a bit of respect please......

Terrontress

There used to be Gardai standing on the N1 with what I would have described as Uzis whenever RAF and Royal Navy would be flying in to Dublin Airport following Search and Rescue operations.

Delancey

murf313 wrote: »

The "protest" you speak of was because the higer ups in the aircorps neglected to properly fund the servicing of SAR equipment. (and other issues)
I dont know about you but I wouldnt want to be dangling from a heli on a wire that hadnt been serviced.
SAR squadron is the most decorated unit in the Irish Defence Forces and a an awful lot of people owe their lives to SAR crews. so a bit of respect please......

Highly decorated they may be but that should not insulate them from scrutiny and , perish the thought , criticism.
The other issues you refer to wouldn't relate to a dispute about the payment of certain allowances ?
As I recall and was told at the time the '' Green Flu '' was much more of a pay dispute than a ' Safety ' dispute.

murf313

delancey42 wrote: »

Highly decorated they may be but that should not insulate them from scrutiny and , perish the thought , criticism.
The other issues you refer to wouldn't relate to a dispute about the payment of certain allowances ?
As I recall and was told at the time the '' Green Flu '' was much more of a pay dispute than a ' Safety ' dispute.

No it wouldnt actually.... but one issue for example would be the inadequate resources deployed in Tramore when the 4 brave guys on dauphin 248 perished when returning from a successful mission to save someones life.
You cant believe everything people tell you, im ex air corps myself and know some of these guys. It wasnt about money.

Go mBairidis Beo.

texas12

The Air Corp has no trained SAR personal, pilots or national PHECC rated paramedics winching crew.Preforming SAR is not user friendly. It requires constant training and an ethos of flight safety that is unquestionable. Not rank driven. The reason the Air Corp stopped doing SAR was on the back of a judical review taken by SAR rescue crews into safety and the safety culture or lack of it within the Air Corp. All very public. The helicopters purchased by the Air Corp are off the shelf AW 139 painted green. They are not specifically equiped with the latest equipment in relation to SAR operations such as duel hoist, FLIR,AIS, NITE SUN. They are also much smaller than the current IRCG S61. Which will in the future be replaced with the highest spec most capable SAR helicopter available in the S92. The UK government have decided to get rid of there AW 139 because they are deemed unsuitable for South and South East coast UK operations.
Cost. IAC 850 personal 26 aircraft 8 of which helicopters.
CHC Ireland 6 helicopters. 26 staff per base. 24/7 365 days per year. Serviceability rate 98.7% .Audited by the competant Authority, the customer and internally.
CHC is safer, more efficent and cheaper. And we understand you will get your ass handed to you if you try bluff your way in this game.

And by the way
http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-06-10.205.0&s=SAR#g207.0.r

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-06-02.812.0&s=SAR#g814.0.r

ch252

I'm pretty sure the air corps do have paramedics. They certainly have an ambulance and Fire Crew anyway..

Klunk001

I'm pretty sure the air corps do have paramedics. They certainly have an ambulance and Fire Crew anyway.



The words Texas 12 used were "national PHECC rated paramedics winching crew".There is a difference d-k.

Hooch

texas12 wrote: »

The Air Corp has no trained SAR personal, pilots or national PHECC rated paramedics winching crew.Preforming SAR is not user friendly. It requires constant training and an ethos of flight safety that is unquestionable. Not rank driven. The reason the Air Corp stopped doing SAR was on the back of a judical review taken by SAR rescue crews into safety and the safety culture or lack of it within the Air Corp. All very public. The helicopters purchased by the Air Corp are off the shelf AW 139 painted green. They are not specifically equiped with the latest equipment in relation to SAR operations such as duel hoist, FLIR,AIS, NITE SUN. They are also much smaller than the current IRCG S61. Which will in the future be replaced with the highest spec most capable SAR helicopter available in the S92. The UK government have decided to get rid of there AW 139 because they are deemed unsuitable for South and South East coast UK operations.
Cost. IAC 850 personal 26 aircraft 8 of which helicopters.
CHC Ireland 6 helicopters. 26 staff per base. 24/7 365 days per year. Serviceability rate 98.7% .Audited by the competant Authority, the customer and internally.
CHC is safer, more efficent and cheaper. And we understand you will get your ass handed to you if you try bluff your way in this game.

And by the way
http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-06-10.205.0&s=SAR#g207.0.r

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-06-02.812.0&s=SAR#g814.0.r

Great post, +1

darragh-k wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the air corps do have paramedics. They certainly have an ambulance and Fire Crew anyway..

I dont think they have Paramedics, although I may be wrong all that did the old EMT course and could do the convertion course to Para left the Air Coprs. PDF in the Curragh and the Naval service have Paramedics

ch252

nice guy always wrote: »

I dont think they have Paramedics, although I may be wrong all that did the old EMT course and could do the convertion course to Para left the Air Coprs. PDF in the Curragh and the Naval service have Paramedics

Ah I see, that's probably what I'm mistaking it with

murf313

The air corps have a medical section which is manned by army trained medics with ambulance course done. There is a medical corps ambulance stationed in Bal.
Some of the heli crew are phecc emts also. afaik any of the lads who would have done the old emt course and were eligible for upskilling are gone now,

Bodan

CHC is safer, more efficent and cheaper. And we understand you will get your ass handed to you if you try bluff your way in this game.

And that is the real Tragedy, that the state cannot provide a similar standard of service at a cheaper price. Baring in mind that part of the 50 million a year price tag, has chc's profits built into it.

Klunk001

CHC SAR crew commended For dramatic Irish Sea rescue

Helihub RSS Feed
CHC

2 Jul, 10 The crew of an emergency search and rescue helicopter has been awarded the Best of Irish Award for rescuing a stricken pilot when his light aircraft crashed into the Irish Sea.
The six-strong crew of R117, employed by CHC Helicopter and based at Waterford, was presented with the accolade at the awards which took place at the Burlington Hotel in Dublin last night.
The star-studded ceremony, which also saw the Irish Rugby team recognised for their outstanding win at the 2009 RBS Six Nations tournament, celebrates those who have excelled in the past year and contributed in a positive way to the people of Ireland.
Captain Dara Fitzpatrick, co-pilot Ronan Flanagan, winch operator Neville Murphy and winchman Keith Devaney were all present to collect the award. The remaining members of the team, engineers Martin Dennehy and Colm McCloughry, were unable to attend.
“We are delighted and honoured to have been presented with this award which is really the cherry on the cake for us,” said Capt Fitzpatrick.
“When you hear a report of an aircraft ditching in the sea you immediately think worst-case scenario. We didn’t know what we were facing so to have been able to retrieve a casualty alive from the water was fantastic.”
The team was returning from a training exercise when they were alerted to a mayday call at around 5pm on August 11, last year.
The crew the British Orchid Atlantic rowing boat, who were navigating round Britain, called the Coast Guard after seeing an aircraft crash into the water at Tuskar Rock, off the South Wexford coast.
Low on fuel, the S61 rescue helicopter quickly landed, refuelled and was on route to the scene within 10 minutes. As they made their way to the location, reports were received of wreckage in the water and a suspected survivor.
On arrival, they saw the pilot standing waist-deep in water on the wing of the stricken craft which was rapidly succumbing to the waves. Winchman Keith Devaney was lowered down and was able to secure the man and winch him to safety moments before the single-engine aircraft sank.
The sole occupant of the plane, which was being flown from England to Wexford, the pilot was flown to shore and taken by ambulance to hospital. Despite his ordeal, he had miraculously escaped serious injury.
“In terms of technical challenges we have had to deal with some far tougher jobs,” added Capt Fitzpatrick.
“We were fortunate that the conditions were relatively calm and that the pilot hadn’t suffered any serious injuries on impact. Combined with the extensive mission training we undergo, these factors made for a textbook rescue.”
Chris Reynolds, Director of the Irish Coast Guard said: “I am pleased to see the men and women of the Irish Coast Guard recognised for their professionalism. The service operates 365 days a year in all types of conditions and this award is testament to the continued hard work, training and commitment of the whole team.”
Noel Dempsey, Ireland’s Minister for Transport, also praised the team for their heroic efforts.
“I warmly congratulate the Waterford Coast Guard helicopter crew, for a very well-deserved award,” he said.
“The speed at which they responded to this incident, assessed the scene and acted, certainly helped save a life. But this award isn’t just for the crew on the Waterford helicopter that day though.
“It’s for all of their backroom team, including the engineers who ensure that our aircrafts are safe to fly, our replacement crews, and everyone who supports the work of the Waterford team, and all our other teams around the country.
“Each day hundreds of Coast Guard crews, whether in lifeboats, helicopters or involved in our other patrols around the coastline, selflessly put their lives at risk in the service of others.
“I want to commend you all and thank you, on behalf of the Government for your role in this important, lifesaving work. Well done again.”